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  1. #1
    CC FIDE Master
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    Announcing Tornelo Rating System

    I am pleased to announce that Tornelo.com will soon be offering a chess tournament Rating Service for all clubs, schools and events in Australia. See PDF for details...
    * Instant rating updates
    * Fully transparent
    * Tournament archive system (including PGNs)
    * Milestone awards for players
    * Attract more players to your events
    * All events can be rated on the ONE list

    This means anyone can easily rate previously unrated junior, blitz or school events.

    Consider using Tornelo Ratings for all your events. We offer a faster, easier, better looking and more transparent service at a fraction the cost of existing rating fees. Try us out with no risk - if your event is being ACF or FIDE rated then your Tornelo Ratings are free!

    Are you "just" a player? If you would like to see your Tornelo Rating updated after every game you play, make sure you express your wishes to your club or event organiser! Or submit results yourself...anyone can submit results to Tornelo and remember, it's free if the event is ACF or FIDE rated.

    This new rating system will start in early 2013 and will replace both tornelo.chesskids.com.au (our junior only system) and auschess.tornelo.com (our display of ACF ratings) - anyone with a rating on both systems will be merged together.

    Please contact us if you are a business, state/national association or large club - any organisation rating 50 or more events a year may be eligible for our wholesale rates.

    Kind regards,

    David Cordover
    Tornelo.com/aus

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Garrett's Avatar
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    Good luck !!

  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    This is an Elo-based system that in its mechanics repeats almost every mistake that the ACF made decades ago, learned didn't work, and therefore no longer makes again. Special K factors for more important events? About as predictive as the breakfast cereal. Adult and weak junior tournaments thrown in together? There was a 500-point deep crater in the Canberra area caused by the deflationary impact of that little caper. Bonus points? Also dispensed with a lot sooner than David claims we did.

    Depending on how it is implemented, the mix will either cause severe inflation or severe deflation unless it starts being protected by numerous changes; the fun will be seeing which particular direction it blows up in. This will be a rating system disaster movie within five years, probably much faster. Grab the popcorn; just try not to eat too much of it!

    David - when your system starts failing, please do not ask me for free advice, as refusal may offend. If you want me to consider helping with fixing up your mess this time you will have to pay for it.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 07-10-2012 at 01:22 AM.

  4. #4
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    Bonham, is your popcorn warm and ready?
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
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  5. #5
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Oh, has the movie started?

    At the moment I see that James Morris is number 11 in Australia, but he is also number 12. A tournament has been partly rated, the Doeberl Cup, but it seems to be the first few rounds only, and the odd thing is that part of the 2012 event seems to have been added after the December 2012 ratings list. I go for a list of the top players in Tasmania on the Leaderboards page and find that it is headed by Moulthun Ly, who is a Queenslander, and there are no or very few Tasmanians on it. The disclaimer says "The ratings displayed at present are players' ratings from the ACF rating system." which in many cases is actually false. When I go ego-surfing for my own rating I find that in April 2012 my rating dropped from 1912 to 1489 then rose to 1893. But that's OK because "Tournaments from December 1, 1998 onward are awaiting a rerate, player ratings may be subject to change. "

    Oh dear.

  6. #6
    CC FIDE Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Oh, has the movie started?

    At the moment I see that James Morris is number 11 in Australia, but he is also number 12. A tournament has been partly rated, the Doeberl Cup, but it seems to be the first few rounds only, and the odd thing is that part of the 2012 event seems to have been added after the December 2012 ratings list. I go for a list of the top players in Tasmania on the Leaderboards page and find that it is headed by Moulthun Ly, who is a Queenslander, and there are no or very few Tasmanians on it. The disclaimer says "The ratings displayed at present are players' ratings from the ACF rating system." which in many cases is actually false. When I go ego-surfing for my own rating I find that in April 2012 my rating dropped from 1912 to 1489 then rose to 1893. But that's OK because "Tournaments from December 1, 1998 onward are awaiting a rerate, player ratings may be subject to change. "

    Oh dear.
    Congratulations on winning 400 rating points that quickly !
    Chess well played is imagination, calculation, observation, experience and memorization in order of importance.

  7. #7
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    it also states that i am the 27th best 16yr old at chess in the country.
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
    Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small mind discuss people.-Anonymous
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  8. #8
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    It has moved my up to 16th in 1 day
    Whats interesting is with all these ideas the that ratings will either inflate or deflate my rating has changed by -2
    Not 500 point deep craters that i was expecting
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
    Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small mind discuss people.-Anonymous
    He who dares, wins.-SAS motto

  9. #9
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junior master
    It has moved my up to 16th in 1 day
    Whats interesting is with all these ideas the that ratings will either inflate or deflate my rating has changed by -2
    Not 500 point deep craters that i was expecting
    That's possibly because it hasn't processed any new games for you yet. Actually I'm not sure if David has really started it as such or if he is just mucking around with it and leaving the mess on public display.

    As for ratings going out of whack, there was an old advertisement (for some skin or hair care product I think) that used the famous saying "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen!" Takes a few years for the sorts of problems caused by including all-junior tournaments in the same pool as adult tournaments to have much effect. In the classic version of the problem, a pool of weak juniors develops in which everyone is underrated. Some of them start beating the slightly stronger juniors or the weaker adults and drag them down, then they beat the next tier up and drag them down, and so on.

    In the case of David's system he tends to assign an arbitrary strength to tournaments with lots of unrated players in it, but the value he tends to assign is much too high. So the reverse effect over time may be more likely.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 21-02-2013 at 10:44 AM.

  10. #10
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    It at least helps me in what you call ego surfing as for my age i am not to shabby
    Note: currentely winning corro game vs Kaitlin
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
    Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small mind discuss people.-Anonymous
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  11. #11
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    Tornelo has it's faults but it allows anyone to run a tournament fairly easily with very few hassles.
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
    Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small mind discuss people.-Anonymous
    He who dares, wins.-SAS motto

  12. #12
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Posts moved

    Posts about Tornelo generating incorrect pairings have been moved to a new thread in Arbiters Corner. This thread is about Tornelo ratings and not pairings.

  13. #13
    CC FIDE Master James Peirce's Avatar
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    Bonham, have you thrown the popcorn at the screen yet?
    Luck has the peculiar habit of favouring those who don't rely on it!-Anonymous
    Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small mind discuss people.-Anonymous
    He who dares, wins.-SAS motto

  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    *tips big bucket of popcorn over screen*

    Now this is fun.

    IM Robert Jamieson, listed on the ACF master list with an expired rating of 2438x, plays in a seven game blitz tournament at Glen Eira.

    Jamieson scores 7/7 defeating the following (I give their ChessKids ratings first with their ACF in brackets):

    Daniel Poberezovsky 948 (357)
    Michael Gershenzon 1028 (850?)
    Dejan Krmpotic 1512 (1512)
    Carl Gorka 2173 (2165!!)
    Max Phillips 1132 (1171!)
    Samuel Low 1984 (1984?)
    David Cordover 1969 (1969x)

    If this was rated on an ACF list (and yes the ACF will be rating blitz soon, but I'll let Bill announce the details of that!) then Jamieson's new rating on the list including blitz would be probably something in the mid-2500s with a ?? after it. Probably it would be a bit too high but since he wouldn't be listed on any Top lists and since it would correct quickly if he played some more it wouldn't matter. Especially since it isn't his main rating anyway.

    How does the Tornelo system reward IM Jamieson for his 7/7? Answer: with a new rating of 1935, a "loss" of 503 points. And this isn't just on some rapid list either; it's his new rating!

    This is possible because of two bugs in Tornelo that I've mentioned time and time again. The first is the use of batched averages in rating a player who is being given their first rating on the system. Although jammo's opponents have a wide spread of ratings, Tornelo just averages and treats it as if every player he played is rated 1535. To indicate what a difference it makes, the TPR for scoring 6.5/7 against seven 1535s is 1981. But the TPR for scoring 6.5/7 against the field jammo actually met using the system's ratings for them before the event is 2343.

    The second is Tornelo's unbelievably stupid treatment of a perfect score as +400 against the average of opponent ratings, no matter what the spread of ratings or the length of tournament. So in this case, 1535+400=1935. That is even though, as I have noted above, true performance ratings show that dropping half a point against that field would have been good for a performance 808 points above the straight average.

    One thing to talk about long-inactive players "losing" hundreds of points for a bad result (though in the case of an expired ACF rating the points were not lost in the first place) but surely only in the wacky world of Tornelo ratings can an International Master emerge from hibernation, compete in a single blitz tournament, and "lose" 503 points off their main rating for scoring 7/7!



    Surely Tornelo will fix (or fiddle) this rubbish now!

  15. #15
    CC FIDE Master
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    But at least he got to see his new rating straight away!

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