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  1. #31
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    When will Tornelo realise that their ratings product is rubbish?
    When my tornelo rating is over 3000
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Peirce
    When my tornelo rating is over 3000
    Perhaps we need a poll: "What is more rubbishy"
    1.ACF Website
    2.ACF Selection By-laws
    3.Soft Zonal Titles
    4.Tornelo Ratings
    5.Forum Statistics and Oddities
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
    and fighting against those humourless bureaucrats who are forever lost in the minutiae.

  3. #33
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammo
    Perhaps we need a poll: "What is more rubbishy"
    1.ACF Website
    2.ACF Selection By-laws
    3.Soft Zonal Titles
    4.Tornelo Ratings
    5.Forum Statistics and Oddities
    You may not find 5.) of any interest to you, but at least unlike 4.) it is generally accurate.

    Anyway, any user can start a poll, but there is an unwritten tradition here that when a user starts a poll with intent to slag, an option is added that slags them.

    So I would add:

    6. jammo's inane and bored off-topic trolling

    ...and make it a multiple choice poll so people could vote for 4. and 6.

    Watch what you wish for.

  4. #34
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    I have a plan to reveal Tornelo's ineptitude.
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
    Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small mind discuss people.-Anonymous
    He who dares, wins.-SAS motto

  5. #35
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Had a look at this to see how it is getting along. Not well at all!

    Basically there's been negligible uptake for strong adult tournaments with the exception of:

    * MCC Allegros and other such local Vic events.
    * Those Victorian weekenders (like Begonia and Best in the West) that happen to have used Tornelo to display results.

    As a result virtually all the top active listed players are Victorian, the exceptions being players from interstate who chanced to play in a Victorian tournament. It was quite amusing though to find I still had a rating as a result of someone entering the Tasmanian Lightning 2013.

    Something curious happened with the recent Best in the West. Prior to the tournament being entered many (but not all) of the entrants had their rating reset to their ACF rating - this included by my count 48 of the 74 players who had had games rated or had a pre-existing rating on the CK system.

    Not only is lifting ratings from another system where they are deliberately non-transparently calculated not transparent (CG claimed the system was "Fully transparent" in post 1), but it's obvious this was done in a way that would shovel points back into the CK system. Of the players whose ratings were reset to their ACF ratings all bar 1 had ACF ratings higher than their CK ratings. Of the players whose ratings weren't reset all bar two were the other way round.

    When we look at the comparison between CK ratings and ACF ratings for these 74 players whose ratings were reset prior to BITW the pattern is quite interesting:

    Chesskids vs ACF.png

    (Apologies to anyone who can't see the graph).

    The black line is parity, it is not a line of best fit!

    What the graph shows is that prior to the "rating adjustment" (translation: swiping of another system's ratings) there were basically three groups among the BITW entrants:

    * Players rated above 1700 by ChessKids: 16 out of 22 of these had higher ACF ratings and on average a member of this group had an ACF rating 38 points higher.

    * Players rated above 1200 by either system, but not above 1700 by ChessKids: 28/32 of these had higher ACF ratings and on average a member of this group had an ACF rating 163 points higher.

    * Players not rated above 1200 by either system: 15/20 of these had higher Chesskids ratings and on average a member of this group had a Chesskids rating 167 points higher.

    So basically despite the system having higher ratings at the low end (presumably because of the use of CK junior tournaments with preset rating averages as data) it was not performing in the middle and this is because it uses ELO with low k-factors which is a bad system for dealing with juniors. (Most of those in the middle whose ratings are way out of whack are juniors). Furthermore the damage was flowing on to the top end since a lot of the 1700+s in this sample are actually adults.

    Whether selectively borrowing ratings from another system will fix the problem doesn't really matter: as a self-contained rating system Tornelo has taken less than two years to fail so convincingly that the white flag has been run up by not merely fiddling the ratings, but fiddling them by adopting the opposition's!

    Tornelo might be useful for clubs like MCC that want to rate lots of allegros and don't want to pay ACF ratings fees and don't care if the ratings they get are slightly crap. And it is fine for interschool chess where whatever you use will be made out of rubber anyway. But apart from that, as a rating system "for all clubs [..] and events in Australia" it is failing. As expected.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 11-09-2014 at 09:37 PM.

  6. #36
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    And the way the pairings are done...clearly there is some problem...as evident from some of the allegros
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  7. #37
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    It was quite amusing though to find I still had a rating as a result of someone entering the Tasmanian Lightning 2013.

    [requote of rest trimmed - mod]
    I entered it before 'they' started charging fees to have tournaments rated
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 12-09-2014 at 10:39 AM.
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
    Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small mind discuss people.-Anonymous
    He who dares, wins.-SAS motto

  8. #38
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    is there some free rating software available?
    Interested in Chess Lessons?
    Email webbaron!@gmail.com for more Info!

  9. #39
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    is there some free rating software available?
    http://www.bjcox.com/?page_id=2
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #40
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    MOZ over in the toolbox was boasting that junior Kayson Wang had gained 42 Tornelo points from an event that he won with a brilliant result. What MOZ didn't mention is that even with that gain and a 69-point gain in an MCC allegro - neither of these events that will be ACF classic rated - Wang's Tornelo "rating" was still 87 points below his ACF main list rating.

    This caused me to check out how Tornelo was getting on a few years on from its most recent flushing of its own ratings. For the top 20 Victorian players on the Tornelo list 16 have higher ACF ratings with an average difference across the whole 20 of 118 points.

    That is even though by picking the top 20 off the Tornelo list and not imposing the same limit on the ACF ratings considered, one would expect that if there was parity they would have slightly higher Tornelo than ACF ratings!

    Time to throw the data out and start again, again?

  11. #41
    CC FIDE Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    MOZ over in the toolbox was boasting that junior Kayson Wang had gained 42 Tornelo points from an event that he won with a brilliant result. What MOZ didn't mention is that even with that gain and a 69-point gain in an MCC allegro - neither of these events that will be ACF classic rated - Wang's Tornelo "rating" was still 87 points below his ACF main list rating.

    This caused me to check out how Tornelo was getting on a few years on from its most recent flushing of its own ratings. For the top 20 Victorian players on the Tornelo list 16 have higher ACF ratings with an average difference across the whole 20 of 118 points.

    That is even though by picking the top 20 off the Tornelo list and not imposing the same limit on the ACF ratings considered, one would expect that if there was parity they would have slightly higher Tornelo than ACF ratings!

    Time to throw the data out and start again, again?
    Wow! You could be right but it's a lot of work for Bill. Clearly the ACF ratings must have a significant problem with inflation though and it needs to be fixed before they become too far out of line with Tornelo.
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
    and fighting against those humourless bureaucrats who are forever lost in the minutiae.

  12. #42
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammo View Post
    Wow! You could be right but it's a lot of work for Bill. Clearly the ACF ratings must have a significant problem with inflation though and it needs to be fixed before they become too far out of line with Tornelo.
    IM James Morris FIDE 2453 Tornelo 2328. 73 Tornelo points lost since last "rating adjustment"
    IM Ari Dale FIDE 2382 (but live >2400) Tornelo 2252. 75 points lost since last "rating adjustment"
    FM Michael Baron FIDE 2331 Tornelo 2192. 198 points lost since last "rating adjustment"
    FM Jack Puccini FIDE 2300 Tornelo 2168. 5 points lost since last "rating adjustment"

    These are the top four players on the Victorian Tornelo rating list.

    I look forward to you telling FIDE as well as the ACF that some shoddy parasitic privately owned rating system, hooked up to a pairings routine that FIDE rejected even after it was "fixed", has proven their ratings to have inflated by several dozen points in a few years and to now be inflated by 130 points for players of this strength.

    I also look forward to your paper showing that IMs in their late teens and early 20s are already on the way down in their playing strength.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammo View Post
    Wow! You could be right but it's a lot of work for Bill. Clearly the ACF ratings must have a significant problem with inflation though and it needs to be fixed before they become too far out of line with Tornelo.
    Beware the fate of Chrysippus an ancient Athenian philosopher who died from laughing at one of his own jokes. A rare form of death resulting from asphyxiation or cardiac arrest and a beautiful way to expire into nothingness.

    Attachment 3400
    Last edited by Frank; 24-03-2017 at 08:34 AM.

  14. #44
    CC FIDE Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    Beware the fate of Chrysippus an ancient Athenian philosopher who died from laughing at one of his own jokes. A rare form of death resulting from asphyxiation or cardiac arrest and a beautiful way to expire into nothingness.

    Attachment 3400
    Well the world could do with a bit more laughter. Unfortunately not all here are blessed with a sense of humour. Another thing that I may have in common with Chrysippus is that we both have a similar hair style.
    Last edited by jammo; 24-03-2017 at 02:31 PM.
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
    and fighting against those humourless bureaucrats who are forever lost in the minutiae.

  15. #45
    CC Candidate Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammo View Post
    Well the world could do with a bit more laughter. Unfortunately not all here are blessed with a sense of humour. Another thing that I may have in common with Chrysippus is that we both have a similar hair style.
    Good on you jammo. I got that off my chest. Your article in 50 moves on Oz history resonated with memories.

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