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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    2000 court case redux (sf 2016 Baku NZ teams)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dowden View Post
    Perhaps Elliott was making the point that unlike the Australian chess context lawsuits involving chess personalities are virtually unheard of in NZ Over the last 30 or so years I can only think of one incident vaguely approaching a lawsuit in NZ chess - and even then I'm not sure if lawyers have any involvement beyond giving advice to one or two parties.
    Although I was only joking in my previous, I have some knowledge of the case.
    What really impressed me was the very intelligent move by the judge to seek expert opinion outside of court.
    Two eminent chess personalities (both Victorian) were approached to give their opinion on the matter!
    I have no knowledge of the effect of their opinion on the final outcome of the case.
    I understand, however, that they presented an objective, unbiased and thorough perspective of the situation!
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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    What really impressed me was the very intelligent move by the judge to seek expert opinion outside of court.
    Two eminent chess personalities (both Victorian) were approached to give their opinion on the matter!
    This is drifting off-topic here but actually they were Robert Jamieson (Vic) and the late Peter Parr (NSW) and they were called as defence witnesses, ie by the ACF. Both indeed did an excellent job. I am trying to find the judgement again since the original link is now down.

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    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    This is drifting off-topic here but actually they were Robert Jamieson (Vic) and the late Peter Parr (NSW) and they were called as defence witnesses, ie by the ACF. Both indeed did an excellent job. I am trying to find the judgement again since the original link is now down.
    Indeed it's drifting off topic. However and since you are about to provide some additional information, I think it's only fair to start a new thread regarding the court case.
    Also, since names were named the story I was told is that the two chess personalities called for the defense were IM Robert Jamieson and IM Guy West! (both Victorians)!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Aside from the one selection case 15 years ago I'm not aware of any other truly chess-related lawsuits in Australia either.
    Can not believe it has been 15 years already . Time flies. When Depasquale turned to legal action, I can recall how amazed the chess community was as few of us regarded him as a player strong enough to be on that team. As far as I can recall, his main argument was that he finished 2nd in the Australian championship.
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    From the original thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Can not believe it has been 15 years already . Time flies. When Depasquale turned to legal action, I can recall how amazed the chess community was as few of us regarded him as a player strong enough to be on that team. As far as I can recall, his main argument was that he finished 2nd in the Australian championship.
    I think it was slightly more complex than that. As I recall, ACF had adjusted the normal timetable and/or process which it explained gave selectors a better opportunity to assess current form. CdP argued that his result with a PR over 2500 did in fact mean his current form put him ahead of other applicants.

    The judge's ruling (again my recollection from a long time ago) boiled down to saying that explanatory notes don't over-ride the selection by-laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    From the original thread:

    I think it was slightly more complex than that. As I recall, ACF had adjusted the normal timetable and/or process which it explained gave selectors a better opportunity to assess current form. CdP argued that his result with a PR over 2500 did in fact mean his current form put him ahead of other applicants.

    The judge's ruling (again my recollection from a long time ago) boiled down to saying that explanatory notes don't over-ride the selection by-laws.
    "Kevin Bonham: This is drifting off-topic here but actually they were Robert Jamieson (Vic) and the late Peter Parr (NSW) and they were called as defence witnesses, ie by the ACF. Both indeed did an excellent job. I am trying to find the judgement again since the original link is now down."

    I have a hard copy of the judgement. Essentially what happened was that an e-mail sent as part of the Olympiad selection referred to "current form". The selection by-law contained a criterion of "playing strength", not "current form". The plaintiff argued that the e-mail was inconsistent with the criterion in the by-laws and impliedly varied the implied contract between the parties. Gray J disagreed saying that the e-mail had not varied the contract between the plaintiff and defendant that included the selection by-law. He said also that, to the extent that "current form" was a consideration, the selectors had not overlooked it. Consequently he refused to declare the selection process invalid or that the plaintiff should have been selected - those being the orders sought by the plaintiff.

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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Here is the notice in question:

    "It is intended to select a squad of 10 players for the Olympiad and 8
    players for the Womens Olympiad. The Olympiad teams will then be selected
    from these squads at the end of the Koshnitsky Chess Festival based on
    players current form at the time."

    from http://www.auschess.org.au/bulletins/acfb52.htm

    jammo held the position of "International Secretary", a position I don't even remember existing by that name although I had just joined Council at the time.

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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    As far as I can recall, his main argument was that he finished 2nd in the Australian championship.
    It was also only equal second, with a lower PR than the player he was equal with, and in one of the smallest and weakest runnings of the tournament. The event was held at Tumbi Umbi on the NSW central coast and was not helped by cutting across Y2K New Years Eve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    It was also only equal second, with a lower PR than the player he was equal with, and in one of the smallest and weakest runnings of the tournament. The event was held at Tumbi Umbi on the NSW central coast and was not helped by cutting across Y2K New Years Eve.
    In any case, nobody seriously considered Depasquale as a serious contender for a spot on the Australian team at the time...other than Depasquale himself .
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    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Also, since names were named the story I was told is that the two chess personalities called for the defense were IM Robert Jamieson and IM Guy West! (both Victorians)!
    This old Canberra Times report states Guy was indeed a witness but leaves it unclear who he was called by:

    http://www.auschess.org.au/columns/ct/ct221000.htm

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    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    This old Canberra Times report states Guy was indeed a witness but leaves it unclear who he was called by:

    http://www.auschess.org.au/columns/ct/ct221000.htm
    Guy West was called as a witness by the plaintiff. So also was Robert Rozycki. Robert Jamieson and Peter Parr were called by the defendant (ACF). Their evidence mainly concerned the meaning of "current form" though that turned out not to be critical to the result. The judge did not accept that the use of the term "current form" in the call for applications for selection had made it a selection criterion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    In any case, nobody seriously considered Depasquale as a serious contender for a spot on the Australian team at the time...other than Depasquale himself .
    After the players selected, Depasquale was the next player on the selectors' list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop View Post
    Guy West was called as a witness by the plaintiff.
    Guy West provided reams of detailed written game analysis opining that Depas was currently playing really great chess.
    Which was all there, available for the judge to study, should he so desire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triplecheck View Post
    Guy West provided reams of detailed written game analysis opining that Depas was currently playing really great chess.
    Which was all there, available for the judge to study, should he so desire.
    He did have some good results around then as I recall. However the judge's job was not to scrub the selections and re-do them himself, it was to assess the point of law. Given Denis's summary above that it related to a claimed contract with the applicants then the same would apply to all the other applicants, so you would think the best he could have got was an order to start again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triplecheck View Post
    After the players selected, Depasquale was the next player on the selectors' list.



    Guy West provided reams of detailed written game analysis opining that Depas was currently playing really great chess.
    Which was all there, available for the judge to study, should he so desire.
    I pity the judge who had to go through Depasquale's games...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    He did have some good results around then as I recall. However the judge's job was not to scrub the selections and re-do them himself, it was to assess the point of law. Given Denis's summary above that it related to a claimed contract with the applicants then the same would apply to all the other applicants, so you would think the best he could have got was an order to start again.
    The plaintiff's counsel argued that the selectors had failed to follow their instructions, since they were instructed to select the best team, and had obviously not done that because Depasquale had not been selected.

    There was (I was told) an exchange along these lines:

    Judge: So what are you suggesting?

    Plaintiff Counsel: We are suggesting that the court order a playoff match between Depasquale and the lowest ranked selected player.

    Judge: Are you seriously suggesting that a case in this court should be decided by a chess match?

    Plaintiff Counsel: Er, well, no your honour, perhaps that would not be appropriate.

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