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  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles
    The Facts. I have a cup with one name engraved, you have an article with two names, Denis has a verbal statement that he was there and there should be two names and this decision was agreed by an organiser I have never met. The Wikipedia site lists one winner Ian Rogers.
    Take it up formally with Stephen Mugford (President of the ACTCA) and investigate it through the ACF and ACTCA. I am happy to make whatever changes to the website and the cup that are required from that investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    There is another relevant post on the subject here by Peter Parr.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_Parr
    Yesterday afternoon 11th April 2006 Paul Dunn ACTCA Treasurer advised me that the Doeberl Cup Permanent Trophy will be engraved with the names of both A.Wohl and I.Rogers for the year 2005. This confirms the decision of the ACTCA (the governing body of the Doeberl Cup) made last year as stated by the then ACTCA President Denis Jessop.
    The last time the permanent trophy shared was in 1970 when no count-back method had been announced before or during the event the same as in 2005.

    I have today advised Aleks Wohl who is in Germany making his final preparations for the Torino Olympiad.

    I will ask Amiel to take a photo of the engraved permanent trophy so I can email it to Aleks as he has requested.
    Note the last sentences – Dunn/Amiel

    The Doeberl Cup trophy was updated by ACTCA Treasurer Paul Dunn clearly with the names I.Rogers 2005 and A.Wohl 2005.

    The photo of the Doeberl Cup with both Rogers 2005 and Wohl 2005 has been available since the photo was taken on 18th April 2006 by Amiel Rosario.

    The photo can be seen at Flickr
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/closetg...7594110303179/
    with many other Doeberl Cup 2006 photos.

    Charles advises in 2010 that only the name of I.Rogers 2005 is now on the trophy.

    If the plaque with both names has been removed after 18th April 2006 and replaced with only I.Rogers 2005 who replaced it? Who authorized it?

    If the plaque was removed and replaced with only one name without authority of the ACTCA the new plaque is surely a fake bring the game into disrepute.

    The governing body of the 2005 Doeberl Cup was the ACTCA as it had been for many years.

    Wohl and Rogers tied for first place. The ACTCA had to determine who won the permanent trophy in the absence of a count-back system from the chief arbiter.

    After consulting with his colleagues ACTCA President and eminent lawyer Denis Jessop spoke together with Wohl and Rogers advising that both players be equally on the Doeberl Cup permanent trophy. There was no dissent from the decision. No appeal was lodged either verbally or in writing over the five year period since the decision was made.

    Finally – the arbiter of any tournament is answerable to the governing body of the event or he should not be chief arbiter. The correct process was followed and the arbiter should confirm the process was correct and should confirm that both Rogers and Wohl shared the 2005 Doeberl Cup permanent trophy.

    Peter Parr
    5 times Doeberl Cup participant (tied for 1st place at my last attempt but lost the count-back for the trophy).
    20 times chief arbiter Doeberl Cup always with a written count-back system.
    4 times NSWCA President including 2010.

  2. #527
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_Parr
    The governing body of the 2005 Doeberl Cup was the ACTCA as it had been for many years.

    Wohl and Rogers tied for first place. The ACTCA had to determine who won the permanent trophy in the absence of a count-back system from the chief arbiter.

    After consulting with his colleagues ACTCA President and eminent lawyer Denis Jessop spoke together with Wohl and Rogers advising that both players be equally on the Doeberl Cup permanent trophy. There was no dissent from the decision. No appeal was lodged either verbally or in writing over the five year period since the decision was made.

    Finally – the arbiter of any tournament is answerable to the governing body of the event or he should not be chief arbiter. The correct process was followed and the arbiter should confirm the process was correct and should confirm that both Rogers and Wohl shared the 2005 Doeberl Cup permanent trophy.
    I can confirm that this is a correct account of what happened subject to the following.

    The brochure for the rournament stated that "In the event of a tie for trophies, the winner will be decided on a countback of scores." (I still have a copy of the brochure.) That alone is ambiguous as it is not clear what a "countback of scores" means. I cannot say whether any clarifying announcement was made at the tournament. This matter is covered in some detail in the Doeberl Cup 2006 thread.

    Actually, Roger McCart, the Convenor of the Organising Committee, consulted me for my opinion though I can't remember precisely what caused him to do this. At the time the chief arbiter complained that the arbiters had not been consulted. Roger McCart and I took the view that the decision was not one that should involve the arbiters.

    Also, I might abstain from the view that I am an "eminent" lawyer though I thank Peter for the compliment.
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

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  3. #528
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Shaun has made a comment on the Wikipedia discussion page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Doeberl_Cup) to the effect that he disagreed with the decision but thinks since it was made by the organisers it should stand.

  4. #529
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Shaun has made a comment on the Wikipedia discussion page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talkoeberl_Cup) to the effect that he disagreed with the decision but thinks since it was made by the organisers it should stand.
    Shaun's account pretty much lines up with my recollection except that I don't remember being told that Ian was first on tie-break or that Aleks' only question was whether his name would be on the trophy. I would not have agreed with the tie proposal had I been told that a countback had determined otherwise. My recollection on this point is not clear but I think that I was told that after a countback the players were still tied. As Shaun's statement implies, I was not involved in any discussions with him at the time. Any relevant discussions would have been with Roger McCart. Also I understood that I was being consulted by Roger as the ACTCA President, not as a member of the Organising Committee though I probably was one (but not a key one).
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

    In Arsène we Trust!

  5. #530
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    And before we all get any more het up about false plaques etc can I suggest I double check the trophy next week when it returns from the engravers and is at the tournament. I looked at it and saw 2005 I Rogers. A second engraving may be elsewhere on the cup or it may not. I may not have read a second name that was there. Human error has been known to occur.

  6. #531
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Jono?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Wikipedia title-holder winner information is often wrong. For instance I saw recently that David Dick was listed as tying with Murray Chandler for the 1975 Aus Junior in Hobart. Actually Dick came third behind Chandler and another ineligible player. I fixed that one too.
    Wasn't that ineligible player one J Sarfati, then living in Wellington, NZ?
    God exists. Short and to the point.

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  7. #532
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    Wasn't that ineligible player one J Sarfati, then living in Wellington, NZ?
    No, it was New Zealander Kai Jensen.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

  8. #533
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    No, it was New Zealander Kai Jensen.
    Yes, this was a bit before my time. It was the 1981 champs where I was ineligible despite tying because I was a NZ resident.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  9. #534
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Kai and Jono

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    No, it was New Zealander Kai Jensen.
    Ta, Bill. I played Kai Jensen many years ago in the South Island champs. Very sadly, IIRC, he died young. He was a talented chess player.
    There was a year that Jono played in Aus Junior as a Kiwi, and finished second or so. Jono or Bill or Kevin, which one was it? (Edit: Just saw Jono's post above!!)
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly playing at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

    Favorite movie line: Girl friend Cathy to Jack Ryan in "Sum of all Fears". "What kind of emergency does an historian have?".

  10. #535
    CC FIDE Master Metro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    Ta, Bill. I played Kai Jensen many years ago in the South Island champs. Very sadly, IIRC, he died young.
    I think this is incorrect.I met him at Hobson's Bay C.C.Here is an interesting profile http://www.hobsonsbaychess.info/arch...ers/kaijen.htm Looking further,he was working at Monash Uni.in Melbourne last year.

  11. #536
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    So pleased to hear that

    Quote Originally Posted by Met
    I think this is incorrect.I met him at Hobson's Bay C.C.Here is an interesting profile http://www.hobsonsbaychess.info/arch...ers/kaijen.htm Looking further,he was working at Monash Uni.in Melbourne last year.
    Thanks, Met. I am really pleased to hear that as somebody had told me a rumour he had died. Might have been someone else with the same name. My deepest pologies to Kai if he reads this thread. I should know better than putting unsubstantiated material in the public domain. Kai was (and no doubt is) a really nice guy.
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly playing at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

    Favorite movie line: Girl friend Cathy to Jack Ryan in "Sum of all Fears". "What kind of emergency does an historian have?".

  12. #537
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    Thanks, Met. I am really pleased to hear that as somebody had told me a rumour he had died. Might have been someone else with the same name. My deepest pologies to Kai if he reads this thread. I should know better than putting unsubstantiated material in the public domain. Kai was (and no doubt is) a really nice guy.
    One time when it is good to be wrong. I agree with you. I lost to him when I was 11.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  13. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Met
    I think this is incorrect.I met him at Hobson's Bay C.C.Here is an interesting profile http://www.hobsonsbaychess.info/arch...ers/kaijen.htm Looking further,he was working at Monash Uni.in Melbourne last year.
    Quite an interesting story in the profile.
    Scott

  14. #539
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Very interesting - google Kai Jensen too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    Quite an interesting story in the profile.
    Scott
    Indeed. Quite the longest profile of a non -master player I have read. A pity he's a Buddhist (but that's not this thread...). I still have my scoresheets from the South Island where Kai Jensen was second and beat me. The year was 1976. Also, a J Adams loss to K Jensen in NZ Junior Chps in the same year (the only 2 times I recall playing him - I lost both games) is in chessgames.com. Google "Kai Jensen and New Zealand Chess" and you even find this thread!!! Plus books he has written on masculine theme in literature.
    Last edited by Adamski; 24-03-2010 at 11:25 PM.
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly playing at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

    Favorite movie line: Girl friend Cathy to Jack Ryan in "Sum of all Fears". "What kind of emergency does an historian have?".

  15. #540
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I see Wohl has written the following on Amiel's blog:

    Seriously? This is still a topic of discussion? Really Amiel, I didn't care then and I couldn't possibly care less now.

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