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  1. #46
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather, closet racist
    Of course black on black crime is going to be greater than white on black, or black on white crime. The partners of black people will be predominantly other black people. The family members of black people are going to be other black people. More often black people are going to live in the same community and associate with black people at a greater rate than with white people. Given that most violence does not take place between strangers, but between those in intimate relationships (self-evidently much more often in the case of domestic violence), it is not at all surprising that the rates of black on black crime are going to be greater than white on black crime.
    Still shows that blacks have far more to fear from other blacks than from whites. And this liberal excuse-making doesn't explain the far higher black-on-white crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    I wasn't going to mention anything about Elder's argument. Your racism means that you seem to believe that an argument promulgated by a black person critical of black people is valid simply by virtue of the fact that the writer is himself black. I, on the other hand, believe that a crap argument is a crap argument, regardless of whether it is promoted by a black or a white person.
    Not attempt to refute his facts of course. Typical of a white leftard racist like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Various figures have been given for the weights of the two individuals, but no sources have suggested that Martin was bigger than Zimmerman, much less "much bigger" than him.
    From the leftard Communist News Network:
    A police report listed Martin's height at six feet.
    Here it is, listing Zimmerman as 5'9"

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Thank you for affirming my point. You are a racism denialist. No racism against black people exists in America and especially not in Georgia.
    So little that I've hardly noticed, and I live here. But there is certainly racism in the black community, as shown by those voting for Obamov, which you weakly try to excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    KB has explained before why a black person may find it politically advantageous or pragmatic to vote for a black person on this basis.
    It's still racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    On the other hand to attempt to justify voting for a white person because he is white on the same grounds would be quite bizarre, given that white people have never been a disadvantaged and under-represented constituency,
    More whites were enslaved by Muslims than blacks were taken in the Middle Passage. As your fellow anti-Christian, the late Christopher Hitchens writes:
    “How many know that perhaps 1.5 million Europeans and Americans were enslaved in Islamic North Africa between 1530 and 1780?”

    You are being racist by holding white voters to a different standard to black voters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    must as Jono would like to portray them as the real victims.
    Because I treat people as individuals. A white person beaten up by blacks shouting "honky", or who is denied a job or university place in favour of a black under "affirmative action", is very much a victim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    By this response you seem to be suggesting that it is perfectly legitimate to view a black person as suspicious merely because he is black? I must say, it is deeply disturbing that you don't even make an attempt to conceal your racism these days.
    No more racist than Jesse Jackson, as shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Who pushed for the "Stand Your Ground" law? Why the NRA, of course.
    Good, I knew there was a good reason I joined!

    The Castle Doctrine is even more important.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  2. #47
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    There is something fishy about any "special prosecutor".
    Really? Often the reason for having one is to avoid fishiness, eg in cases of conflict of interest. In this case we have a prosecutor deciding not to prosecute even though the police wanted to, which in this instance caused a massive outcry.

    It's much better that the decision be reviewed by a different prosecutor than that the prosecutor be placed in the position of reconsidering his own decision knowing that there is massive public criticism of him for the decisions he has taken to that point. Maybe he would have handled that pressure well, maybe he would have dug in, maybe he would have overcompensated. He did the right thing by recusing. The special prosecutor was in a much easier position because if she agreed that no charges should be laid then it could be said the case had been reviewed with the same outcome, and she would not be personally to blame for the whole thing.

    It doesn't help though that it's the USA where almost every aspect of public life is party-politicised. So Corey herself has a COI by Australian standards as she is up for re-election soon. In American standards that sort of COI is seen as an accountability mechanism.

    Will you still be saying it was fishy to bring in a special prosecutor if it results in a conviction?

  3. #48
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Still shows that blacks have far more to fear from other blacks than from whites.
    Because black people will have more interaction with other black people, as I said.

