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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I'm surprised that Folau seems to have appealed on only one ground. As I said, I don't expect the judges to uphold an appeal based purely on religious discrimination. But it could be a while before we find out.
    I'd be interested in learning why you think RA are not in breach of Section 772 of the Fair Work Act. I am also surprised to learn that Folau seems to have appealed on only one ground. After all, to dismiss one employee (Israel) for allegedly breaching the code of conduct while not even investigating other alleged breaches of the code of conduct (by, respectively, the coach of the Wallabies, the coach of the Waratahs, and the CEO of RA), does seem to hint at discriminatory, reckless and capricious behaviour by RA.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    I'd be interested in learning why you think RA are not in breach of Section 772 of the Fair Work Act.
    I don't think they are. I believe that Folau was sacked for a breach of contract, and I expect that will be the decision. And I don't believe that the Fair Work Commission will rule that religious belief allows you to ignore a contract.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I don't think they are. I believe that Folau was sacked for a breach of contract, and I expect that will be the decision. And I don't believe that the Fair Work Commission will rule that religious belief allows you to ignore a contract.
    I am aware of your beliefs - but simply re-stating them is hardly evidence of why you think that the law of contract trumps Section 772. What is Section 772 doing in the Act if there are other statutes that trump it? Are you aware of anything in the Fair Work Act to indicate that there are circumstances where 772 shall not apply?

    You remain silent on the broader question of why only some employees should be subject to disciplinary action for alleged breaches of contract in circumstances where other employees of the same organisation are not even investigated for alleged breaches of contract. It does seem to me that, if this is the case, RA has clearly used its code of conduct to punish Israel Folau, while allowing Raelene Castle, Michael Cheika and Daryl Gibson to escape scrutiny and/or sanction for their breaches of the coaches and administrators codes of conduct in their management of the matter.
    Last edited by idledim; 07-06-2019 at 11:10 AM.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    I am aware of your beliefs - but simply re-stating them is hardly evidence of why you think that the law of contract trumps Section 772. What is Section 772 doing in the Act if there are other statutes that trump it? Are you aware of anything in the Fair Work Act to indicate that there are circumstances where 772 shall not apply?
    I've kept my comments brief so as to remain (largely) on topic. The broader issues have little to do directly with homosexuality. Briefly, I'm not convinced that Section 772 does apply here - in other words, I'm not convinced that Folau was sacked because of his religious views. Even if he was, allowing workers to void their contracts because of their religious beliefs creates potential problems for employers, and I don't think the FWC will want to make such a ruling (just as the Coalition has avoided this issue).

    But speculation is fairly pointless at this stage. Folau and RA may even settle before a hearing takes place.

    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    You remain silent on the broader question of why only some employees should be subject to disciplinary action for alleged breaches of contract in circumstances where other employees of the same organisation are not even investigated for alleged breaches of contract. It does seem to me that, if this is the case, RA has clearly used its code of conduct to punish Israel Folau, while allowing Raelene Castle, Michael Cheika and Daryl Gibson to escape scrutiny and/or sanction for their breaches of the coaches and administrators codes of conduct in their management of the matter.
    You may be right. But I don't believe this is currently an issue. And even if it becomes one, it wouldn't be a same-sex issue.

  5. #485
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    This is clearly not breach of contract but selective punishment of Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I don't think they are. I believe that Folau was sacked for a breach of contract, and I expect that will be the decision. And I don't believe that the Fair Work Commission will rule that religious belief allows you to ignore a contract.
    That is a BS hypocritical argument from the corrupt RA bureaucrats who are just slaves to the QANTAS homosexual activist. I've already pointed out that citing a verse from one's own Holy Book is not a breach of contract, in that it doesn't bring rugby into disrepute. If that does, then why not these other actions as explained in an earlier post, as per Darren Kane's article in the SMH:

    Context: How does Folau's conduct stack up when compared to the acts of some other professional sportsmen?

    So, what did Folau NOT do? Well, he didn’t lay the boot into his heavily pregnant wife’s stomach, while she lay on the floor, cowering in the foetal position. Nor did he pick up his ex-girlfriend and hurl her into a garage door at 2am following an epic bender. Folau didn’t kick the livin’ bejesus out of an unconscious man lying in the gutter, outside a nightclub.

