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  1. #61
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Jono from above

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Who would 'whinge' about anti-semites having a splitting headache?

    Jono: The anti-semites for one, e.g. Antichrist.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    AC: actually Jono I am fantastic for not having headaches. Only bad one was when playing chess 14 hours a day for 3 consecutive days at Ukraine Club where there were some genuine anti-Semites. I am an anti-Zionist.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    So where was his biblical justification? You have no proof that it was based on the text at hand, or on any other text for that matter. But this is important since we were meant to be discussing the text of Scripture, not the views of a theologian of the Alexandrian school notable for allegorization. E.g. where is the biblical evidence of racial guilt against Jews but not against Italians, for example?
    That's a fair point. Although I'm surprised you're suggesting that Augustine would have made such a claim without Biblical justification.

    However, if you are looking for anti-semitism specifically based on Scripture, there are plenty of examples. For example, this quote from Martin Luther:
    "He did not call them Abraham's children, but a 'brood of vipers' [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, 'He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord calls them a 'brood of vipers'; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: 'If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did . . . You are of your father the devil.' It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today."

    [rest of post moved - mod]
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 07-04-2015 at 08:12 PM.

  3. #63
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Posts moved

    Posts about whether or not Hitler was a Christian have been moved to a new thread. Parts of posts referring to this issue have been copied over.

  4. #64
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Finding Jesus: Faith Fact Forgery

    There is a new documentary mini-series produced by Nutopia in the UK and screened on CNN in the US called Finding Jesus: Faith Fact Forgery. It purports to concentrate on the scientific investigation of 6 relics. Episode one concentrated on the Shroud of Turin. There are lots of dramatisations of supposed 1st century events, mostly surrounding the passion and so it will be popular with masochists but people interested in facts will be disappointed. The scientific scholarship is scant and lacking depth and even the textual scholarship takes lots of assumptions without any justification. I imagine fundamentalists will not like the textual liberties as much as I disliked the lack of scientific details.

    Anyway since it relates directly to this thread people following this might still find the documentary interesting although I wouldn't recommend or endorse it in particular. (I'd give it 1.5 stars out of 5)
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    There is a new documentary mini-series produced by Nutopia in the UK and screened on CNN in the US called Finding Jesus: Faith Fact Forgery. It purports to concentrate on the scientific investigation of 6 relics. Episode one concentrated on the Shroud of Turin. There are lots of dramatisations of supposed 1st century events, mostly surrounding the passion and so it will be popular with masochists but people interested in facts will be disappointed. The scientific scholarship is scant and lacking depth and even the textual scholarship takes lots of assumptions without any justification. I imagine fundamentalists will not like the textual liberties as much as I disliked the lack of scientific details.
    I'm surprised that the Shroud is included, as it has been definitively established that the Shroud was of Medieval origin.

  6. #66
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I'm surprised that the Shroud is included, as it has been definitively established that the Shroud was of Medieval origin.
    Yes and this lead to a somewhat confusing first episode where investigation of the age of the shroud was hinted at but set aside for the first two thirds of the episode at which point they basically fessed up and said, we actually radio carbon dating was performed years ago and it is 13th century in origin. The remaining 1/3 of the episode dealt with the Sudarium of Oviedo and a theory that the image on the shroud was a medieval photograph produced with a camera obscura. Which was a somewhat confusing way to present the material.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #67
    CC Candidate Master Gnostic Bishop's Avatar
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    That series to date is just the same old same old Christian garbage.

    It is easy to see that it is theistic funding at work.

    Regards
    DL

  8. #68
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I'm surprised that the Shroud is included, as it has been definitively established that the Shroud was of Medieval origin.
    And the Shroud contradicts the biblical record anyway, because this specifies strips (plural) of linen. See my old DVD Arguments Creationists Should NOT Use where I briefly analyze the original Greek texts. RW noted the textual liberties taken by this series.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  9. #69
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    That's a fair point. Although I'm surprised you're suggesting that Augustine would have made such a claim without Biblical justification.

    However, if you are looking for anti-semitism specifically based on Scripture, there are plenty of examples. For example, this quote from Martin Luther:
    "He did not call them Abraham's children, but a 'brood of vipers' [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, 'He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord calls them a 'brood of vipers'; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: 'If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did … You are of your father the devil.' It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today."
    Yes, we know about Luther's typical trash-talking. But of course, he had no doubt that Jesus and the Apostles were also Jewish. He exchanged schatological language with Thomas More for example. German-speakers in general seemed to be fond of schatalogical language; Mozart was another. I discuss Luther more here.

    I wrote the following over 20 yeas ago:

    8.1) Supposedly antisemitic NT texts
    Spong claims that Jesus (as depicted in John) and Paul are guilty of anti-Jewish prejudice, and blames them for 'pogroms, ghettos, … Kristallnacht and Dachau' (Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism p. 22). Spong should be more concerned that the Holocaust occurred in the country where his beloved theological liberalism first crippled the churches (see section 7.1).

    Spong here, and in many other place, confuses legitimate use of biblical passages with their abuse (cf. RBF p. 20). It is not the Bible's fault that antisemites, as well as slavers, wife-beaters, crusaders and inquisitors have read their own prejudices into the texts (i.e. eisegesis).

    It is hardly a new charge that the NT contains remarks that antisemites have misused. However, a book which contains scathing remarks about some Jews is not necessarily antisemitic. For example, a certain book calls Israelites: ‘stiffnecked people … rebellious from the day I knew you’, another thunders: ‘Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity …’, yet another despairs: ‘Refuse silver shall men call them, because the LORD has rejected them.’ Yet these examples all come from the Old Testament (Deut. 9:6, 24; Is. 1:4; Jer. 6:30)! Not even Spong [or our resident ChessChat christophobes] would accuse the OT of antisemitism, although it is often brutally honest about the faults of God's chosen people.

    Critics of the NT also fail to realise that the word Ioudaios, usually translated ‘Jew’, probably only means Jew in the widest sense (descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) when used by gentiles. When used by Jews, it is probably a sectional term meaning ‘Judean’ [Malcolm Lowe, ‘Who Were the Judaioi?’ Novum Testamentum XVIII:101 ff. (April 1976)]. This reflected the mutual dislike between Judeans and Galileans. The latter included Christ and his disciples who were most strongly opposed by Judeans. To illustrate the difference, the Roman Pontius Pilate had Jesus labelled: ‘King of the Jews’ (Mt. 27:37) while the Jewish leaders said: 'If He be the King of Israel …' [including Galilee and the Diaspora] (Mt. 27:42).

    The NT was written by Jews, and its prosemitism is evident. Jesus’ first priority was to ‘the lost sheep of the house of Israel’ (Mt. 10:6, 15:24), and says, ‘… for salvation is from the Jews’ (John 4:22, a book Spong singles out for his charge of antisemitism!). Paul always evangelised Jews first in every city he visited (Acts 13:4–5, 14, 14:1, 16:11–13, 17:1–2, 10, 16-17, 18:1–4, 19, 19:1,8). Paul wrote to the church at Rome:

    • For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Rom. 1:16).
    • I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin (Rom. 11:1).
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 14-04-2015 at 03:27 AM.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  10. #70
    CC International Master Kaitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Yes, we know about Luther's typical trash-talking. But of course, he had no doubt that Jesus and the Apostles were also Jewish.
    Jesus was Jewish but the Apostles weren't, that's why they are called Apostles... that's like saying a Adult is a Teenager
    .. this Caketin is full of little spiders and watermelon seeds.....

    ..Chess is all about fear and psychology

    ..Chess is like an exam..... you havent studied for

    ..If you're good at Chess it means you are very intelligent and could potentialy do great things
    ..... but that you might have wasted that playing way too much chess

  11. #71
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlin View Post
    Jesus was Jewish but the Apostles weren't, that's why they are called Apostles... that's like saying a Adult is a Teenager
    Apostle just means messenger. Some of the apostles were Torah observant Jews and some were not. This lead to some conflict between various early churches with the non-Torah observing churches winning which was likely anyway since it made the conversion of gentiles easier.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #72
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Apostle just means messenger. Some of the apostles were Torah observant Jews and some were not. This lead to some conflict between various early churches with the non-Torah observing churches winning which was likely anyway since it made the conversion of gentiles easier.
    But the Gentiles will never be the real thing to this day. Just as the African Jews are not considered the real thing.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  13. #73
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    But the Gentiles will never be the real thing to this day. Just as the African Jews are not considered the real thing.
    I think you are somewhat confused as to what I was saying. The non-Torah observance became the mainstream to such an extent that Christianity rapidly became disassociated from Judaism.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Yes, we know about Luther's typical trash-talking. But of course, he had no doubt that Jesus and the Apostles were also Jewish. He exchanged schatological language with Thomas More for example. German-speakers in general seemed to be fond of schatalogical language; Mozart was another.
    The problem with Luther is not his language, it is what he says:

    1. First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. ...
    2. Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ...
    3. Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. . . .
    4. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ...
    5. Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ...
    6. Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. ... For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause. ...
    7. Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]). ...


    That last one sounds disturbingly familiar.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    The problem with Luther is not his language, it is what he says:

    1. First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. ...
    2. Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ...
    3. Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. . . .
    4. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ...
    5. Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ...
    6. Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. ... For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause. ...
    7. Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]). ...


    That last one sounds disturbingly familiar.
    Wow! That's some list. Luther wasn't German by any chance......
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
    and fighting against those humourless bureaucrats who are forever lost in the minutiae.

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