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Thread: Asylum seekers

  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Asylum seekers

    Australia’s Offshore Cruelty
    New York Times
    23.5.16

    ...Scrap a policy that shames a nation with its pointless cruelty.

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    Easy for NY Times to write about a policy in another country. Somehow these articles ''touch heart'' but rarely do they discuss negative impact of refugee intake not only on economy (both short & long term) but also on crime rate...
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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Especially as that same newspaper whitewashed Stalin's show trials and the Holodomor.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Easy for NY Times to write about a policy in another country. Somehow these articles ''touch heart'' but rarely do they discuss negative impact of refugee intake not only on economy (both short & long term) but also on crime rate...
    It's easy for MichaelBaron to pontificate. Perhaps he also supports the compulsory sterilisation of the dim-witted to avoid the negative impact not only on the economy but also on crime rate...
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  5. #5
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Easy for NY Times to write about a policy in another country. Somehow these articles ''touch heart'' but rarely do they discuss negative impact of refugee intake not only on economy (both short & long term) but also on crime rate...
    Ill-informed. The long-term effect on the economy is very positive and negligible on the crime rate

    Accepting refugees makes the most economic sense

    Few asylum seekers charged with crime

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    Ill-informed. The long-term effect on the economy is very positive and negligible on the crime rate

    Accepting refugees makes the most economic sense

    Few asylum seekers charged with crime
    Lets compare refugee intake with the intake of professional migrants and see which group performs better in every department . Or make it easier for international students who come to australia to study to get PR instead. It makes much more economic sense!
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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Lets compare refugee intake with the intake of professional migrants and see which group performs better in every department .
    That's hardly a fair comparison. Professional migrants are specifically chosen because they are expected to perform very well. Refugees would not need to get near matching them to make a net positive contribution. So where's your evidence for a net negative contribution? At the moment it just sounds like an empty slogan from the Dutton or even Hanson playbook.

    Or make it easier for international students who come to australia to study to get PR instead. It makes much more economic sense!
    Is this really an either/or choice?
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    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    The comparison is completely beside the point in any case since (as is the case with the dim-witted) economic arguments do not remove the individual's human rights nor Australian's obligations to respect them.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    The comparison is completely beside the point in any case since (as is the case with the dim-witted) economic arguments do not remove the individual's human rights nor Australian's obligations to respect them.
    Exactly. I can't understand people who migrate here seeking a better life yet begrudge it of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    Exactly. I can't understand people who migrate here seeking a better life yet begrudge it of others.
    I can understand. Its people who migrate here by legal means and from day one start contribute to society by creating and doing jobs and paying taxes well above average. As someone who is heavily involved with International student communities I can assure you that economic and social impact of professional migration is evident not only from the statistical data available ( crime rate, unemployment, life-styles) -but also from observing how their lives unfold in Australia. I have recently had 14 MBA and MIS students from Kenia and Nigeria graduating from the uni where I teach. It as has been months since they graduated and they are still fighting for Australian PR (they will get it eventually though) and in NO POINT IN TIME they received any tax payer's funding. However, all 14 have jobs to support themselves. 9 of them (while on a Student or Bridging Visa) already have professional jobs!
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  11. #11
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Its people who migrate here by legal means
    It is not illegal to seek asylum.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I can understand. Its people who migrate here by legal means and from day one start contribute to society by creating and doing jobs and paying taxes well above average. As someone who is heavily involved with International student communities I can assure you that economic and social impact of professional migration is evident not only from the statistical data available ( crime rate, unemployment, life-styles) -but also from observing how their lives unfold in Australia. I have recently had 14 MBA and MIS students from Kenia and Nigeria graduating from the uni where I teach. It as has been months since they graduated and they are still fighting for Australian PR (they will get it eventually though) and in NO POINT IN TIME they received any tax payer's funding. However, all 14 have jobs to support themselves. 9 of them (while on a Student or Bridging Visa) already have professional jobs!
    So I take it that you would have no problem with refugees being admitted to Australia if they were allowed to work while awaiting PR.

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    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    The trouble with the bogus asylum seeker rhetoric is that we have been here before. Britain for example accepted some 80,000 Jewish refugees in the 1930s but turned away many times that number on the premise that they were not genuinely persecuted in their country of origin. The US too infamously turned away Jewish asylum seekers fleeing Nazi persecution. The most infamous case being the MS St Louis in 1939 with more than 900 Jewish refugees who were turned away from the US, Canada and Cuba.

    I'm not saying every boat arrival is genuine but we need to access their claim for asylum and if genuine we should offer them asylum.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    The comparison is completely beside the point in any case since (as is the case with the dim-witted) economic arguments do not remove the individual's human rights nor Australian's obligations to respect them.
    I find that in this debate not everyone shares the same views of obligations and human rights and therefore I am happy to engage people on their factual claims whatever their moral assumptions (or even if they have an implied assumption that Australia should violate commitments it has made).

    Unfortunately to this point Michael seems only interested in making unsubstantiated slurs against genuine refugees and then deflecting to points about professional migrants and international students that do nothing to illustrate his original derogatory claims.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 29-05-2016 at 12:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    So I take it that you would have no problem with refugees being admitted to Australia if they were allowed to work while awaiting PR.
    My problem is: 1) many do not want to work as opposed to international students/graduates who do! 2) poor level of education/skills/English. After they gain PR, unemployment rate is still high 3) crime rate is high (the article that you provided link to does not prove the opposite ) 4) high cost of accepting them as opposed to students/graduates who are self-sufficient and contribute money to the economy.
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