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  1. #436
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    More on the rank hypocrisy of Rugby Australia

    Dear Izzy, If Only You Had Behaved Like An Elite Athlete
    Akos Balogh

    What were you thinking, Izzy?

    So, in case you still don’t get it, let me get specific about what acceptable bad behaviour looks like for elite athletes. SMH sports writer Darren Kane has put together a nice list, which I’ll share with you now.

    If your wife had been heavily pregnant, and you layed your boot into her stomach while she lay on the floor cowering in the foetal position, you would not be banned.

    If you had picked up your ex-girlfriend and hurled her into a garage door at 2am following an epic bender, you’d still be on track for your job. If you had only kicked the livin’ daylights out of an unconscious man lying in the gutter, outside a nightclub, you could have avoided this heartache you’re now in.

    But no, Izzy. You had to go all the way and do something so much worse than these acceptable misbehaviours: you shared the Bible’s message on your own social media page. Now that is unacceptable.

    (I mean, it’s not like Rugby Australia could have come out and said ‘While Israel Folau’s views are not those of Rugby Australia or its affiliates, he has not broken any law and is entitled to his own views as an employee in a free country.’)

    Look, had you merely smashed an opponent’s jaw to smithereens in a pre-meditated on-field incident, or gouged at an opponent player’s eyes with all the fervour of a nine-year-old excising the last skerrick of ice cream from a four-litre tub, you’d be back on the field sooner than you could say ‘Qantas airlines’.

    If all you had done was manhandled referees, assaulted teammates and bashed them to a pulp, or stolen money from your fellow players’ wallets while they weren’t looking, you would eventually be right to play.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  2. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Folau was sacked because he violated his code of conduct. And he was sacked by Rugby Australia - Qantas had no involvement.
    Folau claims that he didn't and is taking his case for wrongful dismissal to the courts. If it is determined that the code of conduct has been breached and that the breach warrants dismissal, then Castle and Cheika should also be disciplined for their code of conduct breaches. RA's failure to take action against them leaves it open to the charge that it is applying one set of standards to players and another to coaches and administrators.

    Whatever happens in the matter of Folau v. RA, the advice from clinical psychologists is that those who say they are acting in the interests of anxious, vulnerable young homosexuals are actually doing them more harm than they realise - and certainly more harm than Folau's instagram post about the Christian teaching that repentance is for everyone, including homosexuals.

  3. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    Folau claims that he didn't and is taking his case for wrongful dismissal to the courts. If it is determined that the code of conduct has been breached and that the breach warrants dismissal, then Castle and Cheika should also be disciplined for their code of conduct breaches. RA's failure to take action against them leaves it open to the charge that it is applying one set of standards to players and another to coaches and administrators.
    I thought Folau was arguing that it was a religious freedom case?

    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    Whatever happens in the matter of Folau v. RA, the advice from clinical psychologists is that those who say they are acting in the interests of anxious, vulnerable young homosexuals are actually doing them more harm than they realise - and certainly more harm than Folau's instagram post about the Christian teaching that repentance is for everyone, including homosexuals.
    Please quote this advice. I don't see how Folau saying that young people are destined for hell because of the way they were born is going to help them.

  4. #439
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    Whatever happens in the matter of Folau v. RA, the advice from clinical psychologists is that those who say they are acting in the interests of anxious, vulnerable young homosexuals are actually doing them more harm than they realise - and certainly more harm than Folau's instagram post about the Christian teaching that repentance is for everyone, including homosexuals.
    Is this clinical psychologists we should be taking seriously on this, or is it Jordan Petersen or others like him (if there are any)?

    I'm actually leaning to the view that Folau shouldn't be banned - but on a condition. That condition is that if someone wants to go to the rugby with a banner that declares Folau to be a really silly homophobe and heckle him in a way that does not interfere with the play, they will not be evicted from the stadium.

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I thought Folau was arguing that it was a religious freedom case?
    I have not seen Folau's defence. If you have, please post it. At the moment it's an allegation by RA that Folau was sacked because he breached his contract. By responding as they did, Castle and Cheika seem to be in clear breach of their code of conduct. The question remains: why should RA discipline players who are alleged to be in breach of the code, but not discipline coaches and administrators?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Please quote this advice.
    You might enjoy reading The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure

    by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathon Haidt.

    Here's a short taster of where I'm coming from on this: The Savage Empathy of Safe Spaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I don't see how Folau saying that young people are destined for hell because of the way they were born is going to help them.
    How very binary - and how very Calvinist!