    Folau hasn’t intentionally smashed an opponent’s jaw to smithereens, in a pre-meditated on-field incident. He didn’t gouge at an opponent player’s eyes, with all the fervour of a nine-year-old excising the last skerrick of ice cream from a four-litre tub. Not once has Folau reckoned upon sticking his index finger up opponents’ bums as being a red-hot, stealthy defensive strategy.

    Folau hasn’t been caught on an iPhone, pants around his ankles and frolicking in the company of an unsuspecting mutt. Indeed, neither has he orchestrated the running of an illegal dog-fighting ring; possessed implements used to give electric shocks to thoroughbreds; or done anything else to raise the ire of the RSPCA.

    Not even on one occasion has Folau been accused either of unlawfully distributing intimate videos without the consent of those filmed, or of mistreating women in any other way. Never has Folau been caught drink-driving; not even after having a 13-hour break from the schooners and thinking he’d be under 0.05. Folau hasn’t been charged with any crime.

    Folau hasn’t racially abused his opponents; hectored at them as "monkeys". He hasn’t sledged opponents as being "gypsy boys" who should contemplate retreating to their caravan homes.

    Folau hasn’t manhandled referees, assaulted teammates and bashed them to a pulp, or stolen money from his fellow players’ wallets while they weren’t looking. Israel hasn’t been caught on video, bragging about his adoration of the "Bondi marching powder"; never once has he tested positive to using prohibited substances either in or out of competition.

    Folau’s never placed bets on opposition teams to win, or lose. Folau hasn’t been caught red-handed, in the throes of orchestrated sports cheating, or scheming to rig the system. He hasn’t even chewed on "blood capsules" at the crucial point of a pivotal game, to stop time. Folau isn’t accused of standing over young and impressionable teammates; compelling them to dope, cheat, go to church or do anything else, with the threat of being expelled from the team if they refused.

    Now had Folau done any of those things, then maybe he’d be assured of World Cup selection. Because with maybe one or two exceptions, the professional athletes who actually did do these things weren’t banned from their sport for life.

    Instead, what Folau has done — the totality of his conduct — has been to publish material on his social media channels that’s been deemed as offensive and a high-level breach of Rugby Australia's code of conduct. Keep this simple: Folau published some excerpts from Bible passages and his summaries of them. That’s as grave as it gets.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    That is a BS hypocritical argument from the corrupt RA bureaucrats who are just slaves to the QANTAS homosexual activist.
    Your conspiracy theory is invalidated by the fact that Folau wasn't fired for his first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I've already pointed out that citing a verse from one's own Holy Book is not a breach of contract, in that it doesn't bring rugby into disrepute.
    But Folau wasn't fired for bringing rugby into disrepute. He was fired for breaching RA's code of conduct. The fact that other players (in other sports?) haven't been banned for worse behaviour doesn't disprove that.

  7. #487
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    I realise not exactly on topic but in Rugby League now the (mostly Islander) players have a (Christian) prayer meeting after each game and it is respected. I wonder what would be the response if the Muslim players did the same thing?
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  8. #488
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    Has “Homosexual” always been in the Bible?

    The word arsenokoitai shows up in two different verses in the bible, but it was not translated to mean homosexual until 1946. ...

    I had a German friend come back to town and I asked if he could help me with some passages in one of my German Bibles from the 1800s. So we went to Leviticus 18:22 and he’s translating it for me word for word. In the English where it says “Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,” the German version says “Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with women, for it is an abomination.” I said, “What?! Are you sure?” He said, “Yes!” Then we went to Leviticus 20:13— same thing, “Young boys.” So we went to 1 Corinthians to see how they translated arsenokoitai (original greek word) and instead of homosexuals it said, “Boy molesters will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    I then grabbed my facsimile copy of Martin Luther’s original German translation from 1534. My friend is reading through it for me and he says, “Ed, this says the same thing!” They use the word knabenschander. Knaben is boy, schander is molester. This word “boy molesters” carried through the next several centuries of German Bible translations. Knabenschander is also in 1 Timothy 1:10. So the interesting thing is, I asked if they ever changed the word arsenokoitai to homosexual in modern translations. So my friend found it and told me, “The first time homosexual appears in a German translation is 1983.” ...

