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  1. #46
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Klan intellectual David Duke is a Darwinian, continuing the racism that was rife among Darwinians in the first decades of the last century.
    David Duke is also a Christian (See for example his article here Should Christians Support Israel? , which begins "I am a Christian...")

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Woodrow Wilson was very much a liberal churchian, no more Christian than Spong is today.
    No churchy enough for you of course but then again the 95% of Christian Germans (orthodox Lutherans and Catholics) are not Christian enough for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    It's hard to take RW seriously when he calls Margaret Sanger a Christian, when she was awarded the 1957 Humanist of the Year by the American Humanist Association.
    Plenty of Christians have received awards from the American Humanist Association. Margeret Sanger self-identified as a Christian and and specifically an Episcopalian. (See: Margaret Sanger: Closeted Atheist Marxist? Probably Not.)
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  2. #47
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    David Duke is also a Christian (See for example his article here Should Christians Support Israel? , which begins "I am a Christian...")
    And if he said "I am not a racist bigot," RW would logically have to accept that, because after all, people always identify themselves truthfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    No churchy enough for you of course but then again the 95% of Christian Germans (orthodox Lutherans and Catholics) are not Christian enough for you.
    Of course not, given that biblical Christianity was almost unknown then, except in the anti-Hitler Confessing Church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Plenty of Christians have received awards from the American Humanist Association.
    Like whom? Of course, RW's pseudo-definition of Christian is just as warped as his definition of faith, with no connection with reality. In most cases, it means anyone RW doesn't like, even if they believed or acted contrary to Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Margeret Sanger self-identified as a Christian and and specifically an Episcopalian. (See: Margaret Sanger: Closeted Atheist Marxist? Probably Not.)
    Episcopalian in many cases in the 20th and 21st century just means an atheist in church, like Spong.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  3. #48
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Jono continues to fall back on the No True Scotsman fallacy to try and divorce Christianity from the Klan. But in truth they are almost 100% Christian and every witness he has called on as having even tangential connection with the Klan are all Christian as well. Not Christian enough for Jono obviously but luckily he is not the decider of who is Christian and who isn't or else the number of Christians in the world would probably be in single digits.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    The experiment involved change effected by natural selection, but since both creationist and evolutionist models accept change effected by natural selection, this experiment is not evidence against either.
    I didn't say it was evidence for or against anything. As the 'evolutionist' model includes the possibility of change by natural selection (as you agree), therefore the experiment was testing part of the 'evolutionist' model (the possibility of change by natural selection). Therefore it was an experiment in evolution. You can argue that it was a test of part of the creationist model as well, if you wish - I never said it wasn't. But you can't deny that it was testing part of the 'evolutionist' model, which, as I said, is evidence that evolution was not purely historical, and can be tested experimentally:
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    The fact that there is a discussion about an experiment in evolution on a creationist website demonstrates conclusively that evolution is not purely historical - I'm glad you agree with me (and Rincewind by implication).
    An experiment does not have to test an entire model, but can focus on a specific part of that model.

  5. #50
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    If you asked David Duke about Jonothan Safarti he may call him a Jew and not a Christian
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  6. #51
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Jono continues to fall back on the No True Scotsman fallacy to try and divorce Christianity from the Klan.
    It's a No True Scotsman reality in this case: If RW is to be believed, a someone could be a Scotsman although he has never been to Scotland, has no trace of Scottish ancestry, and has no interest in any Scottish culture. In RW's ivory tower, apparently even a leading secular humanist can be a Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    But in truth they are almost 100% Christian and every witness he has called on as having even tangential connection with the Klan are all Christian as well. Not Christian enough for Jono obviously
    Obviously, because Christ and the Bible are anti-racist, which is why Darwin's ally Haeckel despised the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    but luckily he is not the decider of who is Christian and who isn't or else the number of Christians in the world would probably be in single digits.
    I don't need an atheopathic Christ-myther telling me who my fellow Christians are.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  7. #52
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    It's a No True Scotsman reality in this case: If RW is to be believed, a someone could be a Scotsman although he has never been to Scotland, has no trace of Scottish ancestry, and has no interest in any Scottish culture. In RW's ivory tower, apparently even a leading secular humanist can be a Christian.
    As usual most of the rubbish you sprout is patently false. In the Klan's case the members self-identify as Christians, revere Christian symbols (like the cross), say prayers to the Christian God and sing Christian hymns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Obviously, because Christ and the Bible are anti-racist
    That's debatable. Some Christians are not racists but many are quite racist and use the Bible to justify that racism. In deciding with Christianity as a whole is a positive movement you cannot cherry pick only the Christians you are happy to be associated with. You have to take all the good and all the bad that has been done is the name of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I don't need an atheopathic Christ-myther telling me who my fellow Christians are.
    But you see, yes you most definitely do. If you are left to cherry pick only the best and most selfless Christians then you get a rose-coloured view of the impact of Christianity on society. Unfortunately you have to take the good along with the bad and that includes Hitler, the Klan, the Crusades, the Inquisition and all the pogroms and other persecutions done in the name of Christianity.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #53
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    That's debatable. Some Christians are not racists but many are quite racist and use the Bible to justify that racism.
    The absurd racist eisegesis, including appeals to a non-existent "curse on Ham", occurred when there was already widespread racism. So the racism caused the interpretation, not the other way round. Indeed, the racists were doing just what you want the church to do: read the prevailing fad into the Bible, i.e. evolution and leftism, just as the Church in Galileo's day read Aristotelian/Ptolemaic cosmology into Scripture. David Goldenberg analysed this in The Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2003). One review said:

    Goldenberg is sufficiently persuaded of the importance of the case he is making- that the Bible does not measure people's worth by the color of their skin—not to encumber the main body of his book with the kind of extended academic argument in whose thickets most readers would soon be lost. … [He has a] conviction that a scholarly work, if it has something important to say, should not be just for scholars."—John Pridmore, Church Times

    … What color did the ancient Jews think that they were? Answer: like just about everyone else in antiquity, the right color, of course, which in the Mediterranean context would be someplace midway between too light and too dark. … It comes as no surprise to learn that growing insistence on the chimerical curse coincides with increasing numbers of black Africans taken as slaves, first in the Islamic East, then in the Christian West, and most perniciously in America. According to G, from the seventh century on the theme is common in Near Eastern sources (Arabic Muslim and Christian Syriac), surfacing in Western (Christian) writers in the fifteenth century and appearing in Jewish sources from the Islamic world a century earlier than in Jewish sources from the Christian west (fourteenth/ fifteenth century). … Goldenberg concludes that the ancient Jewish world was not racist in the modern sense of hierarchy, ideology, or social structure determined by biological difference. … Molly Myerowitz Levine, Chair of Classics, Howard University, Bryn Mawr Classical Review 2004.02.53

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    In deciding with Christianity as a whole is a positive movement you cannot cherry pick only the Christians you are happy to be associated with. You have to take all the good and all the bad that has been done is the name of Christ.
    Nonsense: I pick what has been consistent with Christ's teachings, because Jesus himself said,

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    But you see, yes you most definitely do. If you are left to cherry pick only the best and most selfless Christians then you get a rose-coloured view of the impact of Christianity on society. Unfortunately you have to take the good along with the bad and that includes Hitler, the Klan, the Crusades, the Inquisition and all the pogroms and other persecutions done in the name of Christianity.
    We've been through the christophobia and evolutionism of the Nazis many times.

    https://www.youtube.com/verify_contr...%3DLiO_c5-6_Hw

    But you just want to tar everyone you don't like with "Christian" regardless of whether they accepted Christian doctrine or followed Christian practices, just on their say so. Also discussed the Crusades as justified responses to centuries of Islamonazi aggression, and the Inquisition as been more lenient than the secular justice system of the day so that some criminals uttered heresies to be transferred to the Inquisitorial courts.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  9. #54
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    ....................
    But you just want to tar everyone you don't like with "Christian" regardless of whether they accepted Christian doctrine or followed Christian practices, just on their say so. Also discussed the Crusades as justified responses to centuries of Islamonazi aggression, and the Inquisition as been more lenient than the secular justice system of the day so that some criminals uttered heresies to be transferred to the Inquisitorial courts.
    Now it is opposite, I utter heresies to get to the civil courts to expose who ridiculous the idea of heresies are - I put out a magazine called Blasphemer once
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  10. #55
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    The absurd racist eisegesis, including appeals to a non-existent "curse on Ham", occurred when there was already widespread racism. So the racism caused the interpretation, not the other way round. Indeed, the racists were doing just what you want the church to do: read the prevailing fad into the Bible, i.e. evolution and leftism, just as the Church in Galileo's day read Aristotelian/Ptolemaic cosmology into Scripture. David Goldenberg analysed this in The Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2003). One review said:

    Goldenberg is sufficiently persuaded of the importance of the case he is making- that the Bible does not measure people's worth by the color of their skin—not to encumber the main body of his book with the kind of extended academic argument in whose thickets most readers would soon be lost. … [He has a] conviction that a scholarly work, if it has something important to say, should not be just for scholars."—John Pridmore, Church Times

    … What color did the ancient Jews think that they were? Answer: like just about everyone else in antiquity, the right color, of course, which in the Mediterranean context would be someplace midway between too light and too dark. … It comes as no surprise to learn that growing insistence on the chimerical curse coincides with increasing numbers of black Africans taken as slaves, first in the Islamic East, then in the Christian West, and most perniciously in America. According to G, from the seventh century on the theme is common in Near Eastern sources (Arabic Muslim and Christian Syriac), surfacing in Western (Christian) writers in the fifteenth century and appearing in Jewish sources from the Islamic world a century earlier than in Jewish sources from the Christian west (fourteenth/ fifteenth century). … Goldenberg concludes that the ancient Jewish world was not racist in the modern sense of hierarchy, ideology, or social structure determined by biological difference. … Molly Myerowitz Levine, Chair of Classics, Howard University, Bryn Mawr Classical Review 2004.02.53


    Nonsense: I pick what has been consistent with Christ's teachings, because Jesus himself said,

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


    We've been through the christophobia and evolutionism of the Nazis many times.

    https://www.youtube.com/verify_contr...%3DLiO_c5-6_Hw

    But you just want to tar everyone you don't like with "Christian" regardless of whether they accepted Christian doctrine or followed Christian practices, just on their say so. Also discussed the Crusades as justified responses to centuries of Islamonazi aggression, and the Inquisition as been more lenient than the secular justice system of the day so that some criminals uttered heresies to be transferred to the Inquisitorial courts.
    This whole debate sparked off by you claiming the Klan was Darwinian and not Christian. I note that that that was the only point you are no longer arguing. So tacit conceding of that point by you is accepted.

    The rest of what you write is filled with errors but as they are tangential to the main issue of the undeniable Christian orientation of the Klan I'm not interested in dragging you over the coals on these points again.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  11. #56
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Special for Capa Fan

    http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video...-enlightenment

    Capa Fan, special for you maybe you did not know what occurred a few hundred of years ago
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  12. #57
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    I was wondering - how do creationists reconcile the age of the universe as evidenced by the time it takes light from distant stars to reach earth.
    I can only think of three explanations.
    1. When god created the stars, he also created light from them, already most of the way to the earth. ... Thus cunningly tricking everyone.
    2. The speed of light is not constant after all - despite all of quantum mechanics , relativity , etc
    3. The other stars and galaxies actually aren't so far away after all... laugh.

  13. #58
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenaaus View Post
    I was wondering - how do creationists reconcile the age of the universe as evidenced by the time it takes light from distant stars to reach earth.
    I can only think of three explanations.
    1. When god created the stars, he also created light from them, already most of the way to the earth. ... Thus cunningly tricking everyone.
    2. The speed of light is not constant after all - despite all of quantum mechanics , relativity , etc
    3. The other stars and galaxies actually aren't so far away after all... laugh.
    To paraphrase Arthur Conan Doyle, when you believe something without evidence (like creationism) and then attempt to reconcile scientific evidence then it is a matter of eliminating the impossible and then whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth. But the approach is not scientific since the same level of scrutiny is not applied to physical evidence then is applied to the "truth" as revealed in scripture.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #59
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    To paraphrase Terry Pratchett ... creationists, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
    meep meep

  15. #60
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenaaus View Post
    I was wondering—how do creationists reconcile the age of the universe as evidenced by the time it takes light from distant stars to reach earth.
    I can only think of three explanations.
    1. When god created the stars, he also created light from them, already most of the way to the earth. ... Thus cunningly tricking everyone.
    2. The speed of light is not constant after all—despite all of quantum mechanics , relativity , etc
    3. The other stars and galaxies actually aren't so far away after all... laugh.
    Just because you have thought of only three explanations, it doesn't follow that there are only three. You are right that they are all wrong, but this doesn't mean that there isn't an answer you didn't think of. See my old answer to Garrett re distant starlight.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

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