  6. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    I have not seen Folau's defence. If you have, please post it. ...
    I was basing my comments on what you've said previously - I haven't seen his defence.

    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    You might enjoy reading The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure ​ by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathon Haidt. Here's a short taster of where I'm coming from on this: The Savage Empathy of Safe Spaces
    Are they clinical psychologists? And they don't seem to be dealing specifically with conflicted teenagers?

    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    How very binary - and how very Calvinist!
    Do you believe that you choose who you are attracted to?

  7. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Is this clinical psychologists we should be taking seriously on this, or is it Jordan Petersen or others like him (if there are any)?

    I'm actually leaning to the view that Folau shouldn't be banned - but on a condition. That condition is that if someone wants to go to the rugby with a banner that declares Folau to be a really silly homophobe and heckle him in a way that does not interfere with the play, they will not be evicted from the stadium.
    Dr. Peterson (note spelling) is indeed a clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. I'm not a big fan of his bestselling book 12 Rules, but would highly recommend Maps of Meaning to anyone interested in the psychology of religion. His views on avoidance, trigger warnings, safe spaces and microagressions are apparently commonplace among clinical psychologists - though less so elsewhere.

    Of course, it should hardly matter - though it seems to matter to you - who the spokesperson is. Either anxious young homosexuals are going to feel less anxious as a result of the high profile given by RA to an instagram post by a rugby player, or they are not - and since it is a common view among clinical psychologists that they will not feel less anxious, I think we would have done better by letting that post go through to the keeper - where it would most likely have just disappeared down the long furrow of history.

    As for your suggested conditions: I agree. However if, as seems likely, Folau isn't playing, the 'silly homophobe' banner wavers might well be the only ones there - going by the recent home ground attendances for the Waratahs.

  8. #443
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    "`Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. leviticus 19
    are the wallabies outfits poly/cotton? i dont see izzy and the church ever making an issue of this.
    if some parts of the bibles tenets are redundant and others not then church leaders could attempt to redact and modernise it and not give people like poor izzy this dilemma.

  9. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by guruduff View Post
    "`Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. leviticus 19
    are the wallabies outfits poly/cotton? i dont see izzy and the church ever making an issue of this.
    if some parts of the bibles tenets are redundant and others not then church leaders could attempt to redact and modernise it and not give people like poor izzy this dilemma.
    Indeed - even people who are not church leaders (like myself) could attempt this.
    So, in the spirit of ecumenism and compromise, and with apologies to the Apostle Paul:

    All unrepentant fornicators are going to hell (including homosexuals, because they're not special) - and especially those who slaughter polyesters.

  10. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by guruduff View Post
    "`Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. leviticus 19
    are the wallabies outfits poly/cotton? i dont see izzy and the church ever making an issue of this.
    if some parts of the bibles tenets are redundant and others not then church leaders could attempt to redact and modernise it and not give people like poor izzy this dilemma.
    Do try to learn some basics, such as the difference between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  11. #446
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    Tiffany Jones, who is one of the authors of Writing Themselves In 3—a resource of The Safe Schools Coalition:

    [The] Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD 2011) warned staff against perpetuating ‘suicide contagion’ among GLBTIQ youth… Harwood and Rasmussen (2004) argued that the focus on GLBTIQ youth discrimination and suicide encouraged students to express GLBTIQ identity using a conflated woundedness through risky behaviours, neediness or creating appropriate ‘adolescence horror stories…”

    Dr. David van Gend, Medical Practitioner:

    Nobody denies that same-sex attracted people suffer disproportionately from depression and emotional distress, but never once, in my experience as a GP, has a patient’s depression or distress been due to the “bigoted opinions” of straight society. It has always been due to something private and personal: perhaps the trauma of domestic violence from a lesbian partner, or self-disgust at their own compulsive sexual behaviour, or unresolved anger at childhood sexual abuse, or the spiritual grief of holding values that conflict with their unwanted sexual impulses – not to mention the trauma of a diagnosis of HIV or other STD so heavily focused on the male homosexual population. This is what drives their depression and distress, in my experience, not whether or not there are laws out there for gay marriage. There are as many causes of inner distress as there are individuals. It infantilises same-sex attracted individuals if we treat them as victims who cannot cope.


    Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, psychiatrist, Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth :

    Some of this is in fact, as activists claim, because all-too-often he experiences from others cold lack of sympathy or even open hostility…But it is not true, as activists claim, that these are the only or even the major stresses. Much distress is caused simply by his way of life – for example, the medical consequences, AIDS being just once of many (if also the worst). He also lives with the guilt and shame that he feels over his compulsive, promiscuous behaviour; and too, over the knowledge that he cannot relate effectively to the opposite sex and is less likely to have a family.

