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  1. #46
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    A slight correction to my post #41. The Minutes show that Bob Gibbons was appointed Auditor. But that is for the future.

    The minutes also incorrectly say that the ACF has not paid its dues for 2011. The ACF owes nothing for 2011 as it was not a member in 2011. It is not a member in 2012 either.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  2. #47
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    A slight correction to my post #41. The Minutes show that Bob Gibbons was appointed Auditor. But that is for the future.

    The minutes also incorrectly say that the ACF has not paid its dues for 2011. The ACF owes nothing for 2011 as it was not a member in 2011. It is not a member in 2012 either.

    DJ
    if big brother FIDE tells ACF that Austalia is a member will you keep the purse locked? NSWCA certainly jumped last time that FIDE was brought into the picture.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  3. #48
    CC Candidate Master heligan's Avatar
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    Queenstown meeting

    My understanding (having talked to more than one of the participants) is that the meeting in Queenstown was very conciliatory towards Australia - as Keong has already said. I wonder, if the Minutes as published are a final approved version or just a draft? There is certainly no wish on the part of the kiwis to alienate the ozzies...

  4. #49
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heligan
    My understanding (having talked to more than one of the participants) is that the meeting in Queenstown was very conciliatory towards Australia - as Keong has already said. I wonder, if the Minutes as published are a final approved version or just a draft? There is certainly no wish on the part of the kiwis to alienate the ozzies...
    Aus may have no choice to participate even with Brian as president, with long term view of replacing him when opportunity opens. Also do same with constitution.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  5. #50
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heligan
    My understanding (having talked to more than one of the participants) is that the meeting in Queenstown was very conciliatory towards Australia - as Keong has already said. I wonder, if the Minutes as published are a final approved version or just a draft? There is certainly no wish on the part of the kiwis to alienate the ozzies...
    Certainly what Keong has told us is much more informative than what is to be found in the Minutes and also gives a different picture as you say. What Brian is now saying to us is quite the opposite - perhaps he speaks with forked tongue.

    I am not suggesting any antagonism on NZ's part nor is there any on my part towards NZ..

    As for AC's latest effort, there is no suggestion of replacing Brian. It's just that he seems to be quite out of his depth when trying to be involved in chess administration rather than event organisation at which he is very good, I believe.

    As a result the constitutional basics of the OCC are a considerable mess and its ability to function properly is questionable at best. He would benefit from advice from someone who knows the basics. I've given him some (from a long history of organisational administration and administrative law) but he has rejected it. Keong's statement that it was said that the constitutional changes were suggested to meet some of the ACF's concerns is interesting because in fact the changes make the position worse, not better. You can't dragoon a body into another one without its consent. That applies to all the federations of Oceania. Moreover, it's a silly way to go about things just from a commonsense point of view.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  6. #51
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    FIDE have declared that Australia is part of Oceania
    FIDE have declared that Australia is part of the Oceania Zone.

    FIDE have not declared that Australia is part of the OCC.

    The two are different.

    but ACF wants to huff and puff and to dominate everythng instead of being a team player
    We are more than happy to be team players when there are satisfactory rules by which the game is to be played.

    At the moment what there is is a constitutional trainwreck waiting to happen and at least we can say we had the sense to stay off the track.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 06-03-2012 at 08:12 PM.

  7. #52
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heligan
    There is certainly no wish on the part of the kiwis to alienate the ozzies...
    We appreciate that and I also received a message praising our draft from a representative from another Oceania nation.

    It seems that the only people who want to alienate the Ozzies from the OCC are the Ozzies already on it.

  8. #53
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    ......We are more than happy to be team players when there are satisfactory rules by which the game is to be played. At the moment what there is is a constitutional trainwreck waiting to happen and at least we can say we had the sense to stay off the track.
    As the President of FIDE Zone 3.6 (Oceania), it was my decision to operate through a formal organisation - the Oceania Chess Confederation (OCC) - with a bank account, statutes, ethical guidelines and regulations.

    New Zealand, Fiji, Guam, Palau, PNG and Solomon Islands are OCC members and have been represented at meetings which adopted the statutes and made other decisions.

    Australia has stayed aloof. It has not yet agreed to membership, has not sent anybody official to OCC meetings and has not yet submitted any formal proposals to change statutes or regulations.

    Whilst some ACF officials might say they are team players, they have made very little effort in the past eighteen months to do so in practical terms.

    On the one hand, OCC has adopted statutes and is willing to change them if the majority of members agree.

    On the other hand, ACF does not want to join OCC or propose any changes formally.

    So we have an impasse?

    The OCC President is in office until October 2014 when a new Zone President will be elected in Tromso. The ACF President and Executive are in office until the AGM (probably at Norths Sydney) in January 2013.

    Maybe we have to wait until one or the other stands down? Unless somebody has the skills to solve the chess puzzle before then?

  9. #54
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    Australia has stayed aloof. It has not yet agreed to membership, has not sent anybody official to OCC meetings
    Actually we sent an official representative to the so-called inaugural meetings of the OCC but he was explicitly not empowered to commit us to membership.

    and has not yet submitted any formal proposals to change statutes or regulations.
    It seems now that there is no point in the ACF officially doing so since you state that the OCC does not accept the concerns put to it by Denis and me. That is, assuming that statement by you is correct. If that statement is correct then the fact that the proposal was an informal one from ACF Exec members rather than a formalised ACF position is immaterial since the OCC is clearly not willing to change its statutes in a way that will encourage the ACF to take an interest and join.

    As for the proposals we sent, were they discussed or even tabled at the meeting at all? Was any motion moved concerning them? Was any proposal to adopt any of them defeated? If there was discussion, why is it not minuted that this occurred? If there was not discussion, how do we know the OCC doesn't accept the concerns?

  10. #55
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    As for the proposals we sent, were they discussed or even tabled at the meeting at all? Was any motion moved concerning them? Was any proposal to adopt any of them defeated? If there was discussion, why is it not minuted that this occurred? If there was not discussion, how do we know the OCC doesn't accept the concerns?
    The email and attachment you sent were received by me in Queenstown (via Paul Spiller and the Millenium Hotel office) on the day preceding the OCC Meeting.


    ************************************************** ************************************************** **********************************
    [email removed - published without sender's permission -KB]

    ************************************************** ************************************************** *****************************************

    Receipt of the email and attachment was noted at the OCC Meeting but was not able to be considered properly because it was submitted very late and with no official ACF standing.

    I look forward to receiving a timely official response from the ACF in due course.

    My comment about the relevance of ACF concerns was in reference to the OCC statutes now clearly stating the automatic membership procedures, that OCC Executive members are appointed by me (they are not elected!), are legally absolved by me (as the Official of FIDE) and that appeals against OCC decisions can be referred to FIDE.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 07-03-2012 at 08:21 PM.

  11. #56
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    [removed-KB]
    What does KB mean ""it does not make them members anyway""? Just like we are Australian by birth whether we apply for it or not.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 07-03-2012 at 08:41 PM.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  12. #57
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Brian

    As I see it you are doing next to nothing about attempting a sensible resolution of this matter. Trying now to take the line that everything must be official before you will do anything is merely an excuse for doing nothing. It is also a bit of a joke coming from one who is running such a ragbag organisation as the OCC.

    Let me remind you of the unaudited annual accounts in contravention of the Statutes.

    I remind you also that the so-called AGM of the OCC is no such thing as there is no provision in the OCC Constitution for an Annual General Meeting of the body. That, combined with Minutes that may not accurately reflect the proceedings, gives support to what I have already said in posts above.

    As for your suggestions about who might step down, you may do so if you wish at any time.

    But your observations about the ACF are somewhat awry. Even in the highly unlikely event of the whole Executive being replaced in 2013, it is still likely that the ACF would not support Australian membership of the OCC as there is no indication from anyone on the Council or, I think at the National Conference (unless you are there) that we should join as things stand at present.

    I have done all that I can do to point out to you what the deficiencies in the OCC are. You have rejected my observations out-of-hand. If that is your attitude, to hell with you. There can be no resolution of this matter if you maintain an intransigent, uniformed and pig headed attitude. Some attempt to win friends rather than alienate potential supporters would reveal your human side, though I appreciate that subtlety and a sense of humour are not your strongest points.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  13. #58
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Denis, if you wish to continue making personal attacks against me, I suggest you send emails to brian@chessaustralia.com.au rather than continue to state your case on a public bulletin board where your flawed logic is there for all the world to see.

  14. #59
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    Denis, if you wish to continue making personal attacks against me, I suggest you send emails to brian@chessaustralia.com.au rather than continue to state your case on a public bulletin board where your flawed logic is there for all the world to see.
    Brian, a lot of matters above raised by Denis are not personal but are related to how an organisation obtains it authority and under what rules and regulations it is administered. If the safeguards that Denis mentions are not there, it is wise to include them even if not required by FIDE or OCC. They are common sense and a tried and proven method of doing things properly when it comes to public monies and accountability.

    There are many model constitutions around that could be adopted with very little trouble. You may carry out some such procedures but they must have the required authority. That way everything is above board, set in concrete and transparent - everyone can see at every state that everything is done properly.

    I am sure that many bods are putting their hand up to assist, give a yell if not the case and they will come out of the woodwork.

    You have ahd such wonderful success with SIO keep it up with OCC by crossing your Ts and dotting your Is
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  15. #60
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    Denis, if you wish to continue making personal attacks against me, I suggest you send emails to brian@chessaustralia.com.au rather than continue to state your case on a public bulletin board where your flawed logic is there for all the world to see.
    I have no intention of having anything to do with you while you maintain your current attitude. If you think my comments have been personal attacks, you are feigning a thin-skinned state that history suggests you don't have as well as failing to take account of the substance of what I say. As for flawed logic, I have yet to hear anything from you that substantiates that claim or, for that matter anything of substance from you addressing the issues raised by the ACF. If you could point out any flaws I'd be glad to consider them.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

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