Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 60
  1. #1
    CC FIDE Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    509

    Smile NSWCA Ryde Eastwood Weekender

    Hi Everyone,
    This link is to make a public apology to all the players who played at Ryde Eastwood Weekender during the long weekend. I had a very poor weekend as a DOP, and many mistakes I am still very unhappy with. My decision not to change the round 6 pairings was the worst of quite a few errors, with many players on the top boards being effected.

    Special apologies must extend to FM Greg Canfell, Brian Fitzpatrick and Milan Grcic who worse the worst effected.

    It was a learning experience, and I will endevaour to do a better job next time.
    Lee Forace

    Forace´s Legacy - Swap off when you are down.

    It's better to set goals that one cannot acheive than to settle for mediocrity.

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    5,047
    Quote Originally Posted by Liberaci
    This link is to make a public apology . . . .
    Yo Leeeee mann!!! How's things dude?

    We forgive for your DOP mistakes man. But we cannot forgive you for posting the thread in the wrong forum.

    AR

  3. #3
    Account Shoutbox Banned antichrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,896
    Quote Originally Posted by Liberaci
    Hi Everyone,
    This link is to make a public apology to all the players who played at Ryde Eastwood Weekender during the long weekend. I had a very poor weekend as a DOP, and many mistakes I am still very unhappy with. My decision not to change the round 6 pairings was the worst of quite a few errors, with many players on the top boards being effected.

    Special apologies must extend to FM Greg Canfell, Brian Fitzpatrick and Milan Grcic who worse the worst effected.

    It was a learning experience, and I will endevaour to do a better job next time.
    Lee,
    Was the draw done by computer (of course)?

  4. #4
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    17,058
    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Lee,
    Was the draw done by computer (of course)?
    Yes it was.

  5. #5
    CC FIDE Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    509

    Ryde Weekender

    To answer Peter's question,
    the pairings were done with Swiss Perfect, but I didn't check them before making them public, and George Xie had rung me to ask for the pairings, which I gave him. In the morning I was informed that the pairings were wrong (which they were) but the dillemma was: do I change them, though they were wrong. I decided not to change them, which was a mistake.
    Lee Forace

    Forace´s Legacy - Swap off when you are down.

    It's better to set goals that one cannot acheive than to settle for mediocrity.

  6. #6
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    2,701
    So it was the computer doing them wrong - rather than you? One of the bad pairings that SP does from time to time, in its pursuit of colour balance?

  7. #7
    CC Candidate Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    430
    Hi there. Cathy here.

    I wasn't at the event which Lee arbited so I don't know how bad his mistakes really were. However, I would like to congratulate Lee for his public apology. I think one of the most important qualities to make a good arbiter is the ability to admit your mistakes rather than brazening it out and trying to justify bad decisions.
    Cathy

  8. #8
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    40,358
    Quote Originally Posted by Liberaci
    To answer Peter's question, the pairings were done with Swiss Perfect, but I didn't check them before making them public, and George Xie had rung me to ask for the pairings, which I gave him. In the morning I was informed that the pairings were wrong (which they were) but the dillemma was: do I change them, though they were wrong. I decided not to change them, which was a mistake.
    Actually all you did wrong was make the draw public before it had been thoroughly checked. I had this exact problem a few years ago and there is actually a pairing regulation which says:

    F6. A pairing officially made public shall not be changed unless it violates the absolute pairing criteria (B1 and B2).

    I think that if you tell a player they are definitely playing another then that's equivalent to making the draw public, and you shouldn't change the draw after that unless you can do so without changing that board.

    (B1 and B2, when not chasing teddybears, state:

    B1(a) two players shall not meet more than once,
    (b) a player who has received a point on bye or forfeit shall not receive a bye
    B2(a) no player's colour difference will be >+2 or <-2
    (b) that no player will get the same colour three times in a row. )

    The case where I made the same mistake of declaring a computer pairing final when it was wrong was rather nasty as it upfloated a midfield player to play one of the co-leaders who thereby finished =1st in the event. We did implore him to accept a change of draw but he stuck to his guns (as he was entitled to do) and we had to go with the defective draw because of rule F6.

    We have since dealt with F6 by declaring that in all TCA events all swiss draws made public are considered provisional and unofficial draws only until 10 minutes before the next round, and the DOP cannot override this declaration. Crude but effective.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 13-10-2004 at 11:13 PM.
    Moderation Requests: All requests for, comments about, or questions about moderation of any kind including thread changes must be posted in the Help and Feedback section and not on the thread in question. (Or by private message for routine changes or sensitive matters.)

    ACF Newsletter Information - All Australian players and administrators should subscribe and check each issue for relevant notices

    My psephology/politics site (token chess references only) : http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/ Politics twitter feed https://twitter.com/kevinbonham

  9. #9
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wynyard,Tas
    Posts
    2,424
    I think it's a good habit to always say when advising someone of their expected next round opponent that it is not definite. You can either just say that or explain why in detail, depending how much spare time you have. To commit to a draw is unnecessarily restricting yourself, especially where it allows someone to lock in a relatively soft game.