    What racist point are you trying to make anyway? Are you trying to suggest that black people are (more) violent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    And this liberal excuse-making doesn't explain the far higher black-on-white crime.
    Of course not - I wasn't trying to. One has to look at other socio-economic considerations for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not attempt to refute his facts of course. Typical of a white leftard racist like you.
    What facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    From the leftard Communist News Network:
    A police report listed Martin's height at six feet.
    Here it is, listing Zimmerman as 5'9"
    There is a difference between "taller" and "bigger". Martin was a 6 foot beanpole. Zimmerman was a stocky 5'9". More to the point, Zimmerman was 27, while Martin was 17.

    Given your typically obtuse nature, you missed my original point, which was that Zimmerman at 27 bears much more culpability for his conduct than two "teenagers" do for theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    So little that I've hardly noticed, and I live here.
    But then again, you seriously believe that you are not racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    But there is certainly racism in the black community, as shown by those voting for Obamov, which you weakly try to excuse.
    Whether the prejudice of a black person could technically be regarded as "racism" is questionable, but I have never sought to deny that such prejudice does exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It's still racist.
    No it's not, if the motivation itself is not racist. But of course you fail to understand the concept of racism, honestly believing that you are not a contemptible racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    More whites were enslaved by Muslims than blacks were taken in the Middle Passage. As your fellow anti-Christian, the late Christopher Hitchens writes:
    “How many know that perhaps 1.5 million Europeans and Americans were enslaved in Islamic North Africa between 1530 and 1780?”
    Have you got a point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    You are being racist by holding white voters to a different standard to black voters.
    No, I'm suggesting that to the extent that a member of a marginalised group votes for a member of their own race in the hope that this would reduce marginalisation of this race, this reason is not open to a member of a non-marginalised race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Because I treat people as individuals.
    Rubbish. As I pointed out in my last post, you compulsively feel the need to identify the race of people such as Sowell, Elder, Cain ("himself a black man"), Zimmerman etc, in circumstances where their race is completely irrelevant.

    Don't think I missed the fact that you skipped over this criticism. Even someone as profoundly ignorant and racist as yourself can only deceive himself for so long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    No more racist than Jesse Jackson, as shown.
    You use this quote to justify the belief that it is reasonable to view a black person as suspicious just because he is black. You are actually proud of your racism, even if you don't wish to define it as such. No reasonable reading of the Jackson quote could suggest that Jackson would be proud of such ignorance.

    Of course the quote itself is interesting and I would be interested in seeing the quote in its broader context. I can see a number of possible readings in the quote itself, which might be clarified by working out the broader narrative.
    Last edited by Goughfather; 12-04-2012 at 07:11 PM.
    "People with guns don't understand. That's why they get guns. Too many misunderstandings." - Jerry Seinfeld, The Little Kicks

  4. #49
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    What racist point are you trying to make anyway? Are you trying to suggest that black people are (more) violent?
    Not a suggestion, but the data. This extra violence is a fact, but this is not the fault of their colour, but of leftard policies that break up black families, condemn black kids to crappy schools, and keep them unemployed with minimum wage laws. They were not more violent before the 1960s, nor more unemployed, and usually came from double-parent families. Yet they were generations closer to slavery, and lived in a time of open racism and segregation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Of course not - I wasn't trying to. One has to look at other socio-economic considerations for that.
    Like the welfare that incentivizes single parenting. The same has resulted in the breakdown of the white underclass in the UK as well, so it's not a

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    There is a difference between "taller" and "bigger". Martin was a 6 foot beanpole. Zimmerman was a stocky 5'9". More to the point, Zimmerman was 27, while Martin was 17.
    Or else, Martin was a wiry youth with a long reach, while Zimmerman is a slower man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Whether the prejudice of a black person could technically be regarded as "racism" is questionable, but I have never sought to deny that such prejudice does exist.
    No question about it, except in the mind of racists like you who hold black people to lower standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    No it's not, if the motivation itself is not racist. But of course you fail to understand the concept of racism, honestly believing that you are not a contemptible racist.
    Indeed I am not: a real racist would not support Cain as a candidate or recommend books by Sowell or Williams. But you really are a contemptible racist just by MLK's famous saying: you hold black people to lower standards of attitudes and behaviours than white people just because of their colour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    No, I'm suggesting that to the extent that a member of a marginalised group votes for a member of their own race in the hope that this would reduce marginalisation of this race, this reason is not open to a member of a non-marginalised race.
    A multimillionaire black actor is hardly marginalized, unlike a poor white man who lost his job because of an affirmative action quota. But if he voted for McCain because he was white, you would shriek about how racist that was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Rubbish. As I pointed out in my last post, you compulsively feel the need to identify the race of people such as Sowell, Elder, Cain ("himself a black man"), Zimmerman etc, in circumstances where their race is completely irrelevant.
    Not at all. Leftard black race-baiters in the grievance industry have accused Sowell and Williams of being white racists, not knowing what they looked like. Similarly, to feed the mantra about racist white America, the LeftMedia invented the category of "white Hispanic".

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    You use this quote to justify the belief that it is reasonable to view a black person as suspicious just because he is black. You are actually proud of your racism, even if you don't wish to define it as such. No reasonable reading of the Jackson quote could suggest that Jackson would be proud of such ignorance.
    Yet he was admitting that he could make a snap judgement based on probabilities, when there was no time to acquire knowledge to the contrary. Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell have pointed out that knowledge has a cost.

    Williams mentions a case of a "white Bayesian", relying on probabilities, who saw him in the garden of an otherwise white neighbourhood, and offered to hire him for working on his garden. Williams said that he needed to finish his doctoral dissertation, and the neighbour was suitably embarrased, but Williams was not annoyed. He also mentions a "black Bayesian" who picked up Mrs Williams as a hitchiker, and asked, "what's it like working for these cheap white people. Mrs W told her, "I don't work for any cheap white people; I live here." The other black woman soon let her out of the car. Jesse Jackson was being a black Bayesian.

    Sowell has also pointed out that about a century ago, many American businesses had signs saying, "No Irish need apply." This was "prejudice" against a white race. But there were reasons for such a sign in the behaviour of many Irish of those days, so it was just reducing the probabilities of hiring someone bad, when an employer had too little time to vet individuals. Irish leaders and priests themselves worked hard to end these problems, to such good effect that these signs disappeared decades before there was any anti-discrimination law against them.

    Sowell also points out that an employer wanting hard physical labor would probably pick a fit-looking six-footer in his 20s over a slight 5'3" woman. There was one disaster in more recent politically correct times where an Atlanta courthouse massacre occurred when a 200-pound former linebacker overpowered the 51yo 5'1" woman "guarding" him and took her gun.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 14-04-2012 at 05:58 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  5. #50
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not a suggestion, but the data. This extra violence is a fact, but this is not the fault of their colour, but of leftard policies that break up black families, condemn black kids to crappy schools, and keep them unemployed with minimum wage laws. They were not more violent before the 1960s, nor more unemployed, and usually came from double-parent families. Yet they were generations closer to slavery, and lived in a time of open racism and segregation.
    Gee, if only we could go back to those good ol' days, right Jono? Back then, I suppose you think that black people knew their place and didn't bother with that whole education thing.

    You make me speechless sometimes. You truly are a repulsive and reprehensible human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Or else, Martin was a wiry youth with a long reach, while Zimmerman is a slower man.
    Now you are making assumptions. What aren't assumptions is that Zimmerman deliberately followed after Martin and that Zimmerman was the one holding the gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    No question about it, except in the mind of racists like you who hold black people to lower standards.
    Not at all. Racial prejudice is a negative thing, but it comes from a different place to institutionalised power and racism. In the latter situation, a poor black man may receive different treatment at a hospital because he is perceived to be a junkie searching for drugs - incidentally, the type of snap judgment a racist such as yourself would regard as acceptable according to a so-called Bayesian judgment. In the former situation, a poor black man may distrust a white doctor in circumstances where the white doctor has done nothing to warrant this mistrust, the situation being that the poor black man has had previous negative experiences with the health system. These are both examples racial prejudice, but coming from very different places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Indeed I am not: a real racist would not support Cain as a candidate or recommend books by Sowell or Williams. But you really are a contemptible racist just by MLK's famous saying: you hold black people to lower standards of attitudes and behaviours than white people just because of their colour.
    Yes, we know, we know, the whole "I'm not a racist - some of my best friends are black" argument, which you seem to think places you above any suggestion that you are.