    Dr Rob Clover, homosexual academic, University of Western Australia:

    “... the actual rate of GLBTIQ youth suicide and self-harm is not fully known.”

    Mark Powell, associate pastor of the Cornerstone Presbyterian Church in Strathfield, NSW:

    ... wouldn’t it be tragic—as well as more than a little ironic—if the comments made by media apparatchiks were making the incidence of youth suicide amongst LGBTIQ people even worse? Maybe it’s time we treated LGBTIQ youth with more dignity and respect by—as van Gend insightfully argues—not ‘infantilising’ them as people. It’s time we re-affirmed as a culture that all young lives matter, whether they’re straight, religious, or gay.
    Last edited by idledim; 23-05-2019 at 03:57 PM.

  12. #447
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    Of course, it should hardly matter - though it seems to matter to you - who the spokesperson is. Either anxious young homosexuals are going to feel less anxious as a result of the high profile given by RA to an instagram post by a rugby player, or they are not - and since it is a common view among clinical psychologists that they will not feel less anxious, I think we would have done better by letting that post go through to the keeper - where it would most likely have just disappeared down the long furrow of history.
    Well "clinical psychologists say" without any evidence of why they say it is no more than an argument from authority, so the question is whether that authority is even worth investigating. If they have an obvious agenda like Peterson or, a hundred times worse, van Gend, then I'm extremely sceptical in the absence of very strong evidence of them having a compelling argument. If it's coming from someone more or less neutral or LGBTIQ-friendly (and hasn't been taken out of context) then that's more worth having a look at it.

    As for your suggested conditions: I agree. However if, as seems likely, Folau isn't playing, the 'silly homophobe' banner wavers might well be the only ones there - going by the recent home ground attendances for the Waratahs.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 23-05-2019 at 06:08 PM. Reason: noted spelling

  13. #448
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idledim View Post
    Tiffany Jones, who is one of the authors of Writing Themselves In 3—a resource of The Safe Schools Coalition:

    [The] Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD 2011) warned staff against perpetuating ‘suicide contagion’ among GLBTIQ youth… Harwood and Rasmussen (2004) argued that the focus on GLBTIQ youth discrimination and suicide encouraged students to express GLBTIQ identity using a conflated woundedness through risky behaviours, neediness or creating appropriate ‘adolescence horror stories…”
    I downloaded the paper but it was so full of Foucaultian jargon that it wasn't easy to discern the author's viewpoint on these issues in the time it was worth. I also found a later edition of GLAAD and it talks about things like avoiding saying that someone took their own life because of homophobia (in absence of the facts), telling students that there is a LGBTIQ suicide epidemic (because sexuality of suicide victims isn't recorded) and so on. It doesn't warn against suggesting that silly hellfire garbage contributes to the legitimisation of bigotry or to minority stress, or ought to be strongly discouraged simply on the grounds of its stupidity.

    Not interested in van Gend or Satinover. Known suspects providing no reliable evidence in the quotes given. The scientific status of psychology is often a bit of a grey zone so it's easy for psychologists with a bias to get away with nonsense - to a point.

    Dr Rob Clover, homosexual academic, University of Western Australia:

    “... the actual rate of GLBTIQ youth suicide and self-harm is not fully known.”
    True of course but an amazing revelation for the purposes of this debate - what precisely in sociology is fully known?

    Mark Powell, associate pastor of the Cornerstone Presbyterian Church in Strathfield, NSW:
    Another biased source who is just trolling without evidence in the quote given.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 23-05-2019 at 06:21 PM.

  14. #449
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    Since I can't really ask Folau, I'll have to ask idledim and Capablanca-Fan: If people aren't born with same-sex attraction (you both poured scorn on that suggestion when I made it), how do they develop it?

  15. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Since I can't really ask Folau, I'll have to ask idledim and Capablanca-Fan: If people aren't born with same-sex attraction (you both poured scorn on that suggestion when I made it), how do they develop it?
    Please show me where I poured scorn on that suggestion. I can't recall doing so. I do recall that you asked me to tell you whether I believed that I chose who I was attracted to. As I had no wish to engage in a philosophical discussion about free will and determinism in a thread discussing same-sex issues, I did not answer your question. It is likely that I would not have replied to such a question even if it was asked in the appropriate thread since, in the first place, by definition, I cannot know; and, in the second place, your asking reflects a level of impertinent disrespect for my privacy.
    Last edited by idledim; 24-05-2019 at 11:40 AM.

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