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  1. #1
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Shortest Stalemate (sf 2014 Ballarat Begonia)

    Quote Originally Posted by SHump View Post
    Can you get to 'insufficient material' or 'stalemate' in under 15 moves - that could be a challenge??
    Stalemate - easily

    Answer (not originally by me*) in white: 1. e3 a5 2. Qh5 Ra6 3. Qxa5 h5 4. h4 Rah6 5. Qxc7 f6 6. Qxd7+ Kf7 7. Qxb7 Qd3 8. Qxb8 Qh7 9. Qxc8 Kg6 10. Qe6

    Insufficient material would be more difficult.

    Edit: * It was originally composed by Sam Loyd.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  2. #2
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHump View Post
    . Can you get to 'insufficient material' or 'stalemate' in under 15 moves - that could be a challenge??
    There is a possible stalemate in 10 moves as demonstrated by the puzzle genius Sam Loyd (EDIT: this is a variant of it, Rincewind gives the correct version above):

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    However that is a help-stalemate. You would not get one in under 15 moves unless the players were copying that one or doing something else silly like that.

    I am not sure what the fastest possible dead-position draw is but I am pretty sure it would be longer than 15 moves since a dead-position draw will typically require capture of nearly all the pieces or else extensive blocking with pawn chains.

    Bill is correct - these anti-draw rules can't regulate repetitions, unless you have reason to believe the players pre-arranged the draw.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 11-02-2014 at 06:48 PM.

  3. #3
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Not that this stalemate posted by Kevin (1. c4 h5 2. h4 a5 3. Qa4 Ra6 4. Qxa5 Rah6 5. Qxc7 f6 6. Qxd7+ Kf7 7. Qxb7 Qd3 8. Qxb8 Qh7 9. Qxc8 Kg6 10. Qe6) is slightly different to the one I posted a few post earlier. It might be interesting to see if both variants are original to Loyd or whether one was composed later and possibly by a different composer. There is also a similar one attributed to Fredrick Rhine which goes 1.d4 c5 2.dxc5 f6 3.Qxd7+ Kf7 4.Qxd8 Bf5 5.Qxb8 h5 6.Qxa8 Rh6 7.Qxb7 a6 8.Qxa6 Bh7 9.h4 Kg6 10.Qe6.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Yes I found one that had been played by some juniors in a game somewhere (clearly as pre-arranged showing off) that someone attributed as the Loyd stalemate but it actually has a different move order to the original, so the person attributing it as such was wrong. And more fool me for believing them without checking it.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 11-02-2014 at 06:59 PM.

  5. #5
    CC International Master ElevatorEscapee's Avatar
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    And here's a compisition of my own - the shortest draw by threefold repetition!

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    And with the same position reached for the third time, with the same player to move, White can claim a draw by threefold repetition!

    Move over Sam Lloyd, a new genius has just moved into town!
    "On my chess set, all the pawns are Hamburglers" ~ Homer Simpson.

  6. #6
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Sorry, but records are made to be broken:

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    Black now writes the move 4...Ng8 on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter that he intends to play that move and claims a draw under 9.2a.

    As the game is drawn from the time of his valid claim this is half a move shorter.

  7. #7
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    The following is also due to Loyd. It is 12 moves but without any captures.

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    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #8
    CC Candidate Master SHump's Avatar
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    Yes I found one that had been played by some juniors in a game somewhere (clearly as pre-arranged showing off)
    I think it would be interesting to see what the player with the black pieces (of the solution where lots of captures happened) just before the penultimate move (move 10)... will my opponent or won't my opponent carry through with our plan for a stalemate; would my opponent suddenly get too greedy? A level of trust amongst conspirators is needed..
    Scott.. enjoying Melbourne and Wyndham Chess Club and Hobsons Bay Chess club!

  9. #9
    CC International Master
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    A quick database search shows the Loyd stalemates or variations occurring a number of times. There are also a couple of other obviously pre-planned stalemates in less than 30.

    There are others under 30 (though none under 15) that don’t appear to be scripted. Mainly these are low level games where one player loses most of their pieces and the other either forgets the stalemate rule or allows a basic sacrifice to jettison the last mobile piece.

    However the following game looks realistic, it's possible but unlikely that it was composed or previously published as fantasy analysis.

    In fact the game was played again in a 2013 Saint Petersburg game between 2000+ players; that suggests a planned copy of the earlier game.

    [Event "ITA-chT 19th"]
    [Site "Ravenna "]
    [Date "1982.04.??"]
    [White "Sibilio, Mario"]
    [Black "Mariotti, Sergio"]
    [Result "1/2-1/2"]
    [ECO "C00"]
    [WhiteElo "2305"]
    [BlackElo "2455"]
    [EventCountry "ITA"]

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  10. #10
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Yes I found one that had been played by some juniors in a game somewhere (clearly as pre-arranged showing off) that someone attributed as the Loyd stalemate but it actually has a different move order to the original, so the person attributing it as such was wrong. And more fool me for believing them without checking it.
    IIRC there was some brief controversy over this at the time. It was played in the 1995 Swedish Juniors between Upmark and Johansson.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  11. #11
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    All pieces off the board (except kings of course) in 17 moves. Again by Sam Loyd.

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    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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