Tornelo Pairing Problems (sf Tornelo Rating System)

[Patrick Byrom]

The difference is that Tornelo does its "ratings" instantly whereas other systems involve waiting weeks or months for a new rating. That the system is deflationary and that the ratings are from time to time the subject of completely ad hoc fudging to correct this doesn't seem to be bothering them. The lack of parity in the ACF system might not help but I'm not sure it would make any difference given this desire for instant gratification.

But won't Swiss Perfect or Vega give players an instant rating (change)?

If the MCC wants something a bit more sophisticated (but still 'instant') they could upload their Swiss Perfect crosstables to my Qld Junior Rating website, which will also provide reasonable ratings for unrated players. The QJRL is obviously not as reliable as ACF or FIDE ratings, but it's fairly consistent with ACF ratings, and I can only recall one (minor) adjustment being required in the last decade.

[Kevin Bonham]

But won't Swiss Perfect or Vega give players an instant rating (change)?

That might be useful for FIDE ratings (not sure if SP will configure modern k-factor rules correctly) but these events are not FIDE rated. For ACF ratings there can only ever be an estimate.

[MichaelBaron]

https://tornelo.com/chess/orgs/melbo...rd--6/pairings
Last round pairings were ...a bit strange...despite the claims by the tornelo developers that they are using an approved pairing system now...

[Kevin Bonham]

https://tornelo.com/chess/orgs/melbo...rd--6/pairings
Last round pairings were ...a bit strange...despite the claims by the tornelo developers that they are using an approved pairing system now...

The pairings look like nonsense as there are numerous unnecessary downfloats, including two from the 5 scoregroup.

It's possible that an approved pairing program is installed but that it is incorrectly configured - which basically means they [edit: the organisers] are not using an approved pairing system.

[MichaelBaron]

The pairings look like nonsense as there are numerous unnecessary downfloats, including two from the 5 scoregroup.

It's possible that an approved pairing program is installed but that it is incorrectly configured - which basically means they are not using an approved pairing system.

Sigh. This is exactly how I felt when I saw the draw.

[ChessGuru]

The pairings look like nonsense as there are numerous unnecessary downfloats, including two from the 5 scoregroup.

It's possible that an approved pairing program is installed but that it is incorrectly configured - which basically means they are not using an approved pairing system.

I checked and the event was NOT paired using the JaVaFo engine.

There is a default that can be updated to help users remember to pick the "right" engine for pairing.

If you use JaVaFo (and input the correct data) then you'll get the same output as any other pairing program using JaVaFo (eg. SwissManager, Vega etc). This was verified by IA Peter Tsai during the MCC Hjorth weekender last year (and a bunch of IA's in about 120 countries around the world who have been using Tornelo for Online Supervised events over the last 9 months).

[Kevin Bonham]

Thanks. Sounds like MCC need to make sure the program is set up correctly to use the JaVaFo pairings module and avoid silly pairings.

[ER]

(and a bunch of IA's in about 120 countries around the world who have been using Tornelo for Online Supervised events over the last 9 months).

Looks like Tornelo is taking Europe by storm. I have spoken recently to ECU officials and a number of arbiters and players and they have only nice words to say! Keep up the good work!
Not sure about your progress in other continents apart from Australia in discussions held here!

[Patrick Byrom]

... If you use JaVaFo (and input the correct data) then you'll get the same output as any other pairing program using JaVaFo (eg. SwissManager, Vega etc). This was verified by IA Peter Tsai during the MCC Hjorth weekender last year (and a bunch of IA's in about 120 countries around the world who have been using Tornelo for Online Supervised events over the last 9 months).

As the pairings from the JaVaFo pairing engine are approved by FIDE, and Tornelo generates the same output, are there any plans to have Tornelo approved by FIDE?

[Patrick Byrom]

Looks like Tornelo is taking Europe by storm. I have spoken recently to ECU officials and a number of arbiters and players and they have only nice words to say! Keep up the good work! Not sure about your progress in other continents apart from Australia in discussions held here!

