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Thread: Asylum seekers

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Allahu Akbar???
    LOL

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post

    German society is not being "destroyed" by asylum seekers - that's ridiculous!
    MichaelBaron did say "is destructive to" rather than "destroyed", to be fair.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So do you agree this bastard should have been kicked out of the country back to Syria or wherever he came from? Also, do you agree we need to be extra-careful processing these application to check how genuine these refugees are and what their intent is?
    No what I am saying is that individual applied for asylum and was rejected. As he has also turned out to be dangerous it is proof that the system works no proof that granting asylum to bona fide refugees represents an unacceptable risk to society.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahane_S View Post
    MichaelBaron did say "is destructive to" rather than "destroyed", to be fair.
    Luckily, you are correct (I am saying luckily cause do not want to see European society and economy destroyed)! It is not destroyed yet and will hopefully survive. However, impact of the refugees on both the economy and the social climate is clearly negative!
    Last edited by MichaelBaron; 26-07-2016 at 12:55 AM.
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  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Allahu Akbar???
    My Muslim friends are actually more horrified by the terrorism than anyone! Terrorists are simply using ''religion'' as a shield. My friends from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey etc. are a great asset to our community. They are well-educated and hardworking professionals and they are more opposed to terrorism than anyone! Furthermore, I am actually in favour of INCREASING immigration rather than decreasing it and Australia is luckily a very appealing option for many outstanding individuals to come to. Instead of bringing God knows whom into the country we should instead utilize the resources we spend on those who destabilize our society towards simplifying the path towards PR for international graduates from the Australian Universities as well as take more professional migrants from around the world! Our relatively high living standard is perfect for attracting top-notch pros from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri-Lanka, India etc. However, I would invite Pakistanis who are working for IBM Pakistan rather than Pakistanis who are ...pretending to be Syrians .

    It is funny how some of my ''opponents'' here keep playing Race & Religion cards to argue that my views are discriminatory. If you notice on other threads, I am equally outspoken against the so-called Australians. My point is...I want to be building a knowledge society of people who strive to learn more, work hard& smart and respect laws of the country they are living in.
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  6. #216
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    Here is some good news Michael...

    There’s no real link between immigration and terrorism, study finds

    By Ishaan Tharoor February 17 (Washington Post)

    Today in the West, it seems almost impossible to have a conversation about migration without also talking about terrorism.

    ...

    But there's nothing inevitable about the arrival of foreigners leading to extremist violence, as a new academic study shows.

    The paper -- "Does Immigration Induce Terrorism?" -- was published this week in the University of Chicago's Journal of Politics. As a precis of the study explains, the researchers gauged the level of risk using three decades worth of "data on migration inflows from the World Bank, weighted by the number of terrorist attacks in the country of origin of the immigrants."

    While they did find some correlation between the instability caused by a refugee crisis and the threat of terrorism, this smaller and far more temporary phenomenon should be seen alongside the overwhelming proof of history.

    "When migrants move from one country to another, they carry skills, knowledge and perspectives, which stimulate technological innovation, the diffusion of new ideas and economic growth," writes Vincenzo Bove, an associate professor of politics at the University of Warwick in Britain and the lead author of the study, in an email to WorldViews.

    "If terrorism and economic development are indeed related more migration decreases the opportunity for terrorism. So banning all inflows of migrants and pursuing overly restrictive policies affecting all immigrants seems to put a country at a disadvantage," Bove writes.

    This seems an intuitive, obvious point, but it's gone missing in the current moment. The study also stresses the extent to which terrorist organizations exploit the vulnerabilities of immigrant communities and migrant networks back home. Enacting broad-brush, heavy-handed immigration measures would perhaps only make these now-demonized communities more prone to radicalization.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Luckily, you are correct! It is not destroyed yet and will hopefully survive. However, impact of the refugees on both the economy and the social climate is clearly negative!
    I did say "being destroyed", which I think is a reasonable paraphrase of what you said: "... uncotrolled influx of asylum seekers is destructive to any society and this is what we are observing in Germany now ..." - but I shouldn't have used quotation marks.

    Germany survived Nazism, Communism, and two World Wars, so I think it will survive a few refugees! For example, it is estimated the refugees will cost Germany about 20 billion euros per year; but that will hardly be noticed in a 3 trillion euro economy.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Here is some good news Michael...

    There’s no real link between immigration and terrorism, study finds

    By Ishaan Tharoor February 17 (Washington Post)

    Today in the West, it seems almost impossible to have a conversation about migration without also talking about terrorism.

    ...

    But there's nothing inevitable about the arrival of foreigners leading to extremist violence, as a new academic study shows.

    The paper -- "Does Immigration Induce Terrorism?" -- was published this week in the University of Chicago's Journal of Politics. As a precis of the study explains, the researchers gauged the level of risk using three decades worth of "data on migration inflows from the World Bank, weighted by the number of terrorist attacks in the country of origin of the immigrants."

    While they did find some correlation between the instability caused by a refugee crisis and the threat of terrorism, this smaller and far more temporary phenomenon should be seen alongside the overwhelming proof of history.

    "When migrants move from one country to another, they carry skills, knowledge and perspectives, which stimulate technological innovation, the diffusion of new ideas and economic growth," writes Vincenzo Bove, an associate professor of politics at the University of Warwick in Britain and the lead author of the study, in an email to WorldViews.

    "If terrorism and economic development are indeed related more migration decreases the opportunity for terrorism. So banning all inflows of migrants and pursuing overly restrictive policies affecting all immigrants seems to put a country at a disadvantage," Bove writes.

    This seems an intuitive, obvious point, but it's gone missing in the current moment. The study also stresses the extent to which terrorist organizations exploit the vulnerabilities of immigrant communities and migrant networks back home. Enacting broad-brush, heavy-handed immigration measures would perhaps only make these now-demonized communities more prone to radicalization.
    Good! And I do agree with Dr Bove's assessment of migration. This is yet another reason to treat our immigration policy as an opportunity to stimulate innovation
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  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I did say "being destroyed", which I think is a reasonable paraphrase of what you said: "... uncotrolled influx of asylum seekers is destructive to any society and this is what we are observing in Germany now ..." - but I shouldn't have used quotation marks.

    Germany survived Nazism, Communism, and two World Wars, so I think it will survive a few refugees! For example, it is estimated the refugees will cost Germany about 20 billion euros per year; but that will hardly be noticed in a 3 trillion euro economy.
    Limited to 20 billion subject to the refugees integrating into both economy and socity within 1 year I assume. Also, what about social costs? Anyway, I assume there are some surveys/studies being run in Germany right now about how they feel about the influx of refugees. Looking forward to seeing these findings soon. I wonder if responses recieved will be similar to how people felt about taking the very same refugees half a year or so ago...
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  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    ...Instead of bringing God knows whom into the country we should instead utilize the resources we spend on those who destabilize our society towards simplifying the path towards PR for international graduates from the Australian Universities as well as take more professional migrants from around the world! Our relatively high living standard is perfect for attracting top-notch pros from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri-Lanka, India etc. However, I would invite Pakistanis who are working for IBM Pakistan rather than Pakistanis who are ...pretending to be Syrians .
    But these are separate issues. Professional migrants are covered under the skilled migration program (and similar programs); refugees are covered under humanitarian programs. Nobody here (that I'm aware of) has been arguing against an increase in skilled migrants.

    Only a very tiny minority of refugees "destabilize our society", of course. And even completely eliminating all refugee programs won't necessarily lead to the money being spent on skilled migration.

    However, anybody who wants to increase immigration shouldn't be suggesting that people from overseas could be potentially dangerous. The most likely outcome of that is a reduction in all immigration.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Limited to 20 billion subject to the refugees integrating into both economy and socity within 1 year I assume. Also, what about social costs? Anyway, I assume there are some surveys/studies being run in Germany right now about how they feel about the influx of refugees. Looking forward to seeing these findings soon. I wonder if responses recieved will be similar to how people felt about taking the very same refugees half a year or so ago...
    Estimates vary, but the cost could be an ongoing 20 billion euros per year, out of Germany's 3 trillion euro per year GDP. I doubt it assumes integration within one year. And I'm not sure how you estimate social costs.

    Fortunately, politicians don't pay a huge amount of attention to public attitudes to immigration. If they did, Australia would still have the White Australia policy!

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    However, anybody who wants to increase immigration shouldn't be suggesting that people from overseas could be potentially dangerous. The most likely outcome of that is a reduction in all immigration.
    Sorry, But I do not see why suggesting that some people/socio-economic groups from overseas can be potentially dangarous should decrease trust in other socio-economic groups who come here after their backgrounds and track records have been examined carefully.

    Link between the professional immigration and refugee issues: We do need to increase population and have more professionals and para-professionals. With the professional migration programs, the focus is on skills. Also, professional migrants have virtually 0% unemployment rate and integrate into society easily (irrespectively of which country they are from, religion etc.). Unfortunately as I already mentioned in this thread several times, this is often not the case with refugees - particularly the ones who arrive by boat and some of them are seeing it as a ticket to life-long unemployment benefits rather than an escape from a place where their lives are in danger.
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  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Estimates vary, but the cost could be an ongoing 20 billion euros per year, out of Germany's 3 trillion euro per year GDP. I doubt it assumes integration within one year. And I'm not sure how you estimate social costs.

    Fortunately, politicians don't pay a huge amount of attention to public attitudes to immigration. If they did, Australia would still have the White Australia policy!

    I think public attitude is probably on your side these days rather than mine and it may be other way around . A lot of vocal support (including ongoing rallies in Melbourne CBD) to take more refugees into the country.
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  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Sorry, But I do not see why suggesting that some people/socio-economic groups from overseas can be potentially dangarous should decrease trust in other socio-economic groups who come here after their backgrounds and track records have been examined carefully.
    Because you are thinking logically. However, recent Australian history - as well as European history, of course - has demonstrated that prejudice doesn't make logical distinctions. People who are opposed to Muslims are opposed to all Muslim immigration, not just to Muslim refugees. And the more Muslims are demonised (as you are doing to Muslim refugees), the stronger anti-Muslim prejudice becomes. And because it's not logical, this prejudice gets applied to Asian 'foreigners' in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Link between the professional immigration and refugee issues: We do need to increase population and have more professionals and para-professionals. With the professional migration programs, the focus is on skills. Also, professional migrants have virtually 0% unemployment rate and integrate into society easily (irrespectively of which country they are from, religion etc.). Unfortunately as I already mentioned in this thread several times, this is often not the case with refugees - particularly the ones who arrive by boat and some of them are seeing it as a ticket to life-long unemployment benefits rather than an escape from a place where their lives are in danger.
    Suppose all this is true. If your aim is to increase skilled migration, why do your posts largely consist of attacks on refugees, instead of arguments for an increase in skilled migration? As I've said, there is no necessary link - we can increase skilled migration (which we all want) without decreasing the refugee intake.

  15. #225
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    The other problem is that with the rise of populist politicians globally that increased negative perception of Muslim communities will make the problems of radicalisation worse. Politicians like Hanson, Trump, etc with their anti-Muslim rhetoric and blaming the incumbent governments for the present level of terrorism will lead to more terrorism, not less. The reason being those seeking to radicalise Muslims in Australia and the US will find that task easier if the local Muslim community feels under siege by the mainstream. Start blocking Muslim migration (or movement), establish a database of all Muslims or install cameras in mosques, as these politicians have suggested, and this will heighten, not ease, tensions in these communities.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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