View Poll Results: Will Kevin Bonham defeat Stockfish at blitz (4/2) within two years?

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  • Yes and within the first 100 attempts (no longer possible)

    0 0%
  • Yes in 101-500 attempts (no longer possible)

    4 36.36%
  • Yes after more than 500 attempts

    2 18.18%
  • No

    4 36.36%
  • Obligatory "who cares?" type option

    1 9.09%
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  1. #16
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Shouldn't a top program learn from what's gone before and avoid repeating a drawing line?
    God exists. Short and to the point.

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  2. #17
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
    Shouldn't a top program learn from what's gone before and avoid repeating a drawing line?
    Ideally yes, but since I'm just using it as a drop-in with Fritz, the Fritz opening book goes out of book after 17.Na5. But it is only after 21...Ne7 that the draw always happens and because of the high degree of randomisation of moves, that position doesn't come up very often from the position after 17.Na5. So it seems like it isn't learning to not play 21...Ne7.

    I might try switching the opening book off and seeing what happens!

    Compared to my old Fritz it really is disturbingly strong. Even in symmetrical and positional games like in the line above it's difficult for me to make even 8-10 moves in a level position and not start losing.

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Compared to my old Fritz it really is disturbingly strong. Even in symmetrical and positional games like in the line above it's difficult for me to make even 8-10 moves in a level position and not start losing.
    Could there not be some sort of "contempt" factor built in, where it declines draws unless it is disadvantaged by say -0.9 (i.e. plays on unless a clear pawn or more down)?
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  4. #19
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Could there not be some sort of "contempt" factor built in, where it declines draws unless it is disadvantaged by say -0.9 (i.e. plays on unless a clear pawn or more down)?
    That can be applied for casual games but for rated games it seems it has pre-applied settings for whether it allows a draw or not. I'm unsure whether they take into account what the computer has on file about the opponent's rating.

  5. #20
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    What does "Fritz 11 doubles" mean?
    meep meep

  6. #21
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    What does "Fritz 11 doubles" mean?
    I actually tried (unsuccessfully) to delete those three posts last night when I discovered that the draws and in some cases missed wins I had had just in the last week were in fact attributable to poor old Fritz 11 having been loaded as the blitz engine instead of Stockfish! (They are now deleted). However, whatever engine is loaded there is a notional "money supply" where you can "bet" on games against the computer, and it works the same way as backgammon - either side can offer to double and the other side can either resign (losing the present stake) or play on (doubling the stake for both sides). Having doubled you can't redouble until the opponent doubles.

  7. #22
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I actually tried (unsuccessfully) to delete those three posts last night when I discovered that the draws and in some cases missed wins I had had just in the last week were in fact attributable to poor old Fritz 11 having been loaded as the blitz engine instead of Stockfish! (They are now deleted). However, whatever engine is loaded there is a notional "money supply" where you can "bet" on games against the computer, and it works the same way as backgammon - either side can offer to double and the other side can either resign (losing the present stake) or play on (doubling the stake for both sides). Having doubled you can't redouble until the opponent doubles.
    Ah ok thanks, I had no idea you could do that. I though it meant double rooks or pawns or something.
    meep meep

  8. #23
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    At the 410th attempt, this is my second genuine draw (as opposed to theory-type repetitions or repeats of previous draws) against the beast. (And yes this time it is really Stockfish and I haven't gone back to Fritz by mistake). In this game I thought I was going to be brilliantly defeated but it turned out it had nothing.

    Bonham - Stockfish:

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    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 03-07-2015 at 12:26 AM.

  9. #24
    CC International Master Agent Smith's Avatar
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    I think the correct thread should be "In yer dreams ..."
    Why didn't it play 19.... Bxh3 ? What time control are you using.

  10. #25
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenaaus View Post
    I think the correct thread should be "In yer dreams ..."
    Why didn't it play 19.... Bxh3 ? What time control are you using.
    4/2 as noted in the poll. I had a number of near-wins last night as well. It isn't actually the latest Stockfish version, just the one that was current at the time I started the test; when I beat it I'll upgrade it to the latest version. If I leave it running it takes it about 20 seconds to see that 19...Bxh3 is best.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    At the 410th attempt, this is my second genuine draw (as opposed to theory-type repetitions or repeats of previous draws) against the beast. (And yes this time it is really Stockfish and I haven't gone back to Fritz by mistake). In this game I thought I was going to be brilliantly defeated but it turned out it had nothing.

    Bonham - Stockfish:

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    Looking Good Kevin

  12. #27
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    A terrible disaster has affected my attempts to beat the beast on my system. I had discovered that it was especially susceptible as black in the following Rossolimo line:

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    ...and had played a large number of games against it in this line, frequently getting won positions but never being quite able to put them away (they were often something like, say, +2.5 in a messy queen ending). All I had to show for it was a bunch of draws. Tonight when I opened Fritz, which I am using as a shell for Stockfish, there was an engine load error and as a result I "won" a game on time. Unfortunately this has resulted in the opening book learning function learning not to play the Sicilian and I am now kicked back down to the bottom of the mountain with its preference switching to 1...e5. (edit: disabused it of that quick smart but now it's playing 1...c5 2...d6).

    On the basis of those near-wins I did vote that I would beat Stockfish in the poll but I now suspect knocking it over within the remaining months will be too hard.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 30-07-2015 at 01:01 AM.

  13. #28
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Or not!

    I was actually slightly overcounting the number of serious attempts I had made before because the auto-save function was double-counting some games.

    However after 561 attempts (437 white, 124 black - games resigned within 10 moves not counted) I've finally beaten the copy of Stockfish I installed at the start of last year. My target was to beat it within two years and it has actually taken me exactly 19 months. 34 of the 561 games were draws (several of those more or less repeats of the same line) and I could have drawn more but quite often resigned drawn positions if I had no chance of winning them.

    Of course it's not "pure Stockfish" that I've beaten - it's Stockfish playing inside the shell of an old Fritz, which means some limitations in terms of book and the learning function. Probably better though than if it has to play without a learning function and book at all.

    Bonham,Kevin (2150) - Stockfish DD 64 SSE4.2 (2794) [B51]
    Blitz:4'+2", 21.08.2015

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    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 21-08-2015 at 11:25 PM.

  14. #29
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Congratulations Kevin!
    meep meep

  15. #30
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    Well done Kevin

    I tried to download your game and all I got was...

    [Event "Unkown"]
    [Site "Unkown"]
    [Date "Unkown"]
    [Round "Unkown"]
    [White "Unkown"]
    [Black "Unkown"]
    [Result "Unkown"]
    [SetUp "0"]



    If you can upload your game to http://en.lichess.org/paste

    The site will Analyse it for you
    Last edited by TheARBChessSys; 07-09-2015 at 10:21 PM.

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