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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig_Hall
    I'm no great researcher, but if chessgames.com is a credible source (and I can't see why it wouldn't be), then that wiki page isn't very accurate. For example, a simple search for Tartakower at chessgames.com reveals that he played Bob Wade at Hastings in 1953, so Wade should be a 3, not a 4. If Barden and Wade are 3s, then one suspects that most of the leading British players are 4s, despite some being listed as 5s. Fairhurst is a 3 who moved to NZ (played Mieses), and he played a bit in the 1970s.

    Looking just at Tony's games listed on chessgames.com, he's a 5 many times over (e.g. Bill Forster played Bob Wade in Queenstown). Trying to find a 3 with some sort of NZ connection that's useful isn't going so well, sadly.

    On a side note, if chessgames.com is to be believed, Rubinstein, Spielmann and Nimzovich all played Mortimer, contrary to the Wiki which has them as 3s.
    Okay, the wikipedia page is far worse than I thought, I was wrong, sorry.
    Scott

  2. #62
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    In addition to Spielmann, Rubinstein and Nimzowitsch, as Craig pointed out, Frank Marshall and Oldrich Duras also played James Mortimer so are also 2 not 3 as listed in the wikipedia page. Found 38 other opponents of Mortimer in chessgames.com

  3. #63
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig_Hall
    I'm no great researcher, but if chessgames.com is a credible source (and I can't see why it wouldn't be), then that wiki page isn't very accurate.
    I think there's an inertia on Wikipedia that sometimes a lot of people know a page is wrong but no-one can be bothered editing it to a comprehensive enough standard to avoid having their work reverted. Especially not in a case where everyone can see it's wrong; it's easy to assume somebody else will do it. It seems sometimes it's easier to publish an article fixing the errors on some external blog then link to that.

  4. #64
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    From reading more about it, it seems it also depends on whether or not Mortimer is a legitimate 1 or not. He was very friendly with Morphy, and undoubtedly they played a fair amount of skittles over the years, but there are no records of any games, so no absolute proof in that sense. I also think the wiki has been updated based on a newer article on the subject, but the 2+ categories weren't updated at the same time.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig_Hall
    From reading more about it, it seems it also depends on whether or not Mortimer is a legitimate 1 or not. He was very friendly with Morphy, and undoubtedly they played a fair amount of skittles over the years, but there are no records of any games, so no absolute proof in that sense. I also think the wiki has been updated based on a newer article on the subject, but the 2+ categories weren't updated at the same time.
    My understanding, from the Chess Cafe articles on it, is casual games, any game whatsoever counts. Of course it is hard to prove anything other than competition games and some simuls unless there is some reason to note that they happened. I hope there is more to the Mortimer claim than they were friends.
    Scott

  6. #66
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    "In 1853, he was appointed attaché of the United States Legation in Paris, where he had an opportunity of renewing his acquaintance with Paul Morphy. The two countrymen thus became intimate friends. Both being passionately fond of chess, many hundreds of games were played by the master and pupil . . . ." Chess Monthly, Sept. 1892, p. 66.

    No game scores or tournament games exist, so that's as close as it gets to proof.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig_Hall
    "In 1853, he was appointed attaché of the United States Legation in Paris, where he had an opportunity of renewing his acquaintance with Paul Morphy. The two countrymen thus became intimate friends. Both being passionately fond of chess, many hundreds of games were played by the master and pupil . . . ." Chess Monthly, Sept. 1892, p. 66.

    No game scores or tournament games exist, so that's as close as it gets to proof.
    Thankyou. It seems like a good source.
    Scott

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    This is another "degrees of separation" thing I came across (see Erdos number on mathematics thread). It measures separation from Paul Morphy in terms of having played someone who played someone who played someone (etc)
    There was an article on Emmy Noether (of the Lasker-Noether theorem) in the NY Times this week. I wonder which chess-player-mathematicians have the lowest Lasker number? That's the maximum of the Lasker chess number and the Lasker mathematics number

    In mathematics, Lasker was mentored by, and worked with, David Hilbert.

  9. #69
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDavies
    There was an article on Emmy Noether (of the Lasker-Noether theorem) in the NY Times this week. I wonder which chess-player-mathematicians have the lowest Lasker number? That's the maximum of the Lasker chess number and the Lasker mathematics number

    In mathematics, Lasker was mentored by, and worked with, David Hilbert.
    I had a look in mathscinet and Lasker is not indexed at all. The coverage prior to 1940 is not good but if you say Lasker worked with Hilbert that makes it easier as Hilbert has lots of indexed publications so you can work out your Hilbert Number and add one. It's not ideal but it would give a reliable upper bound. Based on the Hilbert-Lasker assumption my Lasker number in maths would be 7. No idea of the chess side.

    Edit: I checked out the wiki page for Lasker and it lists four maths publications all of them single author. Although the list is not claimed to be exhaustive.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #70
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Bumping this thread for anyone who has not seen it before and may find it of interest or who may have something to add.

    Following the death of Pal Benko there appear to now be only nine living MN3s: Leonard Barden, Melvin Chernev, Borislav Ivkov, Franciscus Kuijpers, Christian Langeweg, Aleksandar Matanović, Friðrik Ólafsson, Jonathan Penrose, and Oliver Penrose.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 27-08-2019 at 03:24 PM.

  11. #71
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    This app developed by IBM may be of interest to followers of this thread:

    Is six degrees of separation for real? We’ve built an app for that. (IBM 2017).
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  12. #72
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    A significant discovery since the previous posts is that Smyslov is a 3. This bumps large numbers of GMs who were 5s up to 4. Not sure if there are any Australian ramifications of this.

  13. #73
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    That simul I played referred to earlier by KB and myself, was in 1972 when as FIDE President Prof Max Euwe toured Aus and NZ among other countries and played a number of simuls in many countries.
    I am wondering if I might get to 4 another way too. I played in a simul vs GM Nona Gaprindashvili at norths. For this one I have still got the scoresheet. She might have been old enough to have played some 3's. She was of course world women's champion for a long time.
    I lost both simul games.
    Last edited by Adamski; 27-08-2019 at 06:07 PM.
    God exists. Short and to the point.

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  14. #74
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
    I am wondering if I might get to 4 another way too. I played in a simul vs GM Nona Gaprindashvili at norths. For this one I have still got the scoresheet. She might have been old enough to have played some 3's. She was of course world women's champion for a long time.
    That wouldn't get you to 4, as it would only get her to 4.

    A lot of strong women are 4s having played Smyslov in Veterans-Womens matches. I can't find evidence that Gaprindashvili played Smyslov. She could well be a 4 through some other route.

  15. #75
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I can't find clear evidence that Kramnik played Smyslov, which would make Kramnik a 4, but Kramnik has said that he knew Smyslov well, so it's likely they at least played casually.

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