    The following clip very succinctly outlines the backward looking worldview of people just like Jono, who would dismiss any criticism of them as "politically correct". Note particularly the part of the clip from 6:00 onwards, in which people like Jono wish to use (yes, use as in exploit) token black friends to pretend that they are not in fact racist, despite all evidence to the contrary:



    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    A multimillionaire black actor is hardly marginalized, unlike a poor white man who lost his job because of an affirmative action quota. But if he voted for McCain because he was white, you would shriek about how racist that was.
    I appreciate that greedy mercenaries such as yourself who distort the facts for financial gain may not recognise the idea of solidary with a cause broader than yourself, but did it occur to you that even a wealthy black person may believe that there would be some broader interest to black people more generally by virtue of voting for Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not at all. Leftard black race-baiters in the grievance industry have accused Sowell and Williams of being white racists, not knowing what they looked like.
    And as I've said, their arguments can be judged on their merits (and hence fall short) regardless of their skin colour. You seek to use such commentators as "amulets" and hence don't support black people, but rather exploit them. Move along, cowboy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yet he was admitting that he could make a snap judgement based on probabilities, when there was no time to acquire knowledge to the contrary. Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell have pointed out that knowledge has a cost.
    Oh, I get it. You're no racist. You're just a "racial realist". Just like all those other racists who like to call themselves racial realists.

    As I've pointed out, there is no way that Jackson would regard himself as proud of displaying such ignorance. You are proud of your prejudice. That's the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Williams mentions a case of a "white Bayesian", relying on probabilities, who saw him in the garden of an otherwise white neighbourhood, and offered to hire him for working on his garden. Williams said that he needed to finish his doctoral dissertation, and the neighbour was suitably embarrased, but Williams was not annoyed. He also mentions a "black Bayesian" who picked up Mrs Williams as a hitchiker, and asked, "what's it like working for these cheap white people. Mrs W told her, "I don't work for any cheap white people; I live here." The other black woman soon let her out of the car. Jesse Jackson was being a black Bayesian.
    Just because racism can be fairly innocuous, it doesn't change the fact that it is nonetheless racism. The racists in these examples ended up looking like ignorant buffoons, just as you do when you display your racism, but it doesn't make it any more justifiable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Sowell has also pointed out that about a century ago, many American businesses had signs saying, "No Irish need apply." This was "prejudice" against a white race. But there were reasons for such a sign in the behaviour of many Irish of those days, so it was just reducing the probabilities of hiring someone bad, when an employer had too little time to vet individuals. Irish leaders and priests themselves worked hard to end these problems, to such good effect that these signs disappeared decades before there was any anti-discrimination law against them.
    Thank you for helping to demonstrate Ian's definition and for further demonstrating just how repulsive you are for justifying racism. A century ago, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants had the institutional power, both in America and in Australia. Sectarianism meant that Irish Catholics, a then marginalised group of people on an institutional level were subject to unjustified racism. It was not the improvement of Irish people that changed this situation, but the waning influence of the Protestant church and a better appreciation of the silliness of discrimination on sectarian and racial grounds that changed things for the better.
    Last edited by Goughfather; 14-04-2012 at 09:38 PM.
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  6. #51
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Gee, if only we could go back to those good ol' days, right Jono? Back then, I suppose you think that black people knew their place and didn't bother with that whole education thing.
    Actually, as the lives of Sowell and Williams show that proper education was the way out of poverty. Williams has said he was glad he was educated "before it became fashionable to like black people", so they held him to the same standards. Sowell has also documented that black people made their greatest advances in the decades before civil rights laws. Cain also grew up poor, but made something of himself by becoming educated (actually in rocket science) then a businessman.

