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  1. #1
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    Victims of pedophile priests and imams help create more victims with silence.

    Victims of pedophile priests and imams help create more victims with silence.

    I recently watched this disturbing movie and recognize that what it portrays fairly closely what is happenings in reality right now.

    https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=...tlight+trailer

    The silence and complicity of the religious are facilitating and colluding in the future assaults on children. Silence or the acceptance of a payoff, in my opinion, is direct collusion with these religious criminals and I see the past victims of these pedophiles as now helping their own assailants create new victims by their silence.

    I appreciate that going public is hard, but if victims do not come forward, I see them as helping the priests and imams that are left free to abuse other children.

    There are some who will read this and know that in a real sense victims are guilty of helping the pedophile problem continue.

    I would urge these victims and their families to step up and do the right thing and return the payoffs and lay charges instead so that we can rid our churches and mosques of these predatory criminals.

    Do you agree that silence is just as immoral as the initial crime when victims accept payoffs from religions to buy their silence?

    Regards
    DL

  2. #2
    CC International Master Agent Smith's Avatar
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    Make sure to catch the Prophet's Prey documentary.
    (Streaming on SBS for a short while longer , ad blocker needs disabling
    http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video.../prophets-prey)
    It is about the polygamous Fundamentalist Latter Day Saint cult and, sadly, to me illustrates religion in a nutshell.
    Their leader takes 60+ wives, some disturbingly young, and is totally exposed and sent to prison for life.
    Last edited by Agent Smith; 13-02-2016 at 08:59 AM.

  3. #3
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenaaus View Post
    Make sure to catch the Prophet's Prey documentary.
    (Streaming on SBS for a short while longer , ad blocker needs disabling
    http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video.../prophets-prey)
    It is about the polygamous Fundamentalist Latter Day Saint cult and, sadly, to me illustrates religion in a nutshell.
    Their leader takes 60+ wives, some disturbing young, and is totally exposed and sent to prison for life.
    Thanks for this. I will check it out.

    Care to opine on the morality issue I brought up?

    Regards
    DL

  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop View Post
    Do you agree that silence is just as immoral as the initial crime when victims accept payoffs from religions to buy their silence?
    No I don't. I can see the argument that a victim who does nothing, knowing that they themselves have suffered and hence that others may suffer if they do not act, is doing something wrong. At least, it's disappointing. But they themselves may be traumatised by what has happened to them, which makes it harder to judge them. Certainly such a victim is nowhere near as bad as a victim who becomes a perpetrator, and a victim who becomes a perpetrator is very slightly less bad than a perpetrator who was never themselves a victim.

    I think it is better approached from the perspective that a person who has suffered abuse and speaks out against it is heroic and brave, especially if they have turned down a payoff to do so. While if an offender's victims are too traumatised to speak out and this makes them complicit in further offences, then the original offender should be held responsible for those too.
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  5. #5
    CC International Master Agent Smith's Avatar
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    Yeah, come on man. You can't be too old , to say such a provoking statement.
    You'll never have to live through things that these victims had to, when they were not even teenagers.

  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    A better question would be is the religious institution that offers the payout as bad as or worse than the pedophile for shielding him and enabling further crimes.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    No I don't. I can see the argument that a victim who does nothing, knowing that they themselves have suffered and hence that others may suffer if they do not act, is doing something wrong. At least, it's disappointing. But they themselves may be traumatised by what has happened to them, which makes it harder to judge them. Certainly such a victim is nowhere near as bad as a victim who becomes a perpetrator, and a victim who becomes a perpetrator is very slightly less bad than a perpetrator who was never themselves a victim.
    I would add that when many of these crimes occurred, the victims did report what happened, but the claims were either ignored or covered-up.

    I've been watching The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo on SBS, which actually covers similar issues. Even in a liberal country such as Sweden, it shows how people could get away with such activities, because of their power and influence.

  8. #8
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    No I don't. I can see the argument that a victim who does nothing, knowing that they themselves have suffered and hence that others may suffer if they do not act, is doing something wrong. At least, it's disappointing. But they themselves may be traumatised by what has happened to them, which makes it harder to judge them. Certainly such a victim is nowhere near as bad as a victim who becomes a perpetrator, and a victim who becomes a perpetrator is very slightly less bad than a perpetrator who was never themselves a victim.

    I think it is better approached from the perspective that a person who has suffered abuse and speaks out against it is heroic and brave, especially if they have turned down a payoff to do so. While if an offender's victims are too traumatised to speak out and this makes them complicit in further offences, then the original offender should be held responsible for those too.
    Some of your thinking is on the mark but to say that the original offender is culpable for what you state is the complicit actions of the first victim, I think odd.

    The victim is responsible for his own actions. Not his assailant.

    The victim can either do the right thing and lay a charge or he can do the wrong thing and take a payoff.

    Way too often they take the payoff and allow the smiling pedophile priest or imam the freedom to seek another victim.

    That immorality is why we have these kinds of laws.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

    Laying charges is hard on the victims but that is how they gain closure.