    I also have a 1674 Swedish version and an 1830 Norwegian version of the Bible. I asked one of my friends, who was attending Fuller seminary and is fluent in both Swedish and Norwegian, to look at these verses for me. So we met at a coffee shop in Pasadena with my old Bibles. (She didn’t really know why I was asking.) Just like reading an old English Bible, it’s not easy to read. The letters are a little bit funky, the spelling is a little bit different. So she’s going through it carefully, and then her face comes up, “Do you know what this says?!” and I said, “No! That’s why you are here!” She said, “It says boy abusers, boy molesters.” ...
    meep meep

  9. #489
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Has “Homosexual” always been in the Bible?

    The word arsenokoitai shows up in two different verses in the bible, but it was not translated to mean homosexual until 1946. ...

    I had a German friend come back to town and I asked if he could help me with some passages in one of my German Bibles from the 1800s. So we went to Leviticus 18:22 and he’s translating it for me word for word. In the English where it says “Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,” the German version says “Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with women, for it is an abomination.” I said, “What?! Are you sure?” He said, “Yes!” Then we went to Leviticus 20:13— same thing, “Young boys.” So we went to 1 Corinthians to see how they translated arsenokoitai (original greek word) and instead of homosexuals it said, “Boy molesters will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    I then grabbed my facsimile copy of Martin Luther’s original German translation from 1534. My friend is reading through it for me and he says, “Ed, this says the same thing!” They use the word knabenschander. Knaben is boy, schander is molester. This word “boy molesters” carried through the next several centuries of German Bible translations. Knabenschander is also in 1 Timothy 1:10. So the interesting thing is, I asked if they ever changed the word arsenokoitai to homosexual in modern translations. So my friend found it and told me, “The first time homosexual appears in a German translation is 1983.” ...

    I also have a 1674 Swedish version and an 1830 Norwegian version of the Bible. I asked one of my friends, who was attending Fuller seminary and is fluent in both Swedish and Norwegian, to look at these verses for me. So we met at a coffee shop in Pasadena with my old Bibles. (She didn’t really know why I was asking.) Just like reading an old English Bible, it’s not easy to read. The letters are a little bit funky, the spelling is a little bit different. So she’s going through it carefully, and then her face comes up, “Do you know what this says?!” and I said, “No! That’s why you are here!” She said, “It says boy abusers, boy molesters.” ...
    Well it is certain damnation for many a Catholic priest!

    I hope young girls are protected in the Good Book but I doubt so. Also the Bible does not give a verdict on trannies changing over nor how they should be classified once changed over.
    Last edited by antichrist; 14-06-2019 at 06:55 PM.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  10. #490
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Political Posting Mumma reportedly goes down bigtime on defamation (the $100K is unconfirmed from the other side, but the pinned post is real):

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/...ative-activist

  11. #491
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Has “Homosexual” always been in the Bible?

    The word arsenokoitai shows up in two different verses in the bible, but it was not translated to mean homosexual until 1946.
    Oh this again? Goughfather tried this nonsense a while back. Dr Robert Ganon reponded to this one:

    Don’t Be Silly: The Term Arsenokoitai (“men lying with a male”) in 1 Cor 6:9 Is Not Limited to Pederasts
    ROBERT A. J. GAGNON·THURSDAY, 13 JUNE 2019

    The online interview/article, “Has ‘Homosexual’ always been in the Bible?” (Mar. 21, 2019), is one of the worst arguments regarding the meaning of the Greek word arsenokoitai (literally, “men lying with a male,” i.e., “men who have sex with a male”) in 1 Corinthians 6:9 that I have ever read. I wasn’t going to comment on it for the simple reason that it didn’t merit comment. Yet since by now so many FB friends have asked me about it, here goes.

    The author (or rather interviewee) is a certain Ed Oxford, identified in the article as “a gay Christian, a graduate of Talbot School of Theology.” I assume that he has a masters degree, probably not a specialization in biblical studies, but at any rate certainly no scholar with a Ph.D. (evident from the quality of his argument), let alone biblical scholar. He argues that since Luther in the sixteenth century used the German word Knabenschänder (violators of boys, boy-abusers/molesters), also in use in a fifteenth-century Greek-German lexicon, the Greek term from the mid-first century must also be so restricted in its meaning.

    That is not the way a biblical scholar thinks. Translations given at much later dates don’t determine the meaning of terms at much earlier dates. The author is right that the word does not mean “homosexuals” (RSV, 1st ed.; or, for that matter, “sodomites”; “Sodom” is not part of the stem of this noun). However, he is wrong in not recognizing that the actual meaning is, in one respect, more (not less) inclusive than “homosexuals.” It refers to all men who (as the active, penetrating partner) have sex with a “male” (Gk. arsēn) where “male” can refer to an adult or minor, irrespective (but not exclusive) of innate desires for males. In another respect it is less inclusive than “homosexuals”: It is an indictment of serial-unrepentant participants in an act, not a consignment to hell simply for the mere experience of unwanted homosexual desire.

    As for whether Paul intended to limit the word arsenokoitai to men who have sex with adolescent boys, consider the following:

    (1) Clear connections to the Levitical prohibitions of male-male intercourse. The compound Greek word arsenokoitai (arsen-o-koi-tai; plural of singular arsenokoitēs) is formed from the Greek words for “lying” (verb keimai; stem kei- adjusted to koi- before the “t” or letter tau) and “male” (arsēn). The word is a neologism created from terms used in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Levitical prohibitions of men “lying with a male” (18:22; 20:13). (Note that the word for “lying” in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Levitical prohibitions is the noun koitē, also meaning “bed,” which is formed from the verb keimai. The masculine –tēs suffix of the sg. noun arsenokoitēs denotes continuing agency or occupation, roughly equivalent to English -er attached to a noun; hence, “(male) liers with a male.”)

    That the connection to the absolute Levitical prohibitions against male-male intercourse is self-evident from the following points: (a) The rabbis used the corresponding Hebrew abstract expression mishkav zākűr, “lying of/with a male,” drawn from the Hebrew texts of Lev 18:22 and 20:13, to denote male-male intercourse in the broadest sense. (b) The term or its cognates does not appear in any non-Jewish, non-Christian text prior to the sixth century A.D. This way of talking about male homosexuality is a distinctly Jewish and Christian formulation. It was undoubtedly used as a way of distinguishing their absolute opposition to homosexual practice, rooted in the Torah of Moses, from more accepting views in the Greco-Roman milieu. (c) The appearance of arsenokoitai in 1 Tim 1:10 makes the link to the Mosaic law explicit, since the list of vices of which arsenokoitai is a part are said to be derived from “the law” (1:9). While it is true that the meaning of a compound word does not necessarily add up to the sum of its parts, in this instance it clearly does.

    (2) The implications of the context in early Judaism. That Jews of the period construed the Levitical prohibitions of male-male intercourse absolutely and against a backdrop of a male-female requirement is beyond dispute. For example, Josephus explained to Gentile readers that “the law [of Moses] recognizes only sexual intercourse that is according to nature, that which is with a woman. … But it abhors the intercourse of males with males” (Against Apion 2.199). There are no limitations placed on the prohibition as regards age, slave status, idolatrous context, or exchange of money. The only limitation is the sex of the participants. According to b. Sanh. 54a (viz., tractate Sanhedrin from the Babylonian Talmud), the male with whom a man lies in Lev 18:22 and 20:13 may be “an adult or minor,” meaning that the prohibition of male-male unions is not limited to pederasty. Indeed, there is no evidence in ancient Israel, Second Temple Judaism, or rabbinic Judaism that any limitation was placed on the prohibition of male-male intercourse.

    (3) The choice of word. Had a more limited meaning been intended—for example, pederasts—the terms paiderastai (“lover of boys”), paidomanai (“men mad for boys”), or paidophthoroi (“corrupters of boys”) could have been chosen.

    (4) The meaning of arsenokoitai and cognates in extant usage. The term arsenokoitēs and cognates after Paul (the term appears first in Paul) are applied solely to male-male intercourse but, consistent with the meaning of the partner term malakoi, not limited to pederasts or clients of cult prostitutes (see specifics in The Bible and Homosexual Practice, 317-23). For example, the 4th century church historian Eusebius quoted from a 2nd-3rd century Christian, Bardesanes (“From the Euphrates River [eastward] … a man who … is derided as an arsenokoitēs … will defend himself to the point of murder”), and then added that “among the Greeks, wise men who have male lovers are not condemned” (Preparation for the Gospel 6.10.25). Elsewhere Eusebius alluded to the prohibition of man-male intercourse in Leviticus as a prohibition not to arsenokoitein (lie with a male) and characterized it as a “pleasure contrary to nature,” “males mad for males,” and intercourse “of men with men” (Demonstration of the Gospel 1.6.33, 67; 4.10.6). Translations of arsenokoitai in 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10 in Latin, Syriac, and Coptic also define the term generally as “men lying with males.”
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  12. #492
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    Millionaire Israel Folau is appealing for people to help with his legal costs:
    Half a million dollars had been raised by Saturday morning to help sacked former Wallabies star Israel Folau “stand up for the word of God” in his legal fight against Rugby Australia. Folau had his $4m RA contract terminated in May after a post that he made on social media citing the Bible was deemed homophobic. It followed a similar incident last year. A Go Fund Me page established by him to raise funds for legal costs in his fight for reinstatement had raised about $501,000 of a $3m target by 11am on Saturday. More than 6,000 people have donated so far.

    Although anyone thinking of donating should be aware of the disclaimer: "In making this contribution I acknowledge that my contributions are made freely as a gift ... and that there will be no obligations on Israel Folau to do anything for me in recognition of the gift or to apply the funds in any particular way with respect to his legal action, and that I hold no expectation to receive anything in return for my contribution."

  13. #493
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Hypocrites whinge about Folau crowd-funding while Qantas and Big Rugby spend millions

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Millionaire Israel Folau is appealing for people to help with his legal costs:
    Half a million dollars had been raised by Saturday morning to help sacked former Wallabies star Israel Folau “stand up for the word of God” in his legal fight against Rugby Australia. Folau had his $4m RA contract terminated in May after a post that he made on social media citing the Bible was deemed homophobic. It followed a similar incident last year. A Go Fund Me page established by him to raise funds for legal costs in his fight for reinstatement had raised about $501,000 of a $3m target by 11am on Saturday. More than 6,000 people have donated so far.

    Although anyone thinking of donating should be aware of the disclaimer: "In making this contribution I acknowledge that my contributions are made freely as a gift ... and that there will be no obligations on Israel Folau to do anything for me in recognition of the gift or to apply the funds in any particular way with respect to his legal action, and that I hold no expectation to receive anything in return for my contribution."
    Oh, this nonsense now?

    Media and corporate elites furious at Folau’s support, bizarrely accuse him of taking money from dying kids, Mark Latham comes to his defence
    Caldron Pool, 22 June 2019

    What [[Former teammate and Rugby commentator Drew] Mitchell seemingly fails to understand is that Folau did not actually force anyone to donate to his fight. Nor did he take money away from any of the other causes mentioned. People chose to make a donation, and they’re more than free to do so.

    If multi-millionaires like [rabid atheopath] Peter FitzSimons were concerned about the children pictured, then they should, out of their own pockets, donate as much as they like to the causes that concern them.

    One Nation MP Mark Latham came to the defence of Folau, calling him an inspiration to others in the communities he came from, communities the multi-millionaires and media elites attacking him would know nothing about.

    “The combined financial might of Rugby Australia and its corporate sponsors has billions in the bank,” Latham tweeted. “They have sacked a young man for his religious beliefs that had nothing to do with footy. Now with legal cases probably headed to the High Court, they attack his crowd funding?”

    [Update] More than 7,000 people have donated to Folau’s legal action fund, which currently sits at close to $570,000.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 23-06-2019 at 12:47 PM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Oh, this nonsense now? ...
    Even though you quoted my post, you don't seem to be actually replying to it. As far as I'm concerned, if poor people think that giving their money to a millionaire is a good way to spend it, that's their problem.

  15. #495
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Hypocrites whinge about Folau crowd-funding while Qantas and Big Rugby spend millions
    Speaking of hypocrites:

    “Big Boys & Their Balls!” The Time Israel Folau Starred On The Cover Of A Gay Mag!

    ...Ironically, way back in 2014, Folau posed on the cover of the prominent gay magazine Star Observer denouncing homophobia in sport.

    The rugby star appeared alongside fellow Wallaby, Adam Ashley-Cooper, alongside the cover line, “Big Boys And Their Balls.”

    In the cover and interview, Folau and Ashley-Cooper were promoting a gay rugby event in Australia called the Bingham Cup.

    A spokesperson for the tournament at the time said: “Israel is a strong advocate for ending all forms of discrimination in sport.” ...
    meep meep

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