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Thread: Illegal Move

  1. #76
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    Well I can see Garvinator's point that we can feel a little sorry for the arbiter - not because it isn't a howler (it is) but because we all make mistakes, especially under pressure.

    Which leads me to wonder if arbiters for these major events ever do any training, other than on-the-job. The scenario is not especially unusual or difficult once you grasp the essential points and it should be second nature, but maybe the arbiter was a bit out of practice. Similarly the team of stunned-mullet arbiters who allowed double-handled castling a while back. Perhaps some role-playing beforehand, and an arbiters' coach analogous to referees' coaches in football, might be beneficial.

  2. #77
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Was either player given additional time after the position was reset?
    meep meep

  3. #78
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Was either player given additional time after the position was reset?
    The game was never restarted as Inarkiev refused to continue and was forfeited. He appealed but his appeal was dismissed.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  4. #79
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    I can't. The video shows clearly that the arbiter should have known Carlsen had not made an illegal move:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtu9DqGin4M
    Showing how little interest I have shown in the event as a whole until this incident, I was not aware that there was video footage available to the original arbiter.

  5. #80
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout View Post
    Which leads me to wonder if arbiters for these major events ever do any training, other than on-the-job.
    This is one part of the problem. Once arbiters get their titles there is no further testing, retesting or training program administered by FIDE. Some national federations may have them. The other problem is the question of who would run it if there was. With few exceptions, those recognised by FIDE as leading arbiters at various times have sometimes, or in some cases often, given rulings (at least in answer to queries) that are obviously wrong.

    The scenario is not especially unusual or difficult once you grasp the essential points and it should be second nature, but maybe the arbiter was a bit out of practice.
    I'm not sure about that. His arbiter records show he has been very active with a dozen refereeing events in the last year, many of them as Chief Arbiter of multi-divisional events. The situation may just not have come up for him in a blitz event before.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 01-01-2018 at 08:04 PM.

  6. #81
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvinator View Post
    Showing how little interest I have shown in the event as a whole until this incident, I was not aware that there was video footage available to the original arbiter.
    I'm not sure the video was available (conveniently) to him, only that it is available to us to see what he could see of the position.

  7. #82
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hardegen View Post
    For Competition Rules to apply in Blitz, you need one arbiter per board.
    I do not believe that is quite the full story, especially for this event. How many arbiters did they have for the number of boards?

    Rules for blitz from July 1 2017 to December 31 2017

    Appendix B. Blitz

    B.1 A ‘blitz’ game is one where all the moves must be completed in a fixed time of 10 minutes or less for each player; or the allotted time plus 60 times any increment is 10 minutes or less.

    B.2 The penalties mentioned in Articles 7 and 9 of the Competition Rules shall be one minute instead of two minutes.

    B.3.1 The Competition Rules shall apply if:

    B.3.1.1 one arbiter supervises one game and

    B.3.1.2 each game is recorded by the arbiter or his assistant and, if possible, by electronic means.

    B.3.2 The player may at any time, when it is his move, ask the arbiter or his assistant to show him the scoresheet. This may be requested a maximum of five times in a game. More requests shall be considered as a distraction of the opponent.

    B.4 Otherwise, play shall be governed by the Rapid chess Laws as in Article A.2 and A.4.

    B.5 The regulations of an event shall specify whether Article B.3 or Article B.4 shall apply for the entire event.
    Appendix A. Rapid chess

    A.1 A ‘Rapid chess’ game is one where either all the moves must be completed in a fixed time of more than 10 minutes but less than 60 minutes for each player; or the time allotted plus 60 times any increment is of more than 10 minutes but less than 60 minutes for each player.

    A.2 Players do not need to record the moves, but do not lose their rights to claims normally based on a scoresheet. The player can, at any time, ask the arbiter to provide him with a scoresheet, in order to write the moves.

    A.3.1 The Competition Rules shall apply if:

    A.3.1.1 one arbiter supervises at most three games and

    A.3.1.2 each game is recorded by the arbiter or his assistant and, if possible, by electronic means.