    Regards
    DL

  9. #9
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenaaus View Post
    Yeah, come on man. You can't be too old , to say such a provoking statement.
    You'll never have to live through things that these victims had to, when they were not even teenagers.
    I am 65 and have an excellent grasp of morality as shown by my advocating that victims and their greedy parents follow the laws shown in those wiki links just above.

    Societies have Good Samaritan and Duty to rescue laws for good and moral reasons. Yet most are not recognizing the duty being ignored by not laying charges and just taking the payoff.

    If I was a pedophile priest or imam, I would be smiling. I would love the idea that most people saw sex crimes against children as a form of prostitution where the price is negotiated by the parents after the crime.

    Shame on those parents.

    Regards
    DL
    Last edited by Gnostic Bishop; 14-02-2016 at 03:15 AM.

  10. #10
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    A better question would be is the religious institution that offers the payout as bad as or worse than the pedophile for shielding him and enabling further crimes.
    I do not know your answer but I would say that they are definitely culpable and should face justice for their collusion in the following sex crimes.

    Regards
    DL

  11. #11
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I would add that when many of these crimes occurred, the victims did report what happened, but the claims were either ignored or covered-up.

    I've been watching The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo on SBS, which actually covers similar issues. Even in a liberal country such as Sweden, it shows how people could get away with such activities, because of their power and influence.
    Police cannot ignore a person wishing to lay a charge.

    Police, as often happens, just indicate how hard it is to make such charges stick. In that way, they discourage the laying of charges but if a person/victim is adamant then they must lay the charge.

    Regards
    DL

  12. #12
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop View Post
    Some of your thinking is on the mark but to say that the original offender is culpable for what you state is the complicit actions of the first victim, I think odd.

    The victim is responsible for his own actions. Not his assailant.
    I think your comments show a significant lack of ability to put yourself in the shoes of all such victims. The victim has been traumatised by their ordeal and may well experience long-lasting or even permanent psychological illnesses arising from it, although the impacts on specific victims will vary greatly. This may make it much more difficult for them to speak out than if they were an unaffected person who just happened to know about the offence.

    Duty to rescue laws apply only to people in specific positions or relationships concerning cases of danger to a specific person. They do not create a duty from a victim to a stranger who might hypothetically become a victim.

    Suppose we substitute rapists for clergy and rape victims for victims of child sexual assault in your opening post. Hardly unreasonable since child sexual assault is a special case of rape. Would it then be argued that a rape victim who does not lay charges is as culpable for future rapes as the rapist?

    Victims who successfully lay charges may well gain closure. Victims who try to lay charges but do not succeed may have their suffering compounded. We should not be blaming victims for what they do in difficult circumstances.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 14-02-2016 at 10:59 AM.
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  13. #13
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I think your comments show a significant lack of ability to put yourself in the shoes of all such victims. The victim has been traumatised by their ordeal and may well experience long-lasting or even permanent psychological illnesses arising from it, although the impacts on specific victims will vary greatly. This may make it much more difficult for them to speak out than if they were an unaffected person who just happened to know about the offence.

    Duty to rescue laws apply only to people in specific positions or relationships concerning cases of danger to a specific person. They do not create a duty from a victim to a stranger who might hypothetically become a victim.

    Suppose we substitute rapists for clergy and rape victims for victims of child sexual assault in your opening post. Hardly unreasonable since child sexual assault is a special case of rape. Would it then be argued that a rape victim who does not lay charges is as culpable for future rapes as the rapist?

    Victims who successfully lay charges may well gain closure. Victims who try to lay charges but do not succeed may have their suffering compounded. We should not be blaming victims for what they do in difficult circumstances.
    It is difficult for sure but closure is best via justice than via a payoff for silence and allowing the predator freedom to find his next victim.

    This a moral and legal issue and if reporting was not done for many other crimes, the one not speaking up would be found in collusion.

    The moral tenet of, do unto others as we would want done to us is what I am applying here.

    Is it better to do unto others by warning them of the predator in their midst, or is doing unto others better served by silence?

    Regards
    DL

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    If the victim did report it to the religious institution, then they have a reasonable expectation that the appropriate action to stop repeat occurrence will happen.

    A bit like not stopping to help at an accident if people are already there helping.

    As far as I can see the fault is with the institution not the victim.

    They are the one that should have helped, but instead turned away other helpers, whilst watching the accident victim bleed out.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  15. #15
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    If the victim did report it to the religious institution, then they have a reasonable expectation that the appropriate action to stop repeat occurrence will happen.

    A bit like not stopping to help at an accident if people are already there helping.

    As far as I can see the fault is with the institution not the victim.

    They are the one that should have helped, but instead turned away other helpers, whilst watching the accident victim bleed out.
    Understood but to have the scenario complete, you need to recognize that the accident victim that survived should be hanging out a sign telling other drivers of the hazard just ahead that will victimize them as well.

    You are correct that the church or mosque should act but when seeing them do nothing but offering a payoff for silence, the victim and mostly his parents should do unto others as they would want done to them and warn the community of a predator.

    That Golden Rules is basically accepted as the best moral rule and the victims and their parents are ignoring it and doing the opposite.

    Regards
    DL

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