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  1. #31
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett
    Kf4 sets a little trap for Black too.
    Indeed so. For those who haven't seen it:

    (i) What is black's correct reply to Kf4?

    (ii) What then is white's correct reply to that?

    In one line there's another opportunity for white to mess it up and lose a few moves down the track.

    As for the thread theme, white had the rather unappealing option of being a pawn down in a rook ending instead of exchanging into this, though I suspect that ending was objectively drawn.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 06-03-2013 at 01:55 PM.

  2. #32
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    In one line there's another opportunity for white to mess it up and lose a few moves down the track.

    I assume you mean after 1.Kf4! Kh3! 2.Kf3! Kh2. It is interesting that from this position white has only two drawing moves 3.Kf2, keeping the direct opposition, or 4.Kf4, taking diagonal opposition, all other moves lose. After the second of these options Black can then force White to make a whole run of forced moves with 3.Kf4 Kg2 4.Kg4! Kf2 5.Kf4! Ke2 6.Ke4! Kd2 7.Kd4! Kc2 8.Kc4! Kb2 9.Kb4! Ka2. Now at this point White's move is again forced with 10.Ka4! If white thinks he can again take the diagonal opposition with 10.Kc4? he needs to think again as 10.Kc4? Ka3! 11.Kc3 Ka4 12. Kc4 Ka5 and white can no longer keep the opposition and is lost. This is a very pretty sequence although it is not forced since of course white must play 10.Ka4! =.

    Edit: and a similar line occurs after 3.Kf2 Kh1 4.Kf3 Kg1 5.Kg3! etc.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #33
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    More to it than I thought - I had the above but only as far as move 4 being forced.

  4. #34
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    For some reason I can't read white text on my mobile. These words of wisdom will have to wait until I am on my PC.
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  5. #35
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Another one from top level. White was very short of time when he played the fatal 30.Bxd4?? (had about 3 mins for 11 moves and spent 2 of them deciding to blunder) but no excuse as the move was unnecessary as well as losing.

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  6. #36
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    This was the position form one of my first long time control chess games, at the time my rating was in the 900s and my opponents was in the 1600s. I had played badly ealier and ended up being down a piece but after my opponent avoided some simple traps he ended up sacing the piece back to liquidate into an apparently winning pawn ending.

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    I had been about to play the drawing move 43...e5! but then decided I was just going to be wasting my opponents time instead, I mean he was confidant and he had already sacked a piece to get into this clearly winning position right? so I chose to just resign and go home instead. Then when I rode my bike home was getting into bed the image of the board appeared into my mind and I suddenly realised the truth, instantly I got the board and pieces out and conformed the reality, I had just resigned a clearly drawn position!
    One day I'll put something clever here, but for now this will just have to do.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Watson
    This was the position form one of my first long time control chess games, at the time my rating was in the 900s and my opponents was in the 1600s. I had played badly ealier and ended up being down a piece but after my opponent avoided some simple traps he ended up sacing the piece back to liquidate into an apparently winning pawn ending.

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    I had been about to play the drawing move 43...e5! but then decided I was just going to be wasting my opponents time instead, I mean he was confidant and he had already sacked a piece to get into this clearly winning position right? so I chose to just resign and go home instead. Then when I rode my bike home was getting into bed the image of the board appeared into my mind and I suddenly realised the truth, instantly I got the board and pieces out and conformed the reality, I had just resigned a clearly drawn position!
    Sorry to disappoint you but White wins fairly easily.
    Still searching for Bobby Fischer....
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammo
    Sorry to disappoint you but White wins fairly easily.
    Black can forcibly get a protected passed pawn though and at the same time still have the tempi to prevent white from promoting the outside passed pawns by themselves. So if white tries to promote we end up in a situation where black is babysitting the a/b pawns and white is babysitting the f pawn. If white is winning here that means I must have missed some tactic that involves white mating with the pawns or white can somehow allow black to promote. I'm guessing there must be some sort of pawn mate motif if white wins easily, is that it?


    Just looking at it now you're right, I think white does win by simply escorting the pawns
    Last edited by James Watson; 08-04-2013 at 07:47 PM.
    One day I'll put something clever here, but for now this will just have to do.

  9. #39
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Watson
    Black can forcibly get a protected passed pawn though and at the same time still have the tempi to prevent white from promoting the outside passed pawns by themselves. So if white tries to promote we end up in a situation where black is babysitting the a/b pawns and white is babysitting the f pawn. If white is winning here that means I must have missed some tactic that involves white mating with the pawns or white can somehow allow black to promote. I'm guessing there must be some sort of pawn mate motif if white wins easily, is that it?
    White has a lot more freedom than your analysis would suggest since he can "babysit" the f-pawn from as far away as b5. This allows white to get the Q-side pawns through pretty easily. If black tries to break with f4 then white can calmly return to pick up the f-pawn and then return to promote the a- or b-pawn, all the while his a- and b-pawns are untouchable.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #40
    CC International Master Carl Gorka's Avatar
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    My latest blog post is about this subject.
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  11. #41
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    Nice instructive endgame there. I really love all the nuances that are involved in pawn endings, even simple ones
    One day I'll put something clever here, but for now this will just have to do.

  12. #42
    CC International Master Jesper Norgaard's Avatar
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    Interesting position that could have occurred in one of my games - eventually it was a draw. White just played 41.Qc3-h8 in an attempt to get checks from behind with Qh7+ and Qh8+. The question is if Black can play 41...Qd4+ 42.Qxd4 cxd4. Is this winning for Black? My first impression was that it was not very promising. It turned out to be quite difficult to evaluate for a human. Answers in white please.
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  13. #43
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    I don't have an analysis but my impression is that this looks winning for Black. Looking at the pawn position doesn't black a-pawn block whites b-pawn and the king side is held by blacks king and g-pawn so White's king has to do something about the d-pawn and while that is happening Black can win a k-side pawn and break through with the g-pawn. Something like 1...Qd4+ 2.Qxd4 cxd4 3.Kf2 Ke6. Now if 4.Ke2 black can play 4... Kf5 and use d3-d2 to divert the king and allow a breakthrough into win the k-side pawns. If 4.Kf3 d3 5.Ke3 Kf5 with the same idea. White wants to swap off all the pawns but can't force this because needs to be in a position to win both d-pawns when this occurs. Could be totally wrong as it is just a brief impression.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #44
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    My first impression (without comp) is that ...Qd4+ at best throws away black's winning chances. It would win if black could get the king to g4, but that isn't possible by force. So 41...Qd4+ 42.Qxd4 cxd4 43.Kf2 Ke6 44.Ke2 now:

    44...Kf5 45.Kf3 threatening g4+
    44...Kd5 45.Kd3

    in neither case do I see a way for black to make progress so long as white maintains these two oppositions as required. If 45.Kf3 d3 as decoy, g4+ and gets the d-pawn.

    In a practical game if black was at all short of time I would play ...Qd1+ fishing for the cheapie Kg2 Qd2+ Khx Qh5+ winning!
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 19-11-2013 at 04:32 PM.

  15. #45
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    But now I see why it's trickier than at first looks. Black may be able to offer the d-pawn as bait before the king gets to f3, and thus reach g4. Even if I couldn't see a concrete win for black and thought it was probably drawn, I would still not have risked allowing the queen swap with black without being sure it was safe.

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