    The alternative is to refuse to answer. I think this is not a good look - it's officious and even childish ("I've got a secret and I won't tell"), and also gives an advantage to those who know the pairing rules and can work it out themselves.

    In ACT club tournaments the next draw is normally circulated by e-mail as a matter of course without people asking, but as Canberra is a city of public servants who are aware of F6, always stating the proviso that it is provisional and subject to change.

  10. #10
    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    2,701
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Rogers
    Hi there. Cathy here.

    I wasn't at the event which Lee arbited so I don't know how bad his mistakes really were. However, I would like to congratulate Lee for his public apology. I think one of the most important qualities to make a good arbiter is the ability to admit your mistakes rather than brazening it out and trying to justify bad decisions.
    Cathy
    I agree with this - I think Lee is trying very hard to be a good DOP and shouldn't worry about it too much. He was very depressed about the tournament on the Monday and as I said to him then, you can't keep everyone happy. He had got himself into a situation where he was going to annoy someone and sometimes you just have to live with it. It was all good experience and he will now have strategies to deal with a similar situation.

    There were a number of very little errors, the major one was the pairing problem. I think Gareth might have been affected, as I was told he shouldn't have been playing Michael. However Gareth didn't care - he likes playing Michael. Gareth won their last encounter, so it was time for Michael to exact his revenge.

  11. #11
    CC FIDE Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    509

    Ryde Weekender

    Hi Everyone,
    Just to clarify a few points. The pairings that were made didn't violate the 2 fundimental pairing rules, being that players can't be paired twice or recieve 3 of the same colour in a row (when the last round isn't the last round).
    On the pairings and Swiss Perfect. Swiss Perfect is just a tool, it's the DOP who does the pairings.
    Finally I'd like to thank Jenni, who spent much on Monday trying to cheer me up, and Cathy whose advice as a long time IA is always useful.
    Lee Forace

    Forace´s Legacy - Swap off when you are down.

    It's better to set goals that one cannot acheive than to settle for mediocrity.

  12. #12
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    17,058
    Personally I dont think Lee should be too hard on himself.
    In fact having had a close look at the SP files I dont think the Swiss Perfect draw for round 6 was actually incorrect.

    After 5 rounds Xie was on 5 points with an absolute color preference of black due to having had white in the previous two rounds.
    There were 9 players following on 4 points.
    Although Greg Canfell had an absolute color preference of white due to having had black in the previous two rounds he also had upfloated in round 4 when with 2.5 points he played Junta Ikeda on 3 points.
    Bolens the next highest available player also had an absolue color preference of white, however Bolens had upfloated in the 5th round when he on 3 points played Alex Mendes da Costa on 3.5.

    The FIDE rules will not allow for the pairing of Xie against Canfell or Bolens unless absolutely necessary under the rules (mainly due to other pairings of players on 4 points violating B1 or B2). As such the pairings generated by SP would in fact be the same pairings generated by an arbiter doing the pairings manually if they followed the FIDE rules.

    Based on my reading and understanding of the FIDE Swiss Rules although the pairings generated by Sp may appear wrong to the casual observer they are in fact correct according to the FIDE rules.

  13. #13
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,074
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Personally I dont think Lee should be too hard on himself.
    In fact having had a close look at the SP files I dont think the Swiss Perfect draw for round 6 was actually incorrect.
    Lee sounds pretty sure Bill. Can someone tell us what Charles Z thinks about this? Could he not have perhaps been the person to inform Lee that the draw was wrong in the first place?

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    13,310
    Lee, Bill someone, can you send me the sp files for this tournament at ggrayggray@hotmail.com.

    Cheers,

    Garvin Gray
    2004 Grand Prix Co- Ordinator.

  15. #15
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    17,058
    Quote Originally Posted by garethbcharles
    Lee sounds pretty sure Bill.
    I had spoken to Lee on the phone about it my view.
    He had not as far as I can tell actually tried doing the draw manually but had just accepted the conventional view espoused by some that the draw was wrong given at a glance that Canfell could have played Xie.
    Based on the FIDE Swiss rules this belief is actually incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by garethbcharles
    Can someone tell us what Charles Z thinks about this? Could he not have perhaps been the person to inform Lee that the draw was wrong in the first place?
    I dont think Charles has offered an opinion but I believe he would agree with me.

    As I said I believe Lee just took some peoples belief that the draw must be wrong as a given because on appearance that appears to be the case.

    I'm sure Lee will clarify the above when next he posts.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Ryde Eastwood Open
    By News Bot in forum Chess Australia
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 29-09-2004, 12:02 PM
  2. NSWCA Anzac Day Weekender
    By arosar in forum Completed Tournaments
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 25-06-2004, 10:50 AM
  3. NSWCA May Weekender
    By Bill Gletsos in forum Completed Tournaments
    Replies: 146
    Last Post: 01-06-2004, 09:29 AM
  4. NSWCA Anzac Day Weekender
    By arosar in forum Games and Analysis
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 28-04-2004, 09:11 AM
  5. NSWCA - 2004 Australia Day Weekender
    By arosar in forum Completed Tournaments
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: 28-01-2004, 07:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •