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  1. #31
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    In my current view, probably neither the killing nor the non-charging were racially motivated but the case is still concerning.
    It's not clear to me that either of those are "probable" depending on how you define the term. Firstly there is a disputed piece of audio on the 911 call which some commentators have interpreted as Zimmerman muttering a racial slur. Even if true the use of a racial slur does not make race the motivation of the shooting but if true it does make it more likely. Secondly I think it beggars belief that if the situation was reversed and Martin shot Zimmerman and then claimed defence under stand your ground laws that he wouldn't at least be charged with manslaughter. Again this doesn't make the decision to not press charges racially motivated but I think there would likely be a double standard at play if races were reversed.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  2. #32
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Oh really? Burt Prelutsky argues:
    [INDENT]Just in terms of public relations, wouldn't it have been a good idea for Obama to have spoken a few well-chosen words after the 13-year-old white kid, Allen Coon, in Kansas City, was recently doused in gasoline and set on fire while the two black teenagers hollered, "You get what you deserve, white boy!"?
    I can see what you find appealing in this author - he occupies the same paranoid headspace that you are so famous for on these fora. "Every one is out to get me and the white race" seems to be your common refrain of late.

    Kevin makes some good points about the outrage being about the nature of the police investigation, of which I will make further comments later. However, the situations are not even really comparable from the scant information Prelutsky provides. For a start, Zimmerman is 27 while the two offenders in this matter are "teenagers", precise age not specified.

    Of course, while it cannot be denied that the Coon attack appears to be particularly nasty, further context would be helpful in the circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    What if Romney had said something like "he looks rather like one of my sons did when he was younger".
    I wonder if this says more about yourself and other racists. Without any basis, you come to the conclusion that Obama would have said that about any black person, whereas in truth, pictures of the late Trayvon Martin actually do not look that dissimilar to the young Barack Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not unless you count the fact that he's a registered member of the party of slavery, KKK, segregation, and Jim Crow laws, i.e. GF's favorite American political party, the Democrats.
    Or not unless you actually look at what was said in the recording or look at Zimmerman's history of harrassing black people who were simply minding their own business.

    Of course, the idea that any racism against black people exists in contemporary America is an idea that a racist such as yourself seeks to deny at all costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Wow, you're really reaching now ...

    Just for anyone who wants to listen to the recording and make up their own mind, I'll include the clip below:



    A few other thoughts:

    (1) While I don't believe that the killing was racially motivated, or indeed that there was a great deal of premeditation that went into the shooting, I believe that Zimmerman identified Martin as "up to no good" essentially because he was a young black male wearing a hoodie. Apart from his race and to some extent his attire, there has been nothing of substance offered to provide any basis for the belief that Martin looked suspicious.

    (2) Zimmerman didn't follow Martin to assault or shoot him and certainly did not explicitly decide to do so because of his race. He followed him because once he racially profiled Martin, he had decided that he was a criminal that it was his responsibility to bring to justice, or at least offer into the hands of the authorities.

    (3) Again, Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin because of his race. He shot him because once he racially profiled Martin and followed him, he confronted Martin and himself created a conflict out of his overzealous desire to be a cop, before shooting him in circumstances in which such a course of action was clearly unjustified and unnecessary. As recognised, it had already been determined that he was unfit to be a police officer and as Ian has already pointed out, unfit to own a gun.

    By and large, my assessment is that ultimately Martin was shot because Zimmerman was trying to do something he was profoundly unqualified to do. Zimmerman is no hate criminal, merely a garden variety racist in the same way that Jono is a garden variety racist. That said, the impact of this racism was ultimately quite devastating, as Zimmerman would have been quite unlikely in the circumstances to follow Martin were it not for his preconceived prejudices.

    One last point: It has been suggested of late that the investigating officers at the Sanford Police Department did actually want Zimmerman charged, but that this was circumvented at a very high level. It is further suggested that this may have more to do with the political connections of his father than any explicitly racist motivation.
    Last edited by Goughfather; 10-04-2012 at 11:59 PM.
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  3. #33
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    I can see what you find appealing in this author - he occupied the same paranoid headspace that you are so famous for on these fora. "Every one is out to get me and the white race" seems to be your common refrain of late.
    I didn't give Prenutsky enough time of day to consider whether he was paranoid or not but the patriotupdate.com site Jono linked to seemed to come from somewhere near Axiom territory.

    There has indeed been some very bad media form, especially by NBC with their use of editing in a way that sensationalised the story, but nearly all such cases of media sloppiness can be explained by the profit motive operating through 1. the desire to make stories more dramatic to increase ratings 2. the desire to expend as little time and effort for a given story outcome as possible.

