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  1. #16
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damodevo
    I have a mild interest but I enjoy politics more. Do you have to be commenting more on chess to participate?
    No. The forum is for chess players, or those at least interested in chess in some way, and provides non-chess sections in recognition that chess players don't only talk with each other about chess and that chess players have a range of interests. We have had members in the past who have made nearly all their posts in the non-chess sections and there is no problem with that so long as the person has some actual interest in the game.

    People with no interest in chess at all who just want to engage with the politics or religion sections tend to become unwelcome pretty quickly (especially if they post 50+ posts a day!) although they can be entertaining for a little while, especially those who are obviously insane. Curiously those who do show up in this regard are virtually always either total nutters or else right-wingers; I can't yet recall any lefties doing so.

  2. #17
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damodevo
    Except that's not what he did. His statement had clear racial overtones; "...he'd look like Treyvon." Now what do you think that is supposed to mean? He clearly took the race angle.
    Not clear to me at all. The alternative I already mentioned is that he is expressing personal sympathy in a way that comes across more emotionally and directly to the usual robotic careful political pronouncements. Saying that he feels a personal connection because the victim physically could have been his own son is not necessarily the same as saying that the victim was killed for his race.

    It's also notable that Obama copped some flak from some black activists for being slow to respond to the matter at all, as if he was being too "white" (a common criticism). A comment like that can help send a signal that he has not lost interest in the welfare of the black community and still feels a degree of general skin-colour kinship - without necessarily saying that this was a racial killing.

    I do take his rather pointed call for an investigation into "every aspect" of the issue to indicate that he has an eye on the race possibility and that either:

    (i) he thinks it could have been a race killing and that that angle should not yet be ruled out, or
    (ii) he reckons it wasn't a race killing but wants to reassure those who thinks it may have been that that will be investigated.

    I don't take it as a statement that he himself is confident or certain it was a race killing.

    "Its possible this was a racially motivated attack but we don't know all the facts yet and so it would be irresponsible for me to comment"
    I think he might have copped more flak for explicitly stating the possibility of a race killing. No matter how cautiously it was worded he would be accused of playing the race card and couldn't deny that he raised the racial dimension.

    Instead he takes the divisive tact and he is one of the most divisive presidents in history (proving what a phony he was with all his bravado about being the first bipartisan president).
    In my view this is about half true. Many politicians make principled noises about governing for everyone when they are elected, and virtually none live up to them. But I think that the response to his presidency has been as divisive if not more so than the presidency itself - there is a remarkable degree of Obamaphobia on the right that radical leftists (who see him as a sellout) can only wonder about.

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  4. #19
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damodevo
    Again you're reporting something he didn't say.
    Actually you're the one who's been trying to tell us he "Sure has." stated that it is a racially motivated attack when he has not explicitly stated that at all, and it is debatable if he has even implied it. I'm pointing out some possible alternative meanings of what he actually said, and the difficulties in reading things into it.

    Why would he emphasize the looks of Treyvon if it had nothing to do with race?
    I've already explained other possible motives twice - and also drawn the distinction between a comment that merely refers to "race" in some way and a comment that actually alleges a racial motivation for the killing.

    This editorial puff piece from the LA Times sure knew what Obama meant. They are celebrating his playing the racial angle!
    Not in quite the way you had it. After all while they see his comments as relevant to the issue of racism they say "Obama did not judge anyone with his comments, did not label anyone."

    But reading those comments yet another possible interpretation occurs to me. It is possible to say that such a killing would be more likely to happen to a black person - by reason of circumstances or appearance-based assumptions (the whole "wearing a hoodie" thing and so on) even if the killer isn't actually a racist.

    (Incidentally, I think the LA Times is getting a bit carried away about just how much impact Obama's statement will have.)

  5. #20
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Regarding the Obama comments on the Treyvon shooting, I can't see that anything inappropriate was said. As Kevin has pointed out he was expressing comments of condolences and shock at the shooting and being in Florida at the moment I can tell you I it is huge in the media here. For Obama not to make a comment on the story might be considered strange.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    But I think that the response to his presidency has been as divisive if not more so than the presidency itself—there is a remarkable degree of Obamaphobia on the right
    Perhaps because he is the biggest spending president in history, the worst for sucking up to America's enemies, appointing unaccountable Tsars, signing Obamovcare forced through Congress without a single GOP vote (so much for bipartisanship), and his war on the church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    that radical leftists (who see him as a sellout) can only wonder about.
    Ah, but Obamov has promised Medvedev that things will be different if he get another term, because then he won't have to worry about re-election and can go hard left as per his ideology.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  7. #22
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    And the big issue here to me is not that the law allows for killing in self-defence, but that we have a case where there is only an unsubstantiated (to this stage) claim of self-defence and yet the killer gets the benefit of the doubt without even a legal process to test his claim.
    Not as bad as the Black Panthers who have put a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman, a Hispanic and registered Democrat. If Obamov wants to say something useful, he should condemn this lynch-mob mentality against someone who has not even been arrested, let alone tried and convicted. This has already led to an elderly couple forced out of home after a tweet falsely claimed that Zimmerman lived there, although there was no connection.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  8. #23
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    appointing unaccountable Tsars
    Except of course that Ronald Reagan was the first president to appoint "unaccountable Tsars" ...
    "People with guns don't understand. That's why they get guns. Too many misunderstandings." - Jerry Seinfeld, The Little Kicks

  9. #24
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Firstly that is actually the "New Black Panthers", who have appropriated the logo and name of the original BPP but are denounced as illegitimate by its veterans.

    Secondly while the NBP are silly extremist thugs who deserve to be arrested for incitement (assuming it is even a crime where they are) it could well be counter-productive for the President to get involved in condemning them thus giving them and their offer publicity they certainly don't deserve. (The NBP Chief of Staff was in fact arrested, over unrelated firearms charges that much of the US Right probably doesn't even believe should be law, but that's another story ... )

    Thirdly, responding to an example of apparent injustice by trying (and in this case failing) to find a worse example from the responding lunatic fringe isn't exactly effective.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    People with no interest in chess at all who just want to engage with the politics or religion sections tend to become unwelcome pretty quickly (especially if they post 50+ posts a day!) although they can be entertaining for a little while, especially those who are obviously insane. Curiously those who do show up in this regard are virtually always either total nutters or else right-wingers; I can't yet recall any lefties doing so.
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  11. #26
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Like Joker?
    Certainly a leftie but didn't fit my description of a poster "with no interest in chess at all". Although the great majority of his posts were non-chess he did have some actual interest in following the game. A bit over 2% of his output was on chess threads.

  12. #27
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    Obama made it absolutely clear at the outset that he was limited in what he should say given the fact that the investigation was continuing, essentially the opposite of your accusation. Whatever the truth of this situation, it is a tragedy and there is nothing unreasonable in Obama suggesting this.
    Oh really? Burt Prelutsky argues:
    Just in terms of public relations, wouldn't it have been a good idea for Obama to have spoken a few well-chosen words after the 13-year-old white kid, Allen Coon, in Kansas City, was recently doused in gasoline and set on fire while the two black teenagers hollered, "You get what you deserve, white boy!"?
    What if Romney had said something like "he looks rather like one of my sons did when he was younger".

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    For what it's worth, I think there is fairly good evidence to suggest that Zimmerman is a racist
    Not unless you count the fact that he's a registered member of the party of slavery, KKK, segregation, and Jim Crow laws, i.e. GF's favorite American political party, the Democrats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    (he indicates that "they always get away" and later mutters the phrase "f***ing coons" which is apparently a reference to Martin),
    Except that it was probably "f***ing cold". This is only one of many Leftmedia lies to incite racial hatred.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 10-04-2012 at 01:49 PM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Oh really? Burt Prelutsky argues:
    Just in terms of public relations, wouldn't it have been a good idea for Obama to have spoken a few well-chosen words after the 13-year-old white kid, Allen Coon, in Kansas City, was recently doused in gasoline and set on fire while the two black teenagers hollered, "You get what you deserve, white boy!"?
    The facts in that case are pretty unclear. For example, it appears that the victim is "Allen Goin", not "Allen Coon", that the Facebook group "Justice for Allen Coon" (from which the blogosphere appears to got most of its misinformation) has been using a faked photo of the victim, and that the police are not yet investigating it as a hate crime (though that has not been ruled out).

    It's a bit tricky finding information about it, since most web hits are right wing bloggers wailing about double standards.

    Both crimes are tragic, but we shouldn't jump to race-motivated conclusions in either case.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    This Burt Prelutsky is a particularly charming piece of work:

    Quote Originally Posted by Burt Prelutsky
    Isn't it odd that neither Sharpton nor Jackson thought it was worth their time to fly off to Kansas City and admonish the black community to shape up, and to urge the KCPD to arrest those young sadists and send them away for a long stretch? Instead, we had Al Sharpton leading a demonstration, during which he said, and I quote, "Don't talk to us like we stupid. Don't talk to us like we ignit." He garnered loud cheers from a crowd of black Floridians, who clearly speak his language, even if nobody else does. He went on to say, "We love our children like you love yours." Well, not exactly, Reverend Al. Not when three out of four black babies are born to unmarried women.

  15. #30
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    This Burt Prelutsky is a particularly charming piece of work:
    Especially for someone who wants to call others racists. He also can't tell the difference between a Black Panther and a so-called New Black Panther - it's important to get that sort of stuff right.

    As for the "public relations" question there was no national public relations issue in the Goin/Coon case, not because the victim was white but because the police acted. The public outcry re Martin resulted from a combination of a possibly racially motivated killing and a possibly racially motivated decision not to charge the killer. In my current view, probably neither the killing nor the non-charging were racially motivated but the case is still concerning.

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