    Now, many blacks are trapped in failing schools. The Dems keep them there because they depend on the teachers unions for much support. Obamov himself abolished scholarship funding for charter schools that helped DC black kids get a better education—and these schools were costing only a third of the government schools. Before that of course, Dems forced schools to segregate.

    Democrats also push for minimum wage laws, that Milton Friedman called the most anti-black laws around, keeping black teens unemployed. And of course, they support rewarding girls for having kids out of wedlock, finally disintegrating the black family that had survived slavery and Jim Crow.
    So spare me your hypocritical "left is the friend of blacks" crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    You make me speechless sometimes. You truly are a repulsive and reprehensible human being.
    Sticks and stones, from an obnoxious leftard ambulance-chasing projecting racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Now you are making assumptions. What aren't assumptions is that Zimmerman deliberately followed after Martin and that Zimmerman was the one holding the gun.
    We need to see what Zimmerman looked like after the incident. If his face was bruised and the back of his head cut, it would support the claim that Martin attacked him. Also, Zimmerman was doing his job as a neighborhood watch officer in following someone who was not part of his neighborhood, which had experienced recent crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Not at all. Racial prejudice is a negative thing, but it comes from a different place to institutionalised power and racism.
    The institutionalized racism of the Southern USA was a reality 50 years ago, but it's not there now. All that remains is a small minority of whites and rather a lot of blacks with racist attitudes like Samuel "I voted for Obamov because he's black" Jackson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    In the latter situation, a poor black man may receive different treatment at a hospital because he is perceived to be a junkie searching for drugs - incidentally, the type of snap judgment a racist such as yourself would regard as acceptable according to a so-called Bayesian judgment.
    More nonsensical assumptions. In a hospital, obviously people are treated as individuals, e.g. blood type. But I have documented that blacks like Jesse Jackson make so-called Bayesian judgements too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Yes, we know, we know, the whole "I'm not a racist - some of my best friends are black" argument, which you seem to think places you above any suggestion that you are.
    Which is actually a reasonable argument, but leftards have decreed that it doesn't apply, just so the ones they accuse can no longer defend themselves of their race-baiting charges.

    Yet GF is the one who holds black people to lower standards than white people, making him the real racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    I appreciate that greedy mercenaries such as yourself who distort the facts for financial gain may not recognise the idea of solidary with a cause broader than yourself,
    Ah greedy--that must explain my yacht and mansion ... Oh wait, I don't have those, whereas Je$$e Jack$on has made millions by his race-baiting shakedowns of businesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    You seek to use such commentators as "amulets" and hence don't support black people, but rather exploit them. Move along, cowboy.
    As I documented, Dems just want the black vote, while their policies actually hurt them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Oh, I get it. You're no racist. You're just a "racial realist". Just like all those other racists who like to call themselves racial realists.
    If that includes Sowell and Williams, I am honoured to be in their company.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    As I've pointed out, there is no way that Jackson would regard himself as proud of displaying such ignorance. You are proud of your prejudice. That's the difference.
    Rubbish. Jackson regarded it as a sad reflection on the situation that he would be more worried by black people in an alley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Thank you for helping to demonstrate Ian's definition and for further demonstrating just how repulsive you are for justifying racism. A century ago, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants had the institutional power, both in America and in Australia. Sectarianism meant that Irish Catholics, a then marginalised group of people on an institutional level were subject to unjustified racism.
    Yet as I pointed out, the Irish Catholic leaders recognized that there was a problem in many Irish, and worked hard to solve it successfully. These employers were risking their own money, and thought it was more of a gamble to hire an Irishman of the day. Leftard ambulance-chasers like GF can look back from a century later and claim that there was no justification, but they are not risking their own money. This unfortunate anti-Irish prejudice, which did indeed harm hardworking Irish people, shows it was not a skin colour thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    It was not the improvement of Irish people that changed this situation, but the waning influence of the Protestant church and a better appreciation of the silliness of discrimination on sectarian and racial grounds that changed things for the better.
    Sowell has documented the contrary: the hard work of the Irish leaders to change behaviour so there would be no longer any reason for prejudice, and it worked.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 15-04-2012 at 01:44 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  7. #52
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Given that this thread has developed into a discussion about Trayvon Martin, I shall leave the rest of Jono's response in the trash, where it belongs. This part of the response did actually mention Zimmerman and Martin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    We need to see what Zimmerman looked like after the incident. If his face was bruised and the back of his head cut, it would support the claim that Martin attacked him. Also, Zimmerman was doing his job as a neighborhood watch officer in following someone who was not part of his neighborhood, which had experienced recent crime.
    The video of Zimmerman at the police station didn't seem to suggest any injuries. There is meant to be an "enhanced" version, which does indicate some injury to the back of Zimmerman's head. To my knowledge, nobody has seriously suggested that there is evidence that Zimmerman's nose was broken or that there are any injuries to his face, contrary to his own claims.

    Zimmerman was only a "neighbourhood watch officer" in the sense that he appointed himself to this role. He was a vigilante with delusions of grandeur. No-one from the community endorsed him in this role and the Sanford police had a file relating to his continual nuisance calls from him.
    "People with guns don't understand. That's why they get guns. Too many misunderstandings." - Jerry Seinfeld, The Little Kicks

  8. #53
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    The video of Zimmerman at the police station didn't seem to suggest any injuries. There is meant to be an "enhanced" version, which does indicate some injury to the back of Zimmerman's head. To my knowledge, nobody has seriously suggested that there is evidence that Zimmerman's nose was broken or that there are any injuries to his face, contrary to his own claims.
    Even that alone is consistent with his claim that Martin was bashing his head against the ground.

    Thomas Sowell writes:
    One of the first things presented in the media was a transcript of a conversation between George Zimmerman and a police dispatcher. The last line in most of the transcripts shown on TV was that of the police dispatcher telling Zimmerman not to continue following Trayvon Martin.

    That became the basis of many media criticisms of Zimmerman for continuing to follow him. Only later did I see a transcript of that conversation on the Sean Hannity program that included Zimmerman's reply to the police dispatcher: "O.K."

    That reply removed the only basis for assuming that Zimmerman did in fact continue to follow Trayvon Martin. At this point, neither I nor the people who assumed that he continued to follow the teenager have any basis in fact for believing that he did or didn't.

    Why was that reply edited out by so many in the media? Because too many people in the media see their role as filtering and slanting the news to fit their own vision of the world. The issue is not one of being "fair" to "both sides" but, more fundamentally, of being honest with their audience.
    NBC News carried the editing even further, removing one of the police dispatcher's questions, to which Zimmerman was responding, in order to feed the vision of Zimmerman as a racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Zimmerman was only a "neighbourhood watch officer" in the sense that he appointed himself to this role. He was a vigilante with delusions of grandeur. No-one from the community endorsed him in this role and the Sanford police had a file relating to his continual nuisance calls from him.
    Even if true, it is irrelevant.

    Back to another matter, libertarian columnist Jacob Sullum writes in Self-Defense Under Attack:
    In the meantime, it is worth noting that Florida's violent crime rate, which fell by 12 percent in the five years before the "stand your ground" law was enacted, fell by 23 percent in the five years afterward. Since 1987, when Florida adopted a nondiscretionary carry permit law that the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence blames for "year after year of carnage," the state's violent crime rate has been cut nearly in half.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  9. #54
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Back to another matter, libertarian columnist Jacob Sullum writes in Self-Defense Under Attack:
    In the meantime, it is worth noting that Florida's violent crime rate, which fell by 12 percent in the five years before the "stand your ground" law was enacted, fell by 23 percent in the five years afterward. Since 1987, when Florida adopted a nondiscretionary carry permit law that the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence blames for "year after year of carnage," the state's violent crime rate has been cut nearly in half.
    First and foremost, correlation does not imply causation. Additionally, "crimes" which are deemed to be permissible homicides under SYG would be filtered from the violent crimes stats and furthermore any Florida crime figures should be viewed in the context of the crime rates in other states both with and without SYG legislation.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #55
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    First and foremost, correlation does not imply causation.
    You didn't make this point when GF whinged about the number of justifiable homicides increasing. Like most leftards, you want to give more rights to criminals and fewer to victims, like the absurd "duty to retreat" from scumbags.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  11. #56
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    You didn't make this point when GF whinged about the number of justifiable homicides increasing. Like most leftards, you want to give more rights to criminals and fewer to victims, like the absurd "duty to retreat" from scumbags.
    I not sure which post you mean but to clarify my post a little more in perhaps the direction you are alluding to:

    In principle it should not be difficult to count the number of permissible homicides that have invoked the SYG law. It is not a question of whether the new legislation "caused" those homocides, it is just a matter of how the shootings which did occur are accounted as either crimes or non-crimes.

    Showing causation is never easy and simply looking at a raw figure is certainly not sufficient. What is of greater concern is when the crime figures for a single state are quoted with no national context. I have seen it reported that violent crime numbers are down nationally and even in states without SYG legislation. I don't have a reliable source but I'm not trying to make that argument just pointing out that the "analysis" you were presenting (i.e. SYG has lead to fewer violent crimes in Florida) is woefully inadequate to show even a meaningful correlation.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #57
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Even that alone is consistent with his claim that Martin was bashing his head against the ground.
    That's debatable, given that it is suggested that all Zimmerman had was two small cuts to the back of his head.

    What's perhaps more important, photographs of Zimmerman post-incident are distinctly inconsistent with his suggestions that his nose was broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Even if true, it is irrelevant.
    It's very relevant, given that one of the planks of your defence is that Zimmerman was merely doing his job. The fact that no-one asked for or wanted his help is important. It suggests not only that Zimmerman was profoundly unqualified to act as he did, it also suggests that his behaviour was both reckless and predatory.
    "People with guns don't understand. That's why they get guns. Too many misunderstandings." - Jerry Seinfeld, The Little Kicks

  13. #58
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    That's debatable, given that it is suggested that all Zimmerman had was two small cuts to the back of his head.

    What's perhaps more important, photographs of Zimmerman post-incident are distinctly inconsistent with his suggestions that his nose was broken.



    It's very relevant, given that one of the planks of your defence is that Zimmerman was merely doing his job. The fact that no-one asked for or wanted his help is important. It suggests not only that Zimmerman was profoundly unqualified to act as he did, it also suggests that his behaviour was both reckless and predatory.
    Here are some facts about him, which the race-baiting leftards don't want people to know:
    • Zimmerman grew up in a mixed-race household
    • He was an altar boy at his Caltholic church from age 7-17
    • He is bilingual
    • After he finished high school, he studied for and got an insurance license
    • In 2004, Zimmerman and a black friend opened an Allstate insurance office (which soon failed)
    • Zimmerman's 2005 arrest for "resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer" occurred after he shoved an under-cover alcohol control agent at a bar when the agent was trying to arrest an underage friend of his (he was 22 at the time)
    • Zimmerman married his wife, Shellie, in 2007. They rented a house in Twin Lakes. Twin Lakes is about 50% white, 20% Hispanic, and 20% black.
    • In 2009, Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College
    • In the fall of 2009, a pit bull broke free twice and once cornered Shellie in the Zimmermans' yard. George Zimmerman asked a police officer whether he should buy pepper spray. The cop told him pepper spray wasn't fast enough and recommended that he get a gun.
    • By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes "was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins." In several of the cases, witnesses said the robbers were young black men
    • In July 2011, a black teenager stole a bicycle off the Zimmermans' porch
    • In August of 2011, a neighbor of the Zimmermans, Olivia Bertalan, was home during the day when two young black men entered her house. She hid in a room upstairs and called the police. When the police arrived, the two men, who had been trying to take a TV, fled. One of them ran through the Zimmermans' yard.
    • After the break-in, George Zimmerman stopped by the Bertalans and gave Olivia a card with his name and number on it. He told her to visit his wife Shellie if she felt unsafe.
    • The police recommended that Bertalan get a dog. She moved away instead. Zimmerman got a second dog--a Rottweiler.
    • In September, several concerned residents of the neighborhood, including Zimmerman, asked the neighborhood association to create a neighborhood watch. Zimmerman was asked to run it.
    • In the next month, two more houses in the neighborhood were robbed.
    • A community newsletter reminded residents to report any crimes to the police and then call "George Zimmerman, our captain."
    • On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman spotted a young black man looking into the windows of a neighbor's empty house. He called the police and said "I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally." The police sent a car, but by the time they arrived, the man was gone.
    • On February 6th, another house was burglarized. Witnesses said two of the robbers were black teenagers. One, who had prior burglary convictions, was soon caught with a laptop stolen from the house.
    • Two weeks later, Zimmerman spotted Travyon Martin and called the police.
    • The last time he had done this, the suspect got away. This time, he disregarded police instructions and followed [although is even this true?]. A few minutes later, Martin was dead.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  14. #59
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Media Dishonesty and Race Hustlers
    By Walter E. Williams (Archive) · Wednesday, April 11, 2012