    It's been commented that actually the Trayvon Martin case is exceptional because most of the time murder and missing person stories give disproportionate attention and hype to cases involving well-off young white females who are perceived to be attractive. Doubtless that's all just part of a media ageist, classist, sexist (against men), racist (against non-whites), appearance-based conspiracy operating in tandem with the racist one against non-blacks.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Except that it was probably "f***ing cold".
    Possibly, although it seems like a very odd thing to say when the minimum temperature in Salford that night was a fairly temperate 12°C (precipitation 5mm), and when the weather would seem to be utterly irrelevant to the conversation.

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Possibly, although it seems like a very odd thing to say when the minimum temperature in Salford that night was a fairly temperate 12°C (precipitation 5mm), and when the weather would seem to be utterly irrelevant to the conversation.
    To a Floridian, that's cold.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #36
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    I can see what you find appealing in this author - he occupies the same paranoid headspace that you are so famous for on these fora. "Every one is out to get me and the white race" seems to be your common refrain of late.
    Another dishonest straw man, typical of leftards. Yet it's a fact that black-on-white crime is much greater than white-on-black crime. Further, blacks have far more reason to fear being murdered by other blacks. See for example The Media Downplay Murder When It's Black-on-White and Black-on-Black by Larry Elder. (And before you squeal that Elder is a white racist, look at his picture!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    For a start, Zimmerman is 27 while the two offenders in this matter are "teenagers", precise age not specified.
    In the dark and being attacked, it hardly matters. Martin was much bigger than Zimmerman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Of course, while it cannot be denied that the Coon attack appears to be particularly nasty, further context would be helpful in the circumstances.
    Once again, where was similar caution in the Leftmedia in the Zimmerman v Martin case? The Coon attack is far more clear-cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Or not unless you actually look at what was said in the recording or look at Zimmerman's history of harrassing black people who were simply minding their own business.
    Did he? Well, he is a Dem, so it is possible given Dems' racist history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Of course, the idea that any racism against black people exists in contemporary America is an idea that a racist such as yourself seeks to deny at all costs.
    Yes, because America is now the most colour-blind country in the world, and welcomes all nationalities. That's why people choose to come here from all different parts of the world.

    But clearly, there is racism by blacks against white people. Just one more example: actor Samuel L. Jackson explicitly said that he voted for Obama “because he was black.” If a white actor said that he voted for McCain “because he was white,” the Leftmedia and GF would be shrieking about how racist America still is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    (1) While I don't believe that the killing was racially motivated, or indeed that there was a great deal of premeditation that went into the shooting, I believe that Zimmerman identified Martin as "up to no good" essentially because he was a young black male wearing a hoodie. Apart from his race and to some extent his attire, there has been nothing of substance offered to provide any basis for the belief that Martin looked suspicious.
    Yet even notorious Democratic race-baiter Jesse Jackson, in an unguarded moment, admitted:
    “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    (3) Again, Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin because of his race. He shot him because once he racially profiled Martin and followed him, he confronted Martin and himself created a conflict out of his overzealous desire to be a cop, before shooting him in circumstances in which such a course of action was clearly unjustified and unnecessary. As recognised, it had already been determined that he was unfit to be a police officer and as Ian has already pointed out, unfit to own a gun.
    Fine, even if you're right, that's all covered by existing laws, and has nothing to do with either the castle doctrine or stand your ground laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    One last point: It has been suggested of late that the investigating officers at the Sanford Police Department did actually want Zimmerman charged, but that this was circumvented at a very high level. It is further suggested that this may have more to do with the political connections of his father than any explicitly racist motivation.
    You mean his "white" father, as opposed to his Hispanic mother.

    GF is really a closet racist prone to projection, just like so many Democrats over here.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  7. #37
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    To a Floridian, that's cold.
    Not what it sounds like on that youtube recording, at least to me.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  8. #38
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner
    Not what it sounds like on that youtube recording, at least to me.
    Indeed. Quite revealingly, Zimmerman friend Joe Oliver didn't hear "cold" either. He thinks that the term "goon" could have been used, but in any event tries to suggest that "coon" is often used as a term of endearment:

    "People with guns don't understand. That's why they get guns. Too many misunderstandings." - Jerry Seinfeld, The Little Kicks

  9. #39
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Another dishonest straw man, typical of leftards.
    Evidently not, given the rest of your paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yet it's a fact that black-on-white crime is much greater than white-on-black crime. Further, blacks have far more reason to fear being murdered by other blacks. See for example The Media Downplay Murder When It's Black-on-White and Black-on-Black by Larry Elder.
    Do you have a point and if so what is it?

    Of course black on black crime is going to be greater than white on black, or black on white crime. The partners of black people will be predominantly other black people. The family members of black people are going to be other black people. More often black people are going to live in the same community and associate with black people at a greater rate than with white people. Given that most violence does not take place between strangers, but between those in intimate relationships (self-evidently much more often in the case of domestic violence), it is not at all surprising that the rates of black on black crime are going to be greater than white on black crime.

    I think your "point" is to demonise black people because that's what racists such as yourself love to do.