    A.3.2 The player may at any time, when it is his move, ask the arbiter or his assistant to show him the scoresheet. This may be requested a maximum of five times in a game. More requests shall be considered as a distraction of the opponent.
    The rest of the Rapid play rules incorrect piece placement, claims for initial set up etc.

  8. #83
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvinator View Post
    I do not believe that is quite the full story, especially for this event. How many arbiters did they have for the number of boards?
    What you believe is irrelevant.
    The applicable regulations stated that the tournaments (Rapid and Blitz) would be played according to the inadequate supervision rules.
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  9. #84
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    The sound reason for the rule is to eliminate king capture because a king capture may remove the evidence of its own illegality. So for instance white captures black's king, which stands on e8 and claims a win. Black then counter-claims that white's queen was on d1 and the king capture was illegal. The arbiter was watching from a distance and could see a long queen capture but not which square it started from. In contrast, suppose white simply claims a win and stops the clock. The arbiter can see that white has not made a move and can come over and see that an illegal move must have been made.

    I did put it to Geurt once that this was a particularly good reason for banning king capture and he said that is why it was banned. I am puzzled that people consider the rule to be silly when there is this good reason for it. They assume it must be a purist killjoy thing because that is how they experience it.

    There are other arguments for banning it - for instance what happens if one or both kings is/are captured but the players just carry on playing without the capturer claiming a win.
    To add a bit more to this. With king captures being banned, the correct procedure when a player has left their king in check and pressed the clocked (that is an important distinction), is to stop the clock, point it out to the opponent and call for the arbiter. Then in 999/1000 occasions, the player who has left their king in check will realise their error and resign, without even needing the arbiter.

    If king captures are legal, then it introduces the situation that KB discusses, where players and the arbiter either disagree or can not work out whether the king was in check or not and then one or both players ends up not happy with the arbiters final ruling.

  10. #85
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvinator View Post
    To add a bit more to this. With king captures being banned, the correct procedure when a player has left their king in check and pressed the clocked (that is an important distinction), is to stop the clock, point it out to the opponent and call for the arbiter. Then in 999/1000 occasions, the player who has left their king in check will realise their error and resign, without even needing the arbiter.
    Except that now that it is 2018 the player will no longer accept they have lost, because they haven't anymore. I think we'll see a lot of players just agreeing to fix the illegal move without bothering to claim it.

  11. #86
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Except that now that it is 2018 the player will no longer accept they have lost, because they haven't anymore. I think we'll see a lot of players just agreeing to fix the illegal move without bothering to claim it.
    And that will, of course, lead to the inevitable second illegal move claim and Player A claims the win and the arbiter has to say, sorry pal, but this is only the first one 'through the arbiter'.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvinator View Post
    And that will, of course, lead to the inevitable second illegal move claim and Player A claims the win and the arbiter has to say, sorry pal, but this is only the first one 'through the arbiter'.
    I think it counts as the second illegal move unless the opponent disagrees.

  13. #88
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    I'm new to this arena, but given the comment about a second illegal move, which is now terminal, how does one indicate on a score sheet that an illegal move has been made. After all a "=" does indicate a draw offer

  14. #89
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinc View Post
    I'm new to this arena, but given the comment about a second illegal move, which is now terminal, how does one indicate on a score sheet that an illegal move has been made. After all a "=" does indicate a draw offer
    There's no specific symbol for illegal move. There is this rule:

    The scoresheet shall be used only for recording the moves, the times of the clocks, offers of a draw, matters relating to a claim and other relevant data.

    ...but a player could claim an illegal move having been completed is a "matter relating to a claim" or "other relevant data".

    If an opponent completes an illegal move a player could simply score the illegal move as made, and then cross it out and replace it with the legal move that replaced it after intervention from the arbiter.

  15. #90
    CC Candidate Master TomekP's Avatar
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    Notes about an illegal move can be made by the arbiter in his notebook. In blitz and rapid tournaments, in most cases the players do not have a scoreshee.

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