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  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keong Ang
    It is not just the ACF that has reservations!

    For all we know, the minutes from OCC Queenstown won't be written until shortly before the next OCC AGM. It could wait for that long...
    This is news to me. But your statement about uncertainty about membership of other federations is not. One of the points I made in my paper for the ACF was that the OCC Statutes said that any national federation in the Oceania Zone is considered to be a member of the OCC. But that was all that was said about membership. Such a provision is not adequate to make a federation a member, so, unless federations have taken some other step to join, they aren't members. It's hard to see how they could do that as there is no procedure in the Statutes for applying for membership.

    As regards Phil Viner, his attendance was only in a private capacity as far as I am aware. The ACF had resolved that an Executive member should attend as an observer only but it turned out that none of the Executive was available.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  2. #32
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keong Ang
    I do wonder whether it is legitimate for minutes to be distributed to parties that are not OCC members.
    That is for the OCC to decide but it is obviously not illegal for them to send the minutes to us should they choose to do so! Of course, they could choose not to tell us what went on but that would hardly encourage us to join in any hurry. It would also be rather funny given that the current OCC President has for years complained of the ACF being supposedly a "secret society"; now where is the OCC's hurry to disclose what went on at its meetings?

    I can say that as an observer I was wondering why the people at the meeting seem to be performing diplomatic acrobatics in determining whether a federation is a member or not.
    Some discussion about AUS being a founding member, and yet not a member due to not having joined!
    This is all a consequence of the OCC never having been properly founded. What should have happened is that at the first meeting of the OCC a motion should have been passed in which empowered representatives from those wishing to found the OCC all resolved that they would do so. But this did not happen. There was no proper foundation and hence there are no true founding members. It might be argued that NZ, Fiji and PNG are tacitly founding members in retrospect, in some informal sense, since they were there at the start and appear to accept that they are members, of an organisation which is accepted as existing by FIDE.

    For the non-aussie based people in the room, it seems like an issue simply because the OCC president is AUS.
    Now that is a dimension of it I had not considered before.

    There is also the feeling that the OCC is to further develop chess in Oceania so that the Oceania Zone can graduate into a full continental zone instead of continuing as an Asian sub-zone.
    Regional development is a worthy goal but I think Oceania should worry about being strong enough to be even a legitimate subzone first!

    Thanks for the comments, they were interesting.

  3. #33
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Please would the admins review this thread and place in an appropriate section. Not "Australian Chess History". Maybe a new general section for Oceania Chess with potential for sub-threads?

  4. #34
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    Please would the admins review this thread and place in an appropriate section. Not "Australian Chess History". Maybe a new general section for Oceania Chess with potential for sub-threads?
    This is under consideration. [EDIT: done, on a trial basis]
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 05-03-2012 at 08:44 AM.

  5. #35
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Various reports presented at the OCC Annual meeting in Queenstown New Zealand in January 2012 can be found at

    http://www.oceaniachess.com/?a=history

    Minutes will be added shortly.

  6. #36
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keong Ang
    Apologies for going off topic.

    I did observe the OCC AGM at Queenstown.
    Lots of amendments that were requested by AUS were put through.
    Not according to the Minutes. The Minutes (http://www.oceaniachess.com/media/ma...nutes_2012.pdf) note only four amendments, none of which satisfies the main concerns held by the ACF exec, and the first of which directly contradicts them.

    Doesn't look like the OCC really wants us to join it any time soon based on that. Apparently if we go without paying long enough we can get our membership temporarily suspended even though our membership does not exist in the first place.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 05-03-2012 at 09:47 PM.

  7. #37
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Brian, is it possible for the Oceania islands to time their big tourneys in succession in a logical geographical order so one island hop in one direction and not in circles.? I know it is expecting miracles. It should benefit all their tourneys with more OS players and title chances and prize money.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  8. #38
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Brian, is it possible for the Oceania islands to time their big tourneys in succession in a logical geographical order so one island hop in one direction and not in circles.? I know it is expecting miracles. It should benefit all their tourneys with more OS players and title chances and prize money.
    No.

  9. #39
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Not according to the Minutes. The Minutes (http://www.oceaniachess.com/media/ma...nutes_2012.pdf) note only four amendments, none of which satisfies the main concerns held by the ACF exec, and the first of which directly contradicts them.

    Doesn't look like the OCC really wants us to join it any time soon based on that. Apparently if we go without paying long enough we can get our membership temporarily suspended even though our membership does not exist in the first place.
    The OCC has received no formal requests from the ACF and, in any case, does not accept the ACF concerns we have seen in documents sent to me informally by Kevin Bonham and Denis Jessop.

    So life goes on without support from ACF.

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    No.
    well they are not after too many customers are they - how will get top players to attend if only for one comp. They could pool their resources to subsidise a few top players from Philippines for example would be terrific.

    Or ethnic Indians in Oceania would sponsor a GM from India if combined resources.

    Otherwise they will only get the Jones family.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  11. #41
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    The OCC has received no formal requests from the ACF and, in any case, does not accept the ACF concerns we have seen in documents sent to me informally by Kevin Bonham and Denis Jessop.

    So life goes on without support from ACF.

    Brian If you don't accept those concerns you are plain stupid and need to get advice from a good source. The way you are behaving over this matter is such that your pig headedness has alienated people who might otherwise have supported you.

    I see also that the accounts presented to the AGM were not audited as required by the Statutes and that that was not noted in the minutes. Do you even have an auditor? If you have I'd be surprised if he or she were willing to certify that those accounts present a true and fair view of the financial affairs of the OCC.

    On another tack, who is supplying the equipment for all these Oceania events? I note that ACE, your business, gave equipment to New Caledonia for its tournament last year. What has happened to your once loudly proclaimed opposition to conflicts of interest? That action clearly seems to be a case of your using your position as Oceania President to the benefit of your business by promoting your business to the New Caledonians by way of gifts. That may be in the best FIDE tradition of Kirsan's vote buying but isn't legally justifiable or morally honourable.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  12. #42
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    Brian..................

    On another tack, who is supplying the equipment for all these Oceania events? I note that ACE, your business, gave equipment to New Caledonia for its tournament last year. What has happened to your once loudly proclaimed opposition to conflicts of interest? That action clearly seems to be a case of your using your position as Oceania President to the benefit of your business by promoting your business to the New Caledonians by way of gifts. That may be in the best FIDE tradition of Kirsan's vote buying but isn't legally justifiable or morally honourable.

    DJ
    That is a bit over the top isn't it Denis. To draw an analogy, because almost every politician accepts free trips to Israel via the Israel Friendship Society are you suggesting there is a conflict of interest? Both sides of parliament don't seem to think so.

    Aussie parliamentarians with all their perks don't need free trips, but Oceania chess clubs starting off could well appreciate free equipment. Indeed, that was one of my problems in kicking Sydney CBD club was the hassle of getting equipment all the time. The same with the SEC, NSWCA took about 25 mins debating the issue to loan me equipment.

    IF they do purchase from Brian ACE and prices are reasonable I have nothing against. At least he is putting the hard yards in getting the thing set up.

    If only he would co-ordinate their big tourneys so one could do one tour of the whole area - but then again KB stated he was not good at fine detail.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  13. #43
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    That is a bit over the top isn't it Denis. To draw an analogy, because almost every politician accepts free trips to Israel via the Israel Friendship Society are you suggesting there is a conflict of interest? Both sides of parliament don't seem to think so.

    Aussie parliamentarians with all their perks don't need free trips, but Oceania chess clubs starting off could well appreciate free equipment. Indeed, that was one of my problems in kicking Sydney CBD club was the hassle of getting equipment all the time. The same with the SEC, NSWCA took about 25 mins debating the issue to loan me equipment.

    IF they do purchase from Brian ACE and prices are reasonable I have nothing against. At least he is putting the hard yards in getting the thing set up.

    If only he would co-ordinate their big tourneys so one could do one tour of the whole area - but then again KB stated he was not good at fine detail.
    AC you have completely missed the point. Moreover your analogy is a false analogy. Never argue by analogy unless you know what you are talking about.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    AC you have completely missed the point. Moreover your analogy is a false analogy. Never argue by analogy unless you know what you are talking about.

    DJ
    FIDE have declared that Australia is part of Oceania but ACF wants to huff and puff and to dominate everythng instead of being a team player, the position that New Zealand has adopted.

    Only this week Bob Carr announced he is going to NZ first to learn how to operate with Oceania countries in an appropriate manner - before he is even sworn in I believe. Another beaut analogy.

    ACF may or may not like how Brian and rest of Oceania things are going but they have no choice but to be involved and constructive.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  15. #45
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    FIDE have declared that Australia is part of Oceania but ACF wants to huff and puff and to dominate everythng instead of being a team player, the position that New Zealand has adopted.

    Only this week Bob Carr announced he is going to NZ first to learn how to operate with Oceania countries in an appropriate manner - before he is even sworn in I believe. Another beaut analogy.

    ACF may or may not like how Brian and rest of Oceania things are going but they have no choice but to be involved and constructive.
    You are doing much irrelevant huffing and puffing yourself to hide your total lack of understanding of the issues.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

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