    (And before you squeal that Elder is a white racist, look at his picture!)
    I wasn't going to mention anything about Elder's argument. Your racism means that you seem to believe that an argument promulgated by a black person critical of black people is valid simply by virtue of the fact that the writer is himself black. I, on the other hand, believe that a crap argument is a crap argument, regardless of whether it is promoted by a black or a white person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    In the dark and being attacked, it hardly matters. Martin was much bigger than Zimmerman.
    Various figures have been given for the weights of the two individuals, but no sources have suggested that Martin was bigger than Zimmerman, much less "much bigger" than him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Once again, where was similar caution in the Leftmedia in the Zimmerman v Martin case? The Coon attack is far more clear-cut.
    It may be, but one wouldn't know so by the contemptible Prenutsky article. All he mentions is that the boys were "teenagers" and presents one of the quotes alleged to have been said by them. Further details would help me and they are lacking in Prenutsky's article.

    In contrast to that article, we have the 911 recording of Zimmerman, information about the movements of the two parties and information that the shooter was armed while the victim was not. This is not to say there is not further information to discover, but it is more information than Prenutsky gives me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yes, because America is now the most colour-blind country in the world, and welcomes all nationalities. That's why people choose to come here from all different parts of the world.
    Thank you for affirming my point. You are a racism denialist. No racism against black people exists in America and especially not in Georgia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    But clearly, there is racism by blacks against white people. Just one more example: actor Samuel L. Jackson explicitly said that he voted for Obama “because he was black.” If a white actor said that he voted for McCain “because he was white,” the Leftmedia and GF would be shrieking about how racist America still is.
    KB has explained before why a black person may find it politically advantageous or pragmatic to vote for a black person on this basis. On the other hand to attempt to justify voting for a white person because he is white on the same grounds would be quite bizarre, given that white people have never been a disadvantaged and under-represented constituency, must as Jono would like to portray them as the real victims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yet even notorious Democratic race-baiter Jesse Jackson, in an unguarded moment, admitted:
    “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
    By this response you seem to be suggesting that it is perfectly legitimate to view a black person as suspicious merely because he is black? I must say, it is deeply disturbing that you don't even make an attempt to conceal your racism these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Fine, even if you're right, that's all covered by existing laws, and has nothing to do with either the castle doctrine or stand your ground laws.
    The "Stand Your Ground" law is relevant here. There have been many suggestions, including from the Sanford Police that Zimmerman's conduct was legally justified under the "Stand Your Ground" law.

    Who pushed for the "Stand Your Ground" law? Why the NRA, of course. It is also worth pointing out that the rate of "legally justifiable homicides" has tripled since the passing of this law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    You mean his "white" father, as opposed to his Hispanic mother.

    GF is really a closet racist prone to projection, just like so many Democrats over here.
    I said nothing of the race of Zimmerman's father, let alone suggested that he was racist. You are the one consistently bringing up the race of a journalist, academic, activist, etc, in circumstances where their race is quite irrelevant.
    Last edited by Goughfather; 11-04-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Once again, where was similar caution in the Leftmedia in the Zimmerman v Martin case? The Coon attack is far more clear-cut.
    Is it? In the Martin case, the perpetrator (who certainly provoked the confrontation and who certainly shot Martin dead) is known and was released without charge. In the Goin attack, the perpetrators are not known (but are being sought by police). The Goin attack was publicised using an incorrect name and false photographs, and it is totally unclear to me which parts of the story are factual, and which are fabrication or embellishment.

  11. #41
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    Can Jono or anyone else find any primary sources for the Allen Coon/Goin case? I can only find secondary reports, blogs and commentary.

  12. #42
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Can Jono or anyone else find any primary sources for the Allen Coon/Goin case? I can only find secondary reports, blogs and commentary.
    Many of the blogs link to an incident report with names blacked out except those of the victim's father. Aside from that haven't seen anything.

    Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder, not before time. If he is indeed innocent and has a valid defence he will now be able to clear his name.

  13. #43
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Is it? In the Martin case, the perpetrator (who certainly provoked the confrontation and who certainly shot Martin dead)
    The only certainty is that Martin is dead. Zimmerman claimed that Martin attacked him viciously, which is consistent with Martin's record.

    It remains true that there is a lot more black-on-white violence that rates nary a mention. And blacks are far more likely to be killed by other blacks than by whites.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder, not before time.
    There is something fishy about any "special prosecutor". Looks like they succumbed to the mob. Another prosecutor said there was no case to charge, then this "special prosecutor" claims there is now enough for an extremely serious charge.

    Those who put out a bounty should also be arrested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    If he is indeed innocent and has a valid defence he will now be able to clear his name.
    One would hope so, but will the mobs that Sharpton and the New Black Panthers accept any verdict but guilty? If Zimmerman is guilty, then he should be thrown in jail.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  15. #45
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It remains true that there is a lot more black-on-white violence that rates nary a mention.
    Though it would rate a lot more mention if the "blacks" committing it were wannabe cops who then claimed self-defence and then took over a month to be charged.

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