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Thread: Illegal Move

  1. #31
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    NO. Player B is entitled to touch one of their pieces and move it as soon as Player A releases the piece on its intended square, provided Player A's move is legal.
    Player B can do it even if Player A's move was illegal, it is just that:
    a) the position should revert to that prior to the illegal move if player A does not press his clock
    b) if player A does press his clock after player B has [b]already moved[b] then the illegal move would stand and the game continue as per Article A4b.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Ok...so the rule is..I can complete my move before opponent presses the clock? Thx, I got it.
    You can certainly make your move before your opponent presses his clock.

    In the FIDE language, the terms `make' and `complete' are carefully defined and have different meanings. Bill explains this in post #15.
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  3. #33
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Ok...so the rule is..I can complete my move before opponent presses the clock? Thx, I got it.
    No the rule is you can touch your piece and make your move before your opponent presses their clock. That is you have made your move.

    To complete your move you would have to press your clock. This wouldn't be possible as your clock isn't running as your opponent hasn't pressed their clock.

    Your opponent is always permitted to stop his clock even if you have made your move.
    As such your opponent could stop his clock and you could then immediately restart his clock as you had already made you move in reply to his move.
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  4. #34
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    My Interpretation of events, it has been discussed here but I will provide as an additional person.

    Yes that was happening and good decision Bill. James Morris was forfeited against Anton Smirnov when Anton played a move, and James touched a piece in reply prior to Anton pressing the clock. Following a complaint from Anton he was awarded the game on forfeit. James appealed but the appeals committee was Leonid Sandler, Jamie Kenmure and Robert Jammison. (Not 100% sure if Jammo was an official appeals member, but there were a group fo them outside "reviewing" the decision) 2 of which were arbiters in the event and responsible for the decision. If the rules of chess mimic in anyway the rules of the real world you cannot have the original decision makers as also the individuals to review the same decision on appeal. The whole situation was ridiculous. Even if this new "rule" was actually endorsed by FIDE which I seriously doubt, I am sure the first response is not recommended to be an immediate forfeit with no warning.

    Common sense also came towards questions of abuse. If this rule was actually a rule what would prevent a player from making a move and feigning to press the clock. So for example they simply bang the table near the clock. In almost all situations you opponent would reply by touching a piece and making their move leaving the person who faked pressing the clock as the immediate winner.

  5. #35
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Altecman's comment "... good decision Bill" is in response to the following post I made in the 2016 Victorian Blitz Championship thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    This tournament was registered with FIDE and as such is to be played under the FIDE Laws of Chess (this is an absolute requirement).

    It is being reported that the following was stated at the start of the tournament and enforced by the arbiters:
    Many people were shocked by the announcement of this new 'rule' in the opening statements of the tournament it being said that - If your opponent does not press his clock after making a move, and you reply with your own move, then you will be forfeited
    Also:
    I then tried to get a clear answer on when the you can be legally forfeited, I was told, with complete certainty, that the FIDE laws state that if your opponent does not press their clock and you touch a piece which can legally move, then you can be forfeited
    If I find that this was indeed the case then the tournament was not played according to the FIDE Laws of Chess and as such cannot legitimately be FIDE rated and therefore in my capacity as the ACF FIDE Ratings Officer I will not submit it for FIDE rating.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos View Post
    Altecman's comment "... good decision Bill" is in response to the following post I made in the 2016 Victorian Blitz Championship thread.
    Thanks Bill. I was not informed of the extra thread until after I posted.

  7. #37
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    BTW if the tournament is not submitted for FIDE rating then it also wont be ACF rated.
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  8. #38
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    From following this thread, I think there should be some serious questions asked about the knowledge and standards of rules of the arbiters involved and whether they are deserved of the titles they have.

  9. #39
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Also following this (and the other) thread, some serious answers could be given incl. that too many cooks spoil the broth. But then again that's democracy!
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  10. #40
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    I have a question to ask

    If opponent (player B) is knocking over pieces in time scramble (say blitz game with no increment), player A cannot claim a win by illegal move but can ask opponent to adjust the pieces in their own time. Can player A press the clock and restart the opponents time? (making no move is considered an illegal move). Could player B claim a win by illegal move in this case? (seems ridiculous)

    I understand the arbiter can punish player B under 12.9 if player A stops clock and calls over the arbiter.

  11. #41
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kethro View Post
    I have a question to ask

    If opponent (player B) is knocking over pieces in time scramble (say blitz game with no increment), player A cannot claim a win by illegal move but can ask opponent to adjust the pieces in their own time. Can player A press the clock and restart the opponents time? (making no move is considered an illegal move). Could player B claim a win by illegal move in this case? (seems ridiculous)

    I understand the arbiter can punish player B under 12.9 if player A stops clock and calls over the arbiter.
    Technically Player A should stop the clock and call the arbiter, but it is very common for players to press the clock and restart the opponent's time and I think very few arbiters would take any action against a player under the current Laws for doing so. A claim for illegal move would be rejected as pressing the clock without making a move is not an illegal move no matter how many people think it is.

    In the 2017 Laws effective from July will be the following:

    7.8.1 The player is not allowed to press the clock without making a move.
    7.8.2 For the first violation of the rule 7.8.1, the arbiter shall warn the player and may give
    two minutes extra time to his opponent; for the second violation of the rule 7.8.1 by the
    same player the arbiter shall declare the game lost by this player. However, the game is
    drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by
    any possible series of legal moves.

    This will make pressing the clock without moving similar to an illegal move in terms of punishment, but not identical (eg a player who does one of each won't automatically be defaulted). However unlike the illegal move rule, it will not lead to loss of game for a single offence in blitz and rapid. So it will result in a warning, in theory, though some arbiters may not bother to apply a warning in the situation you describe.

  12. #42
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvinator View Post
    From following this thread, I think there should be some serious questions asked about the knowledge and standards of rules of the arbiters involved and whether they are deserved of the titles they have.
    I agree. This is a general issue and I'm going to discuss it on a separate thread.

  13. #43
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    The FIDE Rules Commission has ruled that trying to prevent a player from starting their move before the opponent has completed theirs is a departure from the Laws of Chess. They have also said that a rule that a player can only make their move after the opponent had completed theirs could cause problems.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    The FIDE Rules Commission has ruled that trying to prevent a player from starting their move before the opponent has completed theirs is a departure from the Laws of Chess. They have also said that a rule that a player can only make their move after the opponent had completed theirs could cause problems.
    If this is the case, where were the arbiters in Vic/QLD misled?

  15. #45
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThebeJohnston View Post
    If this is the case, where were the arbiters in Vic/QLD misled?
    The CA of the Victorian event seems to have come up with a misinterpretation of his own accord based on some kind of misreading of part of 6.2 and then no-one who should have talked him out of it did so.

    The Queensland tournament (Australian Blitz) was run according to the Laws as they have generally been understood and consistent with this ruling - a player can commence making their move and can indeed make their move once the opponent's move has been made (not completed).

    Among the various emails flying about after the Victorian Blitz (and apparently seen by some of the Qld organisers who may have intended to apply the same interpretation as Vic*) there were personal opinions from two Rules Commission members. One of those was different to what the Commission ended up ruling and is therefore now irrelevant. The other was consistent with the final ruling. In fact, personal opinions have never had any standing compared to the past history of formal decisions on the issue.

    (* I was never made aware of any such possible intention until comments here after the event.)
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 23-01-2017 at 11:53 PM.

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