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  1. #16
    CC Grandmaster Tony Dowden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    The idea of converting Melanesians to chess is likely to have little better chance, if any, than converting them to Christianity as undertaken by missionaries of various Christian sects in the 19th Century contrary to their custom.
    In this case chess has a rosy future in Oceania - say 200-300 GMs within the next 10 years or so?
    Fischer visiting Tal in hospital - Curaçao 1962

    "You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one." - Mikhail Tal
    "Best by test" (on 1.e4) - Bobby Fischer

  2. #17
    CC Grandmaster Tony Dowden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dowden
    In this case chess has a rosy future in Oceania - say 200-300 GMs within the next 10 years or so?
    Surely you exaggerate?
    Fischer visiting Tal in hospital - Curaçao 1962

    "You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one." - Mikhail Tal
    "Best by test" (on 1.e4) - Bobby Fischer

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster Tony Dowden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dowden
    Surely you exaggerate?
    Yes and no. Just a little hyperbole with dash of irony ...
    Fischer visiting Tal in hospital - Curaçao 1962

    "You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one." - Mikhail Tal
    "Best by test" (on 1.e4) - Bobby Fischer

  4. #19
    CC Grandmaster Tony Dowden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dowden
    Yes and no. Just a little hyperbole with dash of irony ...
    ... anyone who has been to a church in the South Pacific will understand
    Fischer visiting Tal in hospital - Curaçao 1962

    "You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one." - Mikhail Tal
    "Best by test" (on 1.e4) - Bobby Fischer

  5. #20
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Tony they do say that talking to yourself is the first sign of madness. But I don't believe it for a moment (as I do it myself).

    And, yes, I know what you are saying and agree!
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly arbiter at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

    Favorite movie line: Girl friend Cathy to Jack Ryan in "Sum of all Fears". "What kind of emergency does an historian have?".

  6. #21
    CC International Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dowden
    In this case chess has a rosy future in Oceania - say 200-300 GMs within the next 10 years or so?
    In Russia they estimated that it costs about 1 mln dollarov to get somebody to the grandmaster level. Does it mean that the future Oceania will be rich or poor?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad
    In Russia they estimated that it costs about 1 mln dollarov to get somebody to the grandmaster level. Does it mean that the future Oceania will be rich or poor?
    Yes. or No.
    John Summerfield

  8. #23
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    [This post was moved and is a reply to Keong Ang's post here which in turn is a reply to Denis Jessop's post here.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Keong Ang
    By default all federations within the Oceania sub-zone are already members of the OCC. The only difference is whether a federation is a full member or a delinquent member.
    This is completely untrue (and needlessly insulting to boot).

    The situation is that the OCC declares Australia to be a member but Australia does not accept that as we have never agreed to join. Furthermore, in my view, we will not join until the OCC adopts a consensual membership procedure.

    Australia is a member of the Oceania zone but that is not the same thing as being a member of the OCC.

    FIDE have accepted the OCC's request for affiliation under the heading:

    organizations which represent the interests of regions, e.g. continents, or other groupings consisting of FIDE affiliated chess federations.
    But an organization claiming to represent the interests of a set of persons or groups does not automatically have the right to compel all those it represents to be members. It is similar to the situation of Australian trade unions which claim to represent the interests of all workers in their sector, yet in many sectors most workers don't actually join any union.

    Now a question that is of interest to players in events that fall under the OCC umbrella is the status of players from [non-member] federations. Are they eligible for the titles and/or prizes on offer?
    If FIDE makes OCC events eligible for titles (eg. IM, FM, WIM, WFM), and only players from member federations can play in them, would FIDE regulations on the treatment of players from [non-member] federations apply?
    An interesting question but if the OCC really is going to be dishing out titles that are softer than butter then perhaps Australia's national chess interests would be best served anyway by steering clear of such events.

    A member federation usually becomes delinquent by not paying membership fees.
    We have never been members in the first place.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 22-02-2012 at 07:48 PM.

  9. #24
    CC FIDE Master Keong Ang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I will move the OCC discussion very soon as was tangential to begin with and is now totally off-topic.
    Apologies for going off topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    This is completely untrue (and needlessly insulting to boot).
    I did observe the OCC AGM at Queenstown.
    Lots of amendments that were requested by AUS were put through. Much concern was raised over the labeling of federations as "delinquent" and I'm not sure what was done (or could have been done) about it other than the fact that nobody wanted such an insulting label to be attached to any federation.

    As for membership, I've always understood that a confederation is a looser grouping when compared to federation. Anyway, I'd better end here before contributing to further thread drift.
    IA Keong Ang



    "The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly." Abraham Lincoln

  10. #25
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keong Ang
    Apologies for going off topic.
    Not needed, the OCC was a tangential issue in this thread and I have no problem with moving such discussions as they drift further from the original subject.

    Lots of amendments that were requested by AUS were put through.
    Pleased to hear it (and this is the first I have heard of it). I should clarify that the ACF did not formally endorse any requested changes. Rather, a draft that some ACF Executive members have been working on was sent in the expectation that if the changes in that draft were adopted (or the most important ones anyway) then it would appear far more likely the ACF would join.

    Were any amendments we requested not put through? I ask because we haven't heard anything as yet (presumably the Minutes are still in preparation) and no ACF Exec member was able to represent us at the meeting.

    Much concern was raised over the labeling of federations as "delinquent" and I'm not sure what was done (or could have been done) about it other than the fact that nobody wanted such an insulting label to be attached to any federation.
    Concerning as it may be I'm not sure that actually has anything to do with the ACF as concerns the OCC.

  11. #26
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    I might add that it should not be thought by anyone that Australia's not joining the OCC is the view merely of the ACF Executive or some of it. The matter has been raised a various ACF meetings, both Council and National Conference. Though the lack of detail, nonsensical documents and less than helpful responses from the OCC is one aspect, there are others and I have not heard any ACF person speak in support of our joining, at least if things remain as they were when we last had any news of the OCC. That was before the Queenstown meeting. If the OCC doesn't let us know what happened at Queenstown, we must assume that it has lost interest in our possible future involvement or that someone has spat the dummy.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  12. #27
    CC Grandmaster Tony Dowden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    Tony they do say that talking to yourself is the first sign of madnes ... yes, I know what you are saying and agree!
    I didn't feel confident I'd get a quick reply so I decided I'd better have a go at both sides of the conversation.
    Fischer visiting Tal in hospital - Curaçao 1962

    "You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one." - Mikhail Tal
    "Best by test" (on 1.e4) - Bobby Fischer

  13. #28
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dowden
    I didn't feel confident I'd get a quick reply so I decided I'd better have a go at both sides of the conversation.
    It's okay to do this as long as you are not triumphant
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  14. #29
    CC FIDE Master Keong Ang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Pleased to hear it (and this is the first I have heard of it). I should clarify that the ACF did not formally endorse any requested changes. Rather, a draft that some ACF Executive members have been working on was sent in the expectation that if the changes in that draft were adopted (or the most important ones anyway) then it would appear far more likely the ACF would join.
    I was just an observer at the meeting. I think whatever changes were discussed were understood to be not the official ACF position/proposal, but were "suggestions" that could make it more acceptable for the ACF to join.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Were any amendments we requested not put through? I ask because we haven't heard anything as yet (presumably the Minutes are still in preparation) and no ACF Exec member was able to represent us at the meeting.
    Phil Viner (?) was at the meeting, and from my observation, he seemed to behave like he was under strict instructions to only observe in a private capacity.

    I was really there privately and was just being nosy. Just thought it was useful for me to attend since I was going to be the NZCF secretary.

    I don't know when the OCC secretary would have the minutes ready. I do wonder whether it is legitimate for minutes to be distributed to parties that are not OCC members. Guess this was where the discussion as to which federations are members and which are not are important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Concerning as it may be I'm not sure that actually has anything to do with the ACF as concerns the OCC.
    I can say that as an observer I was wondering why the people at the meeting seem to be performing diplomatic acrobatics in determining whether a federation is a member or not.
    Some discussion about AUS being a founding member, and yet not a member due to not having joined! For the non-aussie based people in the room, it seems like an issue simply because the OCC president is AUS. Logically, only people from federations that are members of OCC can be running OCC. Shouldn't it be the ACF's wish to join or not anyway?

    I don't know about the officials, but I do wonder what the OCC is actually for. There is the feeling that the OCC's present purpose seems to be to just function as some kind of international body to implement the Oceania Zone president's projects due to him not being able to get home (AUS) federation support. There is also the feeling that the OCC is to further develop chess in Oceania so that the Oceania Zone can graduate into a full continental zone instead of continuing as an Asian sub-zone. When there is an Oceania continental zone, the OCC would most probably evolve to become the Oceania Chess Federation to function as the umbrella federation of all national federations in Oceania.

    At present, this lack of clarity is where some level of frustration by OCC federations can be felt. The feeling is that where the OCC members are hesitant about certain events, the event is pushed through under Oceania Zone president's authority. But then, it could still be called an OCC event. (!?)
    Which hat is the OCC president wearing? Is he functioning as OCC president or Oceania zone president? Is the OCC just a body advising the zone president that can be ignored? Or is it a body that the zone president must follow?

    At the end of the day, my outside observer point of view is, what is the OCC all about?????
    In practice it seems to function as just another body for money from FIDE to be sent to. We of course, keep in mind that the money originally came from national federations.

    By the way, AUS is not the only national federation whose OCC membership was in question... but by then I wasn't paying attention to this mind numbingly boring issue anymore.
    IA Keong Ang



    "The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly." Abraham Lincoln

  15. #30
    CC FIDE Master Keong Ang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    I might add that it should not be thought by anyone that Australia's not joining the OCC is the view merely of the ACF Executive or some of it. The matter has been raised a various ACF meetings, both Council and National Conference. Though the lack of detail, nonsensical documents and less than helpful responses from the OCC is one aspect, there are others and I have not heard any ACF person speak in support of our joining, at least if things remain as they were when we last had any news of the OCC. That was before the Queenstown meeting. If the OCC doesn't let us know what happened at Queenstown, we must assume that it has lost interest in our possible future involvement or that someone has spat the dummy.

    DJ
    It is not just the ACF that has reservations!

    For all we know, the minutes from OCC Queenstown won't be written until shortly before the next OCC AGM. It could wait for that long...
    IA Keong Ang



    "The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly." Abraham Lincoln

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