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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Just because you have thought of only three explanations, it doesn't follow that there are only three. You are right that they are all wrong, but this doesn't mean that there isn't an answer you didn't think of. See my old answer to Garrett re distant starlight.
    John Hartnett gives a useful summary of possible theories here.

    Interestingly, he seems to have abandoned his Carmeli cosmology:
    The cosmology still has several unsolved problems. Unfortunately no general 5 dimensional cosmology exists. Carmeli never found such a theory. To date I have not found the required space-time-velocity theory, with an extra time-like dimension, that fits the Creation period, though I am continuing to search.

    His current preferred explanation is significantly different:
    In my model, ...all light left all galaxies about 6000 years ago as measured by earth clocks. All light arrived at Earth for the first time on Day 4 of creation week. Even if it travelled for billions of years under the ESC travelling at constant speed of light, c. Under the ASC it arrived instantly. No travel time. Remember: This is just a timing convention, nothing more. Events are timed-stamped when they are observed, or in this case when they could have been observed on Earth.
    So the universe is really billions of years old (using the standard ESC), but appears to be only 6000 years old.

  2. #62
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Cosmology is easy when you can make shit up to suit whatever broken age of the universe you have to accept a priori. However it still fails the pub test. If the universe was such an age why does it appear to be so old? Less than one percent of experts in the age of the universe thinks is is 6,000 years, the vast majority think that it is older by several orders of magnitude. The only sensible creationist position is that God intentionally gave the universe the appearance of age to deceive scientists into concocting a naturalist world view and thus lead them down to the path to ruination.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #63
    CC International Master Agent Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    John Hartnett gives a useful summary of possible theories here.

    Interestingly, he seems to have abandoned his Carmeli cosmology:
    Laugh.
    5. c-decay: speed of light decreased

    c-decay was made famous both in and out of creationist circles in the 1980s, by Mr Setterfield, who I first met in 1980, here in Adelaide. He told me that God spoke to him and revealed to him that the speed of light was extraordinarily much faster at Creation 6000 years ago and since then has slowed down. If true that would solve the light travel time problem
    If. If! Don't be a pussy man. Of course it's true.

  4. #64
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Cosmology is easy when you can make shit up to suit whatever broken age of the universe you have to accept a priori.
    To solve the big bang's horizon problem, their own "light travel time" problem, they "make shit up" like the superluminal expansion of space called "inflation", with no physical mechanism of starting it, stopping it, and making gravity run in reverse (the Hartnett article cited by PB explains more). Or else João Magueijo proposed that the speed of light was 60 orders of magnitude just after the big bang.

    Hartnett didn't say that he abandoned Carmelian cosmology, just that it was incomplete at present. I disagree with his new preferred model.

    I will never accept a model like Setterfield's just because he claimed that God revealed it to him personally. It violates Sola Scriptura.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  5. #65
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I will never accept a model like Setterfield's just because he claimed that God revealed it to him personally. It violates Sola Scriptura.
    Exactly. Science is easy when you cling to inalienable truths without evidence while ignoring literally mountains of evidence for an ancient earth and cosmos.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #66
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    https://www.csicop.org/si/show/e_war..._knowing_in_21
    At the start of the twentieth century, over 40 percent of Americans did not know that the Earth orbits the sun in a year-long cycle (Otto 2016, 224). Another 52 percent did not know that dinosaurs died before the appearance of humans, and 45 percent were unaware that the world is older than 10,000 years. It is unnecessary to mention the equally alarming numbers of people who believe in ghosts, space aliens, paranormal monsters, devil possession, angels, demons, miracles, and so forth (Smith 2010, 22–23).
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    I have only included the first para as to hopefully not breach copyright - a good read of course
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  7. #67
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    https://www.csicop.org/si/show/e_war..._knowing_in_21
    At the start of the twentieth century, over 40 percent of Americans did not know that the Earth orbits the sun in a year-long cycle (Otto 2016, 224).
    They should read my co-authored paper that explains why they should.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  8. #68
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    They should read my co-authored paper that explains why they should.
    I thought the ancient Greeks knew that the Earth orbits the sun and even drew diagrams of how stars would appear on the other side of the Earth.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    https://www.csicop.org/si/show/e_war..._knowing_in_21
    At the start of the twentieth century, over 40 percent of Americans did not know that the Earth orbits the sun in a year-long cycle (Otto 2016, 224)...
    I assume he meant the "twenty-first" century, as he switches almost immediately to the present tense.

  10. #70
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    I thought the ancient Greeks knew that the Earth orbits the sun and even drew diagrams of how stars would appear on the other side of the Earth.
    No, most believed in a geocentric universe, with a spherical earth at the centre. The main exception was Aristarchos, who showed that the sun is much bigger than the earth, so it should be at the centre. But most didn't agree with him, even if they accepted that the sun was bigger. The influential Syntaxis or Almagest by Ptolemy firmly set absolute geocentrism as the ruling paradigm for about 1,500 years.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 09-04-2018 at 03:25 PM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  11. #71
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    No, most believed in a geocentric universe, with a spherical earth at the centre. The main exception was Aristarchos, who showed that the sun is much bigger than the earth, so it should be at the centre. But most didn't agree with him, even if they accepted that the sun was bigger. The influential Syntaxis or Almagest by Ptolemy firmly set absolute geocentrism as the ruling paradigm for about 1,500 years.
    Without researching I think you are downplaying scientific knowledge and deliberately confusing it with what the ignorant religious people believed or wanted uneducated people to believe.

    From wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos

    Aristarchus of Samos
    Aristarchos von Samos (Denkmal).jpeg
    Statue of Aristarchus of Samos at the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki
    Born c. 310 BC
    Died c. 230 BC (age c. 80)
    Nationality Greek
    Occupation
    Scholar Mathematician Astronomer
    Aristarchus of Samos (/ˌærəˈstɑːrkəs/; Greek: Ἀρίσταρχος ὁ Σάμιος, Aristarkhos ho Samios; c. 310 – c. 230 BC) was an ancient Greek astronomer and mathematician who presented the first known model that placed the Sun at the center of the known universe with the Earth revolving around it (see Solar system). He was influenced by Philolaus of Croton, but Aristarchus identified the "central fire" with the Sun, and he put the other planets in their correct order of distance around the Sun.[1] Like Anaxagoras before him, he suspected that the stars were just other bodies like the Sun, albeit further away from Earth. He was also the first one to deduce the rotation of earth on its axis. His astronomical ideas were often rejected in favor of the incorrect geocentric theories of Aristotle and Ptolemy. Nicolaus Copernicus attributed the heliocentric theory to Aristarchus.[2]
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Religion, especially Christianity kept the world blindfolded and stupid as my proud atheist Greek friend would tell me.

    Now consider that I was taught in 1955 in a Catholic school - stars were holes in the floor of Heaven - what ignorance, even Greenbottle in Yes What would not come p with such stupidity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovJQt9EccZ8
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    Without researching I think you are downplaying scientific knowledge and deliberately confusing it with what the ignorant religious people believed or wanted uneducated people to believe. ...
    You may be correct, but your quote from Wikipedia basically just repeats what Capablanca-Fan already said.

    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    ... Now consider that I was taught in 1955 in a Catholic school - stars were holes in the floor of Heaven - what ignorance, even Greenbottle in Yes What would not come p with such stupidity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovJQt9EccZ8
    How old were you - it sounds like the way a Primary School teacher might explain it? The Catholic Church doesn't have a problem with modern cosmology. For example, it accepts the Big Bang theory, which was actually proposed by a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, almost 100 years ago.

  13. #73
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    ...............

    How old were you - it sounds like the way a Primary School teacher might explain it? The Catholic Church doesn't have a problem with modern cosmology. For example, it accepts the Big Bang theory, which was actually proposed by a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, almost 100 years ago.
    Yes it was primary school and it was before there was any compulsory science curriculum in NSW, schools that was not until about 1963 after the Wyndham Report. Do you think uneducated nuns knew anything about all those hi fluting scientific words you just mentioned? Who knows what they would have guessed about Big Bang theory? After being told about the holes in floor of Heaven I rationalised that when it rained God must have been hosing down the floor of Heaven.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    Yes it was primary school and it was before there was any compulsory science curriculum in NSW, schools that was not until about 1963 after the Wyndham Report. Do you think uneducated nuns knew anything about all those hi fluting scientific words you just mentioned? Who knows what they would have guessed about Big Bang theory? After being told about the holes in floor of Heaven I rationalised that when it rained God must have been hosing down the floor of Heaven.
    They probably didn't know about the Big Bang theory, but I'm fairly sure the nuns (and even some of the children) knew stars weren't actually holes in the sky - here's a Disneyland program on spaceflight from 1955!

  15. #75
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Nuns were poverty-stricken and the only movie I can recall we all seeing was been taken by the nuns to the Ten Commandments. They took a vow of poverty and this was before TV so you cannot presume anyone seeing anything. My mother would buy them sweets and new underwear for Christmas. They had orphans to care for which they probably received no money to support.
    Last edited by antichrist; 10-04-2018 at 06:04 PM.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

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