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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster
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    If someone cares to examine the pairings done by Tornelo: do take a look at the crosstable for the yesterdays's allegro: I was on 4/4 and in round 5 was paired Against Highes (who was the lowest rated player inthe group of players on 3/4) Furthermore, there was someone on 3.5/4!
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  2. #2
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
    If someone cares to examine the pairings done by Tornelo: do take a look at the crosstable for the yesterdays's allegro: I was on 4/4 and in round 5 was paired Against Highes (who was the lowest rated player inthe group of players on 3/4) Furthermore, there was someone on 3.5/4!
    At a quick look I cannot see any reason why it did not pair you with Krunic on the results as given. Perhaps a result was entered incorrectly and later fixed because Tornelo with JaVaFo on board just shouldn't make errors like that.

    https://au.tornelo.com/tournaments/mcc-allegro--2 is the URL for the event if anyone else wants a go.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 24-03-2013 at 01:10 PM.

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    At a quick look I cannot see any reason why it did not pair you with Krunic on the results as given. Perhaps a result was entered incorrectly and later fixed because Tornelo with JaVaFo on board just shouldn't make errors like that.

    https://au.tornelo.com/tournaments/mcc-allegro--2 is the URL for the event if anyone else wants a go.
    To my knowledge, no results had to be changed afterwards.
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  4. #4
    CC FIDE Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
    To my knowledge, no results had to be changed afterwards.
    Hi Michael,

    If you look at Laurent's pairings a number of them seem strange.
    I would suggest that though he had a half point bye in round one, for pairing purposes he seems to have been given a point.

    I'll ask David about it next week.

    Cheers,
    Jammo
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    and fighting against those humourless bureaucrats who are forever lost in the minutiae.

  5. #5
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammo
    Hi Michael,

    If you look at Laurent's pairings a number of them seem strange.
    I would suggest that though he had a half point bye in round one, for pairing purposes he seems to have been given a point.

    I'll ask David about it next week.

    Cheers,
    Jammo
    There is more to it than just Laurent's pairings.
    All the players with round 1 half point byes seem to be being treated as full point byes for pairing purposes going forward.

    As such Hughes is treated as though he has 3.5 points and is paired with Michael as he is a colour match, whilst Krunic isnt a colour match.
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  6. #6
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Perhaps a result was entered incorrectly and later fixed because Tornelo with JaVaFo on board just shouldn't make errors like that.
    It seems Tornelo does in fact make errors like this even though it is using JaVaFo.

    If you pass JaVaFo incorrect information it will generate incorrect pairings.

    This example clearly shows why FIDE was correct in choosing not to endorse programs just because they use JaVaFo.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  7. #7
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    It seems Tornelo does in fact make errors like this even though it is using JaVaFo.

    If you pass JaVaFo incorrect information it will generate incorrect pairings.

    This example clearly shows why FIDE was correct in choosing not to endorse programs just because they use JaVaFo.
    Exactly. The point was made at the SPPC meetings that the wraparound into which JaVaFo has inserted can sometimes influence pairings. Has someone tested that this problem does not occur in Vega?

  8. #8
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Exactly. The point was made at the SPPC meetings that the wraparound into which JaVaFo has inserted can sometimes influence pairings. Has someone tested that this problem does not occur in Vega?
    I have not seen half point byes treated as one point byes by Vega.
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  9. #9
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    Thanks guys for discovering this bug ...

    All BYES should be marked as results by Forfiet....a result by Forfiet is differently coded in a TRF than a result by win or loss (+/- as opposed to 1/0)... strangely there is no differentiation between a draw by result or a draw by forfeit (both are =).

    Obviously JaVaFo isn't making an error, it is the data that is passed from the User View to JaVaFo.

    In most situations the output functions correctly for 1/2 point BYES...but I have managed to generate an occasional bug when a pairing is being manually edited (eg. removing a player from a pairing and leaving a BYE) and then changing a result (the default result for a BYE is usually a win) to a draw.

    Firstly, Tornelo isn't automatically marking the game against a BYE (due to removed opponent) as a forfeit and secondly it seems that when I change the result around a few times it can sometimes not update the result for the pairings data... leaving the pairing for future rounds being done with incorrect data.

    Our next update will include a fix to make this feature more resilient to multiple changes to results and pairings when adding or removing players after a pairing has been published. In particular when giving players half-point byes.

    If a tournament organiser notices this as it's happening you should be able to fix it by going back to the player/bye in question and marking that half-point result as a 1/2 point by Forfiet (the symbol = will appear in place of the word Draw in the pairings view). This will then pair future rounds correctly.

  10. #10
    CC International Master Paul Cavezza's Avatar
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    Hi Dave & all,

    To give players a first round bye I believe I clicked on their name and selected "skip" and checked the box for the first round.

    David has given me a work-around for this Saturday and then he'll tweak the software after Easter.

    I've also sent David a file with most of the 200 allegros so hopefully in a couple of weeks time you'll be able to see your record against everyone in the MCC in allegro chess for the last few years!

  11. #11
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChessGuru
    Thanks guys for discovering this bug ...

    All BYES should be marked as results by Forfiet....a result by Forfiet is differently coded in a TRF than a result by win or loss (+/- as opposed to 1/0)... strangely there is no differentiation between a draw by result or a draw by forfeit (both are =).
    Actually it should not matter how the result is marked or displayed by the user..
    If the player has the bye then the Tornelo generated TDF file should set the result as +/-/= even if the user set the result as 1/0/=
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  12. #12
    CC FIDE Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Actually it should not matter how the result is marked or displayed by the user..
    If the player has the bye then the Tornelo generated TDF file should set the result as +/-/= even if the user set the result as 1/0/=
    That's quite true. The user never has a need to mark a BYE as 1 instead of +.

  13. #13
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    From FIDE Swiss Pairings Programs Committee minutes:

    5. Evaluation of programs candidate to endorsement

    [..]

    5.2 Tornelo.com
    The software Tornelo.com (author: David Cordover, from Australia) was unanimously rejected because of its unreliable and poor handling.

  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Posts on the MCC Allegro thread have shown that Tornelo is now pairing players who have had half-point byes as if the half-point byes were wins or losses.

  15. #15
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    My sources informed me today that the problem of half-point byes has been promised to be resolved...by tomorrow
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