    When NBC's "Today" show played the audio of George Zimmerman's call to a Sanford, Fla., police dispatcher about Trayvon Martin, the editors made him appear to be a racist who says: "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black." What Zimmerman actually said was: "This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's just walking around, looking about." The 911 officer responded by asking, "OK, and this guy -- is he black, white or Hispanic?" Zimmerman replied, "He looks black." NBC says it's investigating the doctoring of the audio, but there's nothing to investigate; its objective was to inflame passions.

    In his Associated Press article titled "Old photos may be deceptive in Fla. shooting case," Matt Sedensky pointed out that the photos carried by the major media were several years old and showed Zimmerman looking fat and mean and Martin looking like a sweet young kid.

    Jesse Jackson told the Los Angeles Times that "blacks are under attack" and that "targeting, arresting, convicting blacks and ultimately killing us is big business," adding that Martin is "a martyr." President Barack Obama chimed in by saying, "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon."

    Let's look at some non-news cases. On March 14 in Tulsa, Okla., a white couple suffered a home invasion by Tyrone Woodfork, a 20-year-old black man. Ninety-year-old Bob Strait suffered a broken jaw and broken ribs in the attack. His 85-year-old wife, Nancy, was sexually assaulted and battered to death, ending their 65-year marriage.

    On March 4, two black Kansas City, Mo., youths doused a 13-year-old boy in gasoline and set him on fire, telling him, "You get what you deserve, white boy." Last summer, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel ordered an emergency shutdown of the beaches in Chicago because mobs of blacks were terrorizing white families.

    Several years ago, in Knoxville, Tenn., a young white couple was kidnapped by four blacks. The girl was forced to witness her boyfriend's rape, torture and subsequent murder before she was raped, tortured and murdered. Before disposing of her body, the three men and one woman poured bleach or some other cleaning agent down her throat in an effort to destroy DNA evidence. A jury found the four guilty, and they were sentenced, but because of the judge's drug use, a retrial is being considered. ...
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  15. #60
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Here are some facts about him, which the race-baiting leftards don't want people to know:
    • ...
    • In the fall of 2009, a pit bull broke free twice and once cornered Shellie in the Zimmermans' yard. George Zimmerman asked a police officer whether he should buy pepper spray. The cop told him pepper spray wasn't fast enough and recommended that he get a gun.
    The article that yours cites as a source, here tells more of the story:

    "Don't use pepper spray," he told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. "It'll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter second for the dog to jump you," he said.

    "Get a gun."

    That November, the Zimmermans completed firearms training at a local lodge and received concealed-weapons gun permits. In early December, another source close to them told Reuters, the couple bought a pair of guns. George picked a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm handgun, a popular, lightweight weapon.

    By June 2011, Zimmerman's attention had shifted from a loose pit bull to a wave of robberies that rattled the community, called the Retreat at Twin Lakes. The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch, and Zimmerman would begin to carry the Kel-Tec on his regular, dog-walking patrol - a violation of neighborhood watch guidelines but not a crime.
    meep meep

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