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Thread: World War 1 & 2

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    At present the ADF is an all-volunteer force so the question of loyalty does not arise. When conscription is introduced as in the world wars and Vietnam, you don't get to choose. Except in the case of conscientious objection (which can only apply to all wars and not specific wars, as established by legal precedent), when you serve in a non-combatant role somewhere, you get drafted or jailed (or go on the run).

    Of course one's outlook is quite different at 18-20yo, when one is full of life and bullet-proof



    Such ambition would not sway a court hearing your draft-avoidance plea. You would do better working to change government policy, or change the government.
    So Ian, would you be prepared to go to War as a volunteer to fight for better world? You can pick WW2 or Afghanistan right now?
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Is it worth killing one German soldier to save the lives of a thousand people in a concentration camp, for example?
    Patrick, so rethoric questions aside, would you be happy to join army for this and go to europe to fight?
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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Of course, millions of Australians were prepared to fight and die overseas to defeat Hitler. They realised that if he wasn't stopped, he would eventually invade Australia. And the same argument applied to the Japanese.
    Does that mean you would go and fight? But would you be happy to go Afghanistan now, or its no threat to Australia?
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond View Post
    The other way to end up in jail was as an internee, as an expat of a country we're at war with. Will be interesting to see how that is handled, if/when the war with China comes.
    If it comes I will end up living in China...without even moving to mainland China. If its a big war like this and national conscription comes....can only imagine how the centerlink crowds and the ''professional protesters for human rights'' will be fighting against large, professional, well-trained Chinese army.
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  5. #185
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    If it comes I will end up living in China...without even moving to mainland China. If its a big war like this and national conscription comes....can only imagine how the centerlink crowds and the ''professional protesters for human rights'' will be fighting against large, professional, well-trained Chinese army.
    It was many of the centrelink crowd who joined WW1 just to get a job.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    At present the ADF is an all-volunteer force so the question of loyalty does not arise. When conscription is introduced as in the world wars and Vietnam, you don't get to choose. Except in the case of conscientious objection (which can only apply to all wars and not specific wars, as established by legal precedent), when you serve in a non-combatant role somewhere, you get drafted or jailed (or go on the run).

    Of course one's outlook is quite different at 18-20yo, when one is full of life and bullet-proof



    Such ambition would not sway a court hearing your draft-avoidance plea. You would do better working to change government policy, or change the government.
    The Vietnam conscripts could refuse to go to Vietnam as Vietnam were not attacking Australia, this loophole could be due to Archbishop Mannix (was it?) before my time. But they were under great pressure to sign to go Vietnam.
    https://cv.vic.gov.au/stories/a-dive...daniel-mannix/
    Last edited by antichrist; 24-08-2021 at 10:47 AM.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  7. #187
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    The Vietnam conscripts could refuse to go to Vietnam as Vietnam were not attacking Australia,...
    Hardly.

    However there were numerous grounds for exemption or deferment during the Vietnam ballot

    https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/encyclopedia/viet_app

  8. #188
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    So Ian, would you be prepared to go to War as a volunteer to fight for better world? You can pick WW2 or Afghanistan right now?
    At 81, I'm a bit old for it now. But in my younger days I spent 15 years as a volunteer in the Army Reserve

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Does that mean you would go and fight? But would you be happy to go Afghanistan now, or its no threat to Australia?
    I don't believe that the Taliban were ever planning to invade Australia, so I wouldn't be prepared to fight against them. But I would definitely have enlisted to fight against Hitler. Although, with a PhD in physics, I suspect that I would have made a more significant contribution by staying in Australia.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    If it comes I will end up living in China...without even moving to mainland China. If its a big war like this and national conscription comes....can only imagine how the centerlink crowds and the ''professional protesters for human rights'' will be fighting against large, professional, well-trained Chinese army.
    A Chinese invasion of Australia would be extremely difficult. But any war would almost certainly have escalated to World War III long before a Chinese invasion. I think Desmond was referring to something like this.

  11. #191
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    A Chinese invasion of Australia would be extremely difficult. ...
    The Japanese Naval Command was gung-ho on invading, but the Army balked - they didn't have the manpower to do the job.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I don't believe that the Taliban were ever planning to invade Australia, so I wouldn't be prepared to fight against them. But I would definitely have enlisted to fight against Hitler. Although, with a PhD in physics, I suspect that I would have made a more significant contribution by staying in Australia.
    And here was I, a high school science drop out, arguing with you about the conservation of energy. Maybe the cannon fodder division for me.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  13. #193
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Hope its not considered off topic (as I think it is relevant) - who would be prepared to fight and die overseas against an enemy who is NOT invading your country ...If there is a time machine, who would go back and fight Hitler in Europe...NOT send the troops but go and fight? I would not!
    I doubt I'd even do it against an enemy who was invading the country I lived in, unless the risk was very low. Of course, it depends on circumstances - if the risk of dying by not fighting is greater then I'd certainly fight, and also under some other such circumstances (eg a small risk of being killed is better than a certainty of being captured, tortured and imprisoned.)

    Pacifism doesn't work very well in self-defence cases in my view. Whether one wants to kill to avoid being killed is a personal decision; it is not morally wrong to kill an aggressor in self-defence or to save lives.
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  14. #194
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    Re Australian Involvement....Japanese knew Australians were there (they were mostly losing though - just like in the WW1)
    The Japanese advance was first stopped by Australian conscripts in New Guinea

    but I doubt Germans even knew Australia was fighting against them .
    Quotes attributed to Rommel:
    If I had to take hell, I would use the Australians to take it and the New Zealanders to hold it.
    Said about the Australians and New Zealanders after facing an Australian-New Zealand infantry division in North Africa

    If I'd had one division of Australians, I would have taken the canal in a week. If I'd had three, I'd have taken the world.
    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Erwin_Rommel
    Rommelís comments on Australian soldiers [1941-1942]

    Australia's pivotal role in the 'end of the beginning' remains underrated at home

    And was it a good idea for Australia to participate in WW2?
    Australia was then part of the British Empire, which depended on its imperial troops for survival.

  15. #195
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    Struth, what a board full of no hopers. My relos here during the War but who were born overseas all served in the "home defense" with military training defending the Brisbane Line if necessary along the border towns in SW Qld. One uncle a businessman for years afterwards gave returned soldiers free clothing and fags.
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

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