Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 21
  1. #1
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,608

    11.3.b Mobile Phones: Arbiters "instructed" to adopt change to Laws of Chess

    This is what was going to be passed in Tromso as a revision to the 2014 mobile phone rule 11.3.b:

    During a game, a player is
    forbidden to have a mobile phone, electronic means of communication or
    any device capable of suggesting chess moves on their person in the
    playing venue. However, the rules of the competition may allow such
    devices to be stored in a player’s bag, as long as the device is completely
    switched off. A player is forbidden to carry a bag holding such a device,
    without permission of the arbiter. If it is evident that a player has such a
    device on their person in the playing venue, the player shall lose the
    game. The opponent shall win. The rules of a competition may specify a
    different, less severe, penalty. The arbiter may require the player to allow
    his/her clothes, bags or other items to be inspected, in private. The arbiter
    or a person authorized by the arbiter shall inspect the player and shall be
    of the same gender as the player. If a player refuses to cooperate with
    these obligations, the arbiter shall take measures in accordance with
    Article 12.9.
    ... but it couldn't be passed because the GA was inquorate.

    The Arbiters Commission has now sent around a letter that says arbiters are "instructed" to adopt the rule change anyway.

    The letter continues:

    The interpretation of this change is as follows:

    In minor chess tournaments, where the players is not possible to leave their mobiles
    out of the playing hall and the organizers cannot provide an area for collecting the
    mobiles of all the players during the rounds, the Arbiters have the possibility to apply
    the new wording of the article 11.3.b., allowing the players to have their mobile
    phones in their bags, but completely switched off.

    The player shall inform the Arbiter before the start of the round, in case that a
    completely switched off mobile phone, or any electronic mean of communication, or
    any other device capable of suggesting chess moves is in his/her bag.

    All the above shall be included in the rules of competition (tournament regulations) of
    the specific event in advance. The Chief Arbiter may make an announcement before
    the start of the round.

    This possibility will not be valid for the World and Continental FIDE events.
    As far as I'm aware, this "instruction" has no formal validity. I think it would be good if people complied with it anyway, but it will probably end up in court somewhere ...

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,719
    I agree that the suggestion is a good one.

    Is this the first time FIDE has 'suggested' having different laws for 'minor' and 'major' tournaments? Do they define what a 'minor' event is?

    I like the word "inquorate" - I must see if I can use it in casual conversation

  3. #3
    CC Candidate Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    41
    I am interested to know what is the meaning of “bag” in this article.

    a.) Bag (in its broadest sense), any container made of a soft material, that can be closed at the mouth
    Or
    b.) Bag linked to own clothes(handbag, his trouser pocket, etc)

    The point of my question is – Have a player bring a specific bag to stored the movil? Or
    The player can store the movil in his trouser pocket or his jacket pocket, etc.
    The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

    FIDE Arbiter: Néstor Echeverría.

  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,608
    Pockets are excluded. "on their person" means not in a pocket. It must be in a bag that is separate from the player. A handbag would be OK if the player was not holding it, but not if the player was holding it.

  5. #5
    CC Candidate Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Pockets are excluded. "on their person" means not in a pocket. It must be in a bag that is separate from the player. A handbag would be OK if the player was not holding it, but not if the player was holding it.
    I do not agree with your argument.

    The article says:
    A player is forbidden to carry a bag holding such a device, without permission of the arbiter.
    Therefore, If you have a arbiter's permission then you can carry a bag holding.
    The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

    FIDE Arbiter: Néstor Echeverría.

  6. #6
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,608
    Quote Originally Posted by DontAcceptDraw View Post
    I do not agree with your argument.

    The article says:


    Therefore, If you have a arbiter's permission then you can carry a bag holding.
    Your question was about the meaning of "bag", and not about the ability of the arbiter to create exemptions.

    If you are going to ask about the meaning of terms, and then when provided with a useful answer say you don't agree based on something you were not asking, then there is really no point answering your questions.

  7. #7
    CC Candidate Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    41
    Sorry Kevin, I believe that I did not express myself well.
    I will try again:

    The point of my question is – Have a player bring a specific bag to stored the movil? Or
    The player can store the movil in his trouser pocket or his jacket pocket, etc (with the arbiter's permission).
    The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

    FIDE Arbiter: Néstor Echeverría.

  8. #8
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,608
    Quote Originally Posted by DontAcceptDraw View Post
    Have a player bring a specific bag to stored the movil? Or
    The player can store the movil in his trouser pocket or his jacket pocket, etc (with the arbiter's permission).
    Thanks, that makes sense now.

    Strictly, the player cannot store the mobile in their trouser or jacket pocket at all. A pocket is not a "bag". The rule as written does not allow the arbiter to permit the player to have the phone "on their person".

    So yes, the mobile must be in a separate bag (which could be a bag brought along just to put the mobile in). And the player is not allowed to carry that bag without the arbiter's permission.

  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    5,667
    What a ridiculous rule. Is it also necessary to get the arbiter's permission to carry a bag which contains a chess book?

    This seems like a great way to give amateurs incentives not to ever play in tournaments.

  10. #10
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,608
    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    What a ridiculous rule. Is it also necessary to get the arbiter's permission to carry a bag which contains a chess book?
    At least it is better than the 2014 Laws which ban a player from having a mobile phone in the playing area, even with the permission of the arbiter, even inside a bag that isn't being carried. I think it will have much less impact on amateurs - the new rule is only somewhat inconvenient for players who really need to have their phone at the venue while the 2014 rule just excluded those players altogether unless the organisers arranged mobile phone storage.

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    13,073
    And in my opinion all this was a complete waste of time. The 2009 rules, whilst they seemed draconian when first brought in, after 5 years of in use, almost all players learnt that they just had to turn their phones off and it was their responsibility.

    And there was ALWAYS the 'out' clause that if a player did need to be contacted, they could leave their phone with the arbiter, or other such permission.

    So lets rewind the clock, pun intended, to all those who said when the 2009 mobile phone rule was brought in that chess players were going to leave the game in droves because of it. exactly how many did leave the game because of it? Was it the record number that were claimed. Come on, tell me, how many in droves left the game. There were pages and pages on here about how draconian the rule was, how it was so harsh and was going to make the arbiters life a living hell. So come all the posters who claimed it was going to ruin tournaments forever. Time to put up or shut up. How many players LEFT IN DROVES, over the issue. What, maybe 5, perhaps 10, and did they really leave because of the if your mobile phone makes and audible sound in the playing hall you lose then they quit the game forever? So come on, tell me, how many left?

    Or did many more appreciate the fact they knew they could turn up to a tournament and not have to put up with the constant issue of mobile phone distractions and there was a clear penalty prescribed for anyone whose phone did ring.

    Are tournaments under the 2014 rules still able to use the 2009 rule if they wish?
    Last edited by Garvinator; 07-11-2014 at 10:14 PM. Reason: I want the facts, exact numbers.

  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Melbourne - Australia
    Posts
    11,695
    I think that it wasn't only the distraction caused by the audible sounds which resulted in the implementation of the new rules.
    It was also the ever increasing concern about phones and other electronic devices being used for cheating purposes!
    ACF 3118316
    FIDE 3201457

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    13,073
    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    I think that it wasn't only the distraction caused by the audible sounds which resulted in the implementation of the new rules.
    It was also the ever increasing concern about phones and other electronic devices being used for cheating purposes!
    I completely agree with you, but that is going off in the wrong tangent. I am now wanting to hear from all the chorus of protesters who said that that the 2009 mobile phone rule would cause the death of chess, mass extinctions and a few other world wide disasters (ok I might have been making that last bit up for effect). But at the time, I was in the clear minority stating very clearly that in fact that 2009 rule would be good for chess and that it is was exactly what was required.

    So I want to hear from all the doom sayers and have them admit they got it wrong. And I am also interested in why this rule needed to be re-written in the first place. Out of all the areas of the laws of chess that needed to be amended, in my opinion this was way at the bottom of the list. Sorting out the issue of anti cheating certainly was high on the agenda, but this rule could have been retained, whilst the extra bit added on.

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    13,073
    And, a not too small a point for here in Australia, when a person enters a shop, the shop is not actually allowed by law to search your bag. They can request that you open your bag for inspection. If you refuse, they give you two choices:

    1) Pay for any items that might be in your bag that you might have 'forgotten' that were in there.
    2) Be detained by security until police are called and then the police will carry out the bag search.

    So with rule of bag searches being part of the fide laws of chess, could not they not be in breach of Australian law? If major shops can not legally search a persons private property (only police or authorised law enforcement can), how can any old chess arbiter at some random chess event do so?

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,073
    Quote Originally Posted by Garvinator View Post
    And, a not too small a point for here in Australia, when a person enters a shop, the shop is not actually allowed by law to search your bag. They can request that you open your bag for inspection. If you refuse, they give you two choices:

    1) Pay for any items that might be in your bag that you might have 'forgotten' that were in there.
    2) Be detained by security until police are called and then the police will carry out the bag search.

    So with rule of bag searches being part of the fide laws of chess, could not they not be in breach of Australian law? If major shops can not legally search a persons private property (only police or authorised law enforcement can), how can any old chess arbiter at some random chess event do so?
    As peering over toilet walls to detect possible cheating also against Australian law so is not allowable? you tell me. Esp considering was juniors. No, you notify them that they will be asked to reveal any phones etc just as supermarkets do
    Last edited by antichrist; 08-11-2014 at 09:28 AM.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. "Dynamic Chess" solves the problem of blocked pawn chains
    By MatsW in forum General Chess Chat
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 29-04-2012, 09:27 PM
  2. Chess "Personality" Test - Informed opinions needed!
    By DeepGreene in forum General Chess Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 25-04-2011, 09:50 AM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-04-2011, 07:01 PM
  4. Savic's "Commentary on the Laws of Chess"
    By Kevin Bonham in forum Arbiters' Corner
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 25-11-2005, 07:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •