Page 2 of 66 FirstFirst 12341252 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 984

Thread: Asylum seekers

  1. #16
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,570
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  2. #17
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,570
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I find that in this debate not everyone shares the same views of obligations and human rights and therefore I am happy to engage people on their factual claims whatever their moral assumptions (or even if they have an implied assumption that Australia should violate commitments it has made).

    Unfortunately to this point Michael seems only interested in making unsubstantiated slurs against genuine refugees and then deflecting to points about professional migrants and international students that do nothing to illustrate his original derogatory claims.
    It is related. One of the arguments that I've seen in defence of accepting more refugees (including illegal ones) is that they are good for our economy. In fact, Ian has pointed it out in one of his posts. It is very clear that if we are to to bring more people to Australia (and I agree -population increase is good), we can do it in several ways. in Project Management & Strategy Management - we often use a decision support tool/approach called Balanced Score Card. In a nutshell, it compares different options available to get the outcome we desire and to do so in most efficient way. What I am doing here is making direct comparision between two option of increasing our population & bringing more knowledge and skills to Australia . To me, the relationship is rather transparent.
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Atlanta, GA (formerly Brisbane, and before that Wellington, NZ)
    Posts
    19,413
    None other than Smurfo gave a lecture about one successful settlement of the Karen people from Burma in Nhill, the birthplace of David Leyonhjelm, mainly as workers in the Luv-a-Duck food processing facility:

    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  4. #19
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,595
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    It is related. One of the arguments that I've seen in defence of accepting more refugees (including illegal ones) is that they are good for our economy. In fact, Ian has pointed it out in one of his posts. It is very clear that if we are to to bring more people to Australia (and I agree -population increase is good), we can do it in several ways. in Project Management & Strategy Management - we often use a decision support tool/approach called Balanced Score Card. In a nutshell, it compares different options available to get the outcome we desire and to do so in most efficient way. What I am doing here is making direct comparision between two option of increasing our population & bringing more knowledge and skills to Australia . To me, the relationship is rather transparent.
    The problem here is that you are creating a false dichotomy between 1. bringing more skilled migrants to Australia and 2. (in potential effect) accepting more genuine refugees. You have provided no evidence that we cannot do both and as such your comparison of "different options available" assumes that they are mutually exclusive. You say that population increase is good, so on that basis two lots of population increase is - all else being equal - better than one. Moreover if population increase is good then you should be welcoming more refugees unless a negative net impact of their arrival - outweighing the benefit of population increase - can be proven.

    And, once again, a person who is accepted into Australia as a genuine refugee can hardly be an "illegal" refugee by definition. The vast majority of asylum seekers whose claims are processed are ruled to be genuine.

    (I have a different view about population increase in Australia. I think it is good only if it does not cause urban sprawl into bushland as urban sprawl into bushland is very environmentally damaging in this country. If it happens via urban infill or on already degraded land I am fine with that. But refugees are a small part of the population picture anyway.)

  5. #20
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,968
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Somali and Sudanese refugees do not arrive by boat, but are accepted under our humanitarian intake program. Their numbers are miniscule - http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliame...#_Toc410727192

  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,570
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    The problem here is that you are creating a false dichotomy between 1. bringing more skilled migrants to Australia and 2. (in potential effect) accepting more genuine refugees. You have provided no evidence that we cannot do both and as such your comparison of "different options available" assumes that they are mutually exclusive. You say that population increase is good, so on that basis two lots of population increase is - all else being equal - better than one. Moreover if population increase is good then you should be welcoming more refugees unless a negative net impact of their arrival - outweighing the benefit of population increase - can be proven.

    And, once again, a person who is accepted into Australia as a genuine refugee can hardly be an "illegal" refugee by definition. The vast majority of asylum seekers whose claims are processed are ruled to be genuine.

    (I have a different view about population increase in Australia. I think it is good only if it does not cause urban sprawl into bushland as urban sprawl into bushland is very environmentally damaging in this country. If it happens via urban infill or on already degraded land I am fine with that. But refugees are a small part of the population picture anyway.)
    1) It is an evident trend (immigration data) that accepting more refugees results in accepting less skilled migrants, so the relationship is rather direct
    2) Those who come ''by boat'' rather than apply to be accepted as ''refugees'' are breaking Australia laws by attempting to cross our borders illegally and once they arrive we are being ''bullied'' into accepting them
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  7. #22
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,968
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    My problem is: 1) many do not want to work as opposed to international students/graduates who do! 2) poor level of education/skills/English. After they gain PR, unemployment rate is still high 3) crime rate is high (the article that you provided link to does not prove the opposite ) 4) high cost of accepting them as opposed to students/graduates who are self-sufficient and contribute money to the economy.
    Many don't want to work? How do you arrive at that? The indicative data reflect the opposite, after the initial period of resettlemet and learning the language and ropes - more get-up-and-go than skilled migrants: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2...ants-australia

  8. #23
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,595
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    1) It is an evident trend (immigration data) that accepting more refugees results in accepting less skilled migrants, so the relationship is rather direct
    If that is so then it presumably results from a policy that plays them off against each other by accepting only a certain total. But even if that is the case you are not obliged to support that policy.

    2) Those who come ''by boat'' rather than apply to be accepted as ''refugees'' are breaking Australia laws by attempting to cross our borders illegally and once they arrive we are being ''bullied'' into accepting them
    What offence are they supposedly committing under Australian law? Have any been charged with this offence?

  9. #24
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,968
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    What offence are they supposedly committing under Australian law? Have any been charged with this offence?
    Michael alleges they are trying to cross Australia's borders illegally. They're not, of course - they are attempting to reach the border and apply for asylum, which is completely legal.

  10. #25
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,968

  11. #26
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,570
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    What about those smugglers who take money to bring them here....how should they be treated then? given some kind of an award?
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  12. #27
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,968
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    What about those smugglers who take money to bring them here....how should they be treated then? given some kind of an award?
    Our policy of indefinite detention offshore punishes the victims, not the smugglers.

  13. #28
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    12,570
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    Our policy of indefinite detention offshore punishes the victims, not the smugglers.
    ''Victims''...or people who pay money to get on the boat to come here? I think we are lucky that the flood of illegal ''visitors'' that we get is smaller than the one in Europe. Btw, in Europe people who are supposed to be ''victims of war'' (and as we know not all of them are) - refuse to stay in Greece an all want to move on to Germany etc. When you are really running for your life - you should be happy be safe anywhere you can get food and shelter.

    Here in Australia, amazing things also happens. We get illegal ''refugees'' from Sri Lanka, Iran etc. I have students/friends from these 2 countries and it is news to them that there is currently ''civil war'' in their countries and that people are unsafe.

    Secondly, my mum was teaching English classes at AMES some years ago, and there were some cases of students (so-called refugees) initially hiding the facts that their english was fluent because they came here with false documents claiming that they are from a little troubled village while in reality - they were from places like Teheran and had University degrees. One turned out to be an established and well-known drug dealer in his motherland
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  14. #29
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,569
    The fact that some people seeking asylum do not have a valid claim is not contested. What is contested is that all asylum seekers are bogus. We should not punish all asylum seekers because of the sins of the few.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  15. #30
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,968
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    ''Victims''...or people who pay money to get on the boat to come here? I think we are lucky that the flood of illegal ''visitors'' that we get is smaller than the one in Europe. Btw, in Europe people who are supposed to be ''victims of war'' (and as we know not all of them are) - refuse to stay in Greece an all want to move on to Germany etc. When you are really running for your life - you should be happy be safe anywhere you can get food and shelter.
    They pay to risk their own lives and the lives of their families to escape from where they are - where they are has to be pretty bad! You persist in calling them illegals, when they have the right to seek asylum under international law. They are breaking no laws. Only the smugglers are operating illegally by transporting people without visas to Australia.

    Here in Australia, amazing things also happens. We get illegal ''refugees'' from Sri Lanka, Iran etc. I have students/friends from these 2 countries and it is news to them that there is currently ''civil war'' in their countries and that people are unsafe.
    They are fleeing from persecution, not civil war. Tamils are not safe in Sri Lanka since the genocide began, non-Muslims, homosexuals and other minorities are not safe in Iran, Hazaras and Taliban opponents are not safe in Afghanistan

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •