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  1. #1
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    ACF website updating [STRICTLY ON-TOPIC THREAD]

    Following Simon Dale taking over as ACF webmaster I've been able to update some sections of the ACF website. (Actually it seems I had the ability to do it for some time before that, but didn't know I had it and might not have known what to do with it anyway.) The following sections have been updated so far:

    front page
    ACF Honours Board
    Titled Players

    I will also be looking at some other sections depending on what I'm able to do with them.

    Over time Simon will be substantially reshaping the website and for the time being I am just dealing with stuff that is easy to do and that involves bringing out-of-date material up to date.

    If anyone has any corrections to this material then let me know. Note that the IM titles of Rishi Sardana and Anton Smirnov are not yet official despite being approved; they will be added when the 60-day public display window has elapsed.

    Moderation Note: The subject of the ACF website is a magnet for grandstanding and patronising comments by certain posters. This thread is for relevant discussion of updates to factual details only and any silly stuff will be deleted. Silly stuff might be best posted, if at all, to this thread:

    http://www.chesschat.org/showthread....n-ACF-Planning

    or any of a number of other similar threads.

  2. #2
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    Some questions for you….
    1. Who was Australian Champion in 2013?
    2. How can Murray Chandler have been Aust Junior Champion when he is a New Zealander?
    3. Why does the list of Aust Open Champions show players who tied for first when the title is awarded to one player (who presumably won on count-back)?
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
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  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammo View Post
    Some questions for you….
    1. Who was Australian Champion in 2013?
    The event won by Max Illingworth was held entirely in 2014, unlike previous events that for some time were held in part of one year and part of the other. I'm reviewing what the correct naming convention is in this case (if there is one) so it may be changed later.

    However convention has generally been that the time of winning the title is held, not the time of holding it.

    2. How can Murray Chandler have been Aust Junior Champion when he is a New Zealander?
    Thankyou, fixed with Chandler deleted. This was an existing error that had been up for some time. Chandler was ineligible (and listing Chandler and Dick as co-champions makes no sense at all since Dick was third and another ineligible player second). There may be other such existing errors that still need fixing - my focus was on updating out of date information.

    3. Why does the list of Aust Open Champions show players who tied for first when the title is awarded to one player (who presumably won on count-back)?
    I think the information that the title was awarded on countback is worth including in cases where it happened, as the list is entitled "Australian Open Winners" and there's always the argument that someone co-won the Open even if they did not win the title Open Champion. That's why it is recorded in this form for 2009 and 2011, which was at my suggestion.

    For the earlier cases of ties (1977, 1989 and 1991) I would like to include the same information if there was a unique title winner and if that unique title winner can be identified. However I do not even know whether countback was used to award the title in those years, let alone to whom if so. Any information on this would be welcome.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 07-09-2014 at 05:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I've now changed "Australian Championship Winners" to "Australian Champions" (convention is this list doesn't show top-scorers) and also "2009-10" to "2010" for the same reason as 2014.

    Incidentally if we listed Champions by times of holding title the list would look quite different, and to do so it would be necessary to check which Champions had unsuccessfully attempted to defend titles where the subsequent tournament was held over New Year's Eve. The reason is that if the Champion fails to enter the following Championship their title lapses immediately, but if they enter the subsequent tournament they keep their title until the end of the tournament (including any playoff they are personally involved in).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    The event won by Max Illingworth was held entirely in 2014, unlike previous events that for some time were held in part of one year and part of the other. I'm reviewing what the correct naming convention is in this case (if there is one) so it may be changed later.

    However convention has generally been that the time of winning the title is held, not the time of holding it.



    Thankyou, fixed with Chandler deleted. This was an existing error that had been up for some time. Chandler was ineligible (and listing Chandler and Dick as co-champions makes no sense at all since Dick was third and another ineligible player second). There may be other such existing errors that still need fixing - my focus was on updating out of date information.



    I think the information that the title was awarded on countback is worth including in cases where it happened, as the list is entitled "Australian Open Winners" and there's always the argument that someone co-won the Open even if they did not win the title Open Champion. That's why it is recorded in this form for 2009 and 2011, which was at my suggestion.

    For the earlier cases of ties (1977, 1989 and 1991) I would like to include the same information if there was a unique title winner and if that unique title winner can be identified. However I do not even know whether countback was used to award the title in those years, let alone to whom if so. Any information on this would be welcome.
    OK. Re: Australian Champions list. At the very least you should clarify what the data is attempting to say as a "man in the street" would surely read this as being a list of the tenure of the various title holders. I would also argue that (for instance) I did not win the title in 1973-74 but rather on 10.1.1974 (or thereabouts). You can't hold win title until you actually win the event.

    Similarly, on the AO list the word at the top of the list of names is "Champion." Clearly you need to either list just the champions or change this to "AO tournament winners" or similar.

    For your info. the Jan 1977 issue of CIA lists "1st T.Hay, 2nd S.Booth…."
    Last edited by jammo; 07-09-2014 at 06:06 PM.
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
    and fighting against those humourless bureaucrats who are forever lost in the minutiae.

  6. #6
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammo View Post
    OK. Re: Australian Champions list. At the very least you should clarify what the data is attempting to say as a "man in the street" would surely read this as being a list of the tenure of the various title holders.
    I agree that this is a good idea and have added an explanatory note. The formatting is suboptimal but this can be improved sometime later if/when I have more idea what I am doing.

    Similarly, on the AO list the word at the top of the list of names is "Champion." Clearly you need to either list just the champions or change this to "AO tournament winners" or similar.
    I don't agree that it is necessary or desirable to exclude information about tournament co-winners from the table, even with the title "Champions", so long as it is not implied they won the title, and so long as the list clarifies who the Champion is where this is known. So I won't be changing the current listing for 2009 or 2011 unless requested by the ACF Council or Executive. An explanatory note may be added re the others.

    For your info. the Jan 1977 issue of CIA lists "1st T.Hay, 2nd S.Booth…."
    Thanks, does it explicitly state that Hay won the title on countback? I'd want to be very sure about this as I'd hate to incorrectly de-title anyone!

    I'd assume that if he did that there is a unique Champion for each of the other tied years too, who is probably the first name listed.

    This probably deserves an explanatory note as well.

  7. #7
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Another matter deserving attention eventually is inconsistency between year conventions for the Australian Championships (which shows the years over which the event was contested if it went over NYE) and the year conventions for the Australian Open (which shows only the year in which the event ended). I am going to leave that one for now.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Another matter deserving attention eventually is inconsistency between year conventions for the Australian Championships (which shows the years over which the event was contested if it went over NYE) and the year conventions for the Australian Open (which shows only the year in which the event ended). I am going to leave that one for now.
    If you want a list of Australian Champions which is not misleading just look at the wiki list.
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
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  9. #9
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    For Australian Champions there are two significant issues I can see that will need clearing up. (I'll be changing existing items only when convinced that as they currently appear they are definitely incorrect.)

    1. A player originally called Lazare Suchilowski at some stage became known as Stefan Lazare. The current ACF page gives his name as S. Lazare but Wikipedia gives his name as L. Suchilowski. Hence it needs to be clarified which was correct at the time of winning the title.

    2. The current ACF page gives W.S. Viner as winning in 1912-3 in Bellingen (NSW). Wikipedia gives 1912 in Sydney (NSW) then 1913 in Bellingen (NSW). Ozbase gives separate tournaments for 1912 and 1913 but says both were in Bellingen. It looks like the ACF list has compressed two tournaments into one.

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Australian Title

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    For Australian Champions there are two significant issues I can see that will need clearing up. (I'll be changing existing items only when convinced that as they currently appear they are definitely incorrect.)

    1. A player originally called Lazare Suchilowski at some stage became known as Stefan Lazare. The current ACF page gives his name as S. Lazare but Wikipedia gives his name as L. Suchilowski. Hence it needs to be clarified which was correct at the time of winning the title.

    2. The current ACF page gives W.S. Viner as winning in 1912-3 in Bellingen (NSW). Wikipedia gives 1912 in Sydney (NSW) then 1913 in Bellingen (NSW). Ozbase gives separate tournaments for 1912 and 1913 but says both were in Bellingen. It looks like the ACF list has compressed two tournaments into one.
    Re 1., Lazare was always known as Lazare in Australia. Cecil Purdy wrote about the Australian Title that was tied by Lazare and Ozols after an inconclusive play-off - see Chess World February 1957, p.37. Lazare reversed his original name when he came to Australia. In 1957 he left Australia and migrated to Israel.

    Re 2., I thought we had considered this once before. Again, I think Cecil has something in Chess World about Australian Champions that helps clarify it. Cathy Chua, in Australian Chess at the Top, has the same information as in Wikipedia and I seem to recall that I found out that that is right. I may be able to trace the Purdy source but Paul Dunn will almost certainly know.

    DJ

    I have found the Purdy reference - Chess World, October 1964, p.145. Cecil lists all the champions to that date. The 1912 - 1913 situation was that W.S. Viner beat Dr L.B. Lancaster in a match in Sydney in 1912 (score+7,-2,=0) and he beat S. Crackanthorp in a match in Bellingen in 1913 (score +7,-1,=3). Those were pre-ACF titles. As a matter of interest, all but three of the pre-ACF titles were the result of matches. From the first ACF title in 1922, all titles have derived from tournaments.

    DJ
    Last edited by Denis_Jessop; 08-09-2014 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Further info.
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  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Looks like what has happened with the Australian Champions list is that someone has at some stage made assumptions that particular tournaments spanned two years (or else that it was a good idea to describe them as if doing so although they didn't). I have just fixed five of these apparent errors using date information from Ozbase.

    I would like to maintain the year-span information as some people like to know that a tournament was the 2011-12 Australian Championships rather than the 2012 Australian Championships. But if the year-span information still proves to have lots of errors then it may be abandoned.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 09-09-2014 at 12:59 PM.

  12. #12
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop View Post
    As a matter of interest, all but three of the pre-ACF titles were the result of matches. From the first ACF title in 1922, all titles have derived from tournaments.
    Ta. I have included the information that the early events were usually matches at the bottom. That being the case there is no need to promote the information that one of the specific events was a match (Jacobsen-Crane) so I've removed it.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Looks like what has happened with the Australian Champions list is that someone has at some stage made assumptions that particular tournaments spanned two years (or else that it was a good idea to describe them as if doing so although they didn't). I have just fixed five of these apparent errors using date information from Ozbase.

    I would like to maintain the year-span information as some people like to know that a tournament was the 2011-12 Australian Championships rather than the 2012 Australian Championships. But if the year-span information still proves to have lots of errors then it may be abandoned.
    I wonder why people look at this list? Do they want to find out the dates of the various tournaments or do they want to find out the tenure of the various champions? I would say the latter.
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    The following sections have been updated so far:

    front page
    Titled Players
    1) Why some players are listed twice, for example George Xie?

    2) It is very hard to find people. Is it possible to order them alphabetically within each category?

    Thanks.

  15. #15
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
    1) Why some players are listed twice, for example George Xie?
    Editing mistakes by me.

    2) It is very hard to find people. Is it possible to order them alphabetically within each category?
    It has been in rating order (whenever updated) in the past but it's a pain to keep it like that and I agree alphabetical is easier to find. So I'll convert it over (and hopefully not repeat too many in the process.) Thanks.

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