It does seem to be very good for running online events. I'm not sure what will happen to those once vaccinations become widespread, however.

[Bill Gletsos]

As the pairings from the JaVaFo pairing engine are approved by FIDE, and Tornelo generates the same output, are there any plans to have Tornelo approved by FIDE?

There is a lot more to being endorsed than just using JaVaFo.
As recently as December 2019, the FIDE Systems of Pairings and Programs Commission decided not to endorse it according to their meeting minutes.

[Patrick Byrom]

There is a lot more to being endorsed than just using JaVaFo. As recently as December 2019, the FIDE Systems of Pairings and Programs Commission decided not to endorse it according to their meeting minutes.

That's true, but it's a major step towards approval. And FIDE has already used Tornelo to run one of its events - the Online Olympiad for People with Disabilities.

[ChessGuru]

That's true, but it's a major step towards approval. And FIDE has already used Tornelo to run one of its events - the Online Olympiad for People with Disabilities.

Thanks for the kind words and support from everyone... we are thrilled with the uptake in Europe of course! ER - here's a quick update for you:

The Olympiad DIS, yes.... and the FIDE World Youth Championshisp
And the FISU and FIDE World Universities Championships

And we've hosted the African Online Individual Championships and African Online Schools... and a number of Championship events in Asia. Hastings was even run on Tornelo, although I didn't realise that was happening until after the event!
Apparently there are seminars being run in Spanish, thanks to friends of ours in Mexico and Costa Rica, about how to run Supervised Online or Hybrid events on Tornelo.


In total around 1600 organisations (105 countries at last count) are now using Tornelo to run arbiter-led, scheduled events. More than 65,000 players have created accounts on Tornelo in the past 9 months. I don't even know how many events take place each week any more....

We are aware of the exact steps required to get FIDE endorsement as a pairing program, and exactly where we are lacking. Bill is correct, it's not just about delivering JaVaFo pairings (that's the easy part). It's not much work, but it never quite makes it to the top of the list of priorities because the requirements don't really impact functionality much... we're working instead on supporting Team Entries and Pairings, improving Fair Play features for arbiters and integrating external ratings for seeding players, and THEN we'll seek FIDE endorsement. (~6 months maybe?)

Thanks Bill for pointing out December 2019 - the head of the SPP Commission contacted me 48 hrs before their meeting and asked if Tornelo could be reviewed for approval (months earlier I'd asked for information about the process), we said no because the time-frame was just too short to get ready for such a review - we were half way through a major change! Thankfully it seems some people can look the other way when it comes to endorsement and Tornelo has been welcomed by many organisers worldwide ...

I'm expecting Hybrid events to be the way of the future for most chess tournaments... at the moment Tornelo is the only platform to comply with all the FIDE regulations for running FIDE rated Hybrid events, but I have no doubt many people will be able to look the other way and the Mega-portals will be hosting some of these events as well. I guess it's another 2 years before the world can return to normal travel patterns... and even when it does, the convenience of Hybrid events (once there is Trust in online play) will be a major draw-card.

[MichaelBaron]

One area where all of the Online Platforms (Chess.com Tornelo, LiChess etc.) Appear to be lacking is User Support Documentation...or easy access to such documentation. Help forums are great but there ya re not quite the same. For instance, when comparing with the E-Learning Support Protocols that I am involved in development of the difference between the Online Platforms and the institutionalized E-Learning processes are quite obvious. But then again, there may be some process management manuals that I am not aware of that are provided to arbiters, organizers etc. that are not available to the general public. Furthermore, I do not think QA processes for Chess Servers are same as for Professional Service Organizations/Universities.

[ER]

Hi Michael, in regards to your inquiry above I found quite useful a series of webinars organised by David Cordover.
In the following which I found very informative and useful (for my level of expertise that is)
you will find a quick overview and instruction in the main features of Tornelo for Players, Arbiters and Organisers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Kv6_xzWTcA
There's also quite a plethora of relevant information in Tornelo related searches.