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  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    My comment regarding Jono's "long being an apologist" was clearly hyperbole and a dig at Jono which no one with any brains took too seriously.
    To accuse someone with Jewish heritage of being an apologist for Nazis is disgusting. I cannot think of a more vile comment. Now you seem to think you can get away with a weak post-hoc justification for this by calling it "hyperbole". Disgusting creature; away with you. If you weren't an administrator I would have added you to my banned list some time ago.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  2. #32
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    To accuse someone with Jewish heritage of being an apologist for Nazis is disgusting. I cannot think of a more vile comment. Now you seem to think you can get away with a weak post-hoc justification for this by calling it "hyperbole". Disgusting creature; away with you. If you weren't an administrator I would have added you to my banned list some time ago.
    You should learn to have some self control and simply don't read my posts. Or if you do read them then don't reply. Whinging about not being able to add me to your ignore list says much more about you than it does about me.

    Regarding Jono's Jewish heritage, for someone who claims Jewish heritage he certainly takes some very odd sides of an argument. After all he was the one who made the claim that the Stalin regime was responsible for more deaths than the Nazi one. Now regardless of whether the claim is true or not, it is an off line to peddle out in a thread which was purely about the Nazi regime which was more pointedly antisemitic. Furthermore you would that he is a christian apologetic, that is his job description, and a multitude christian groups (including the Nazis but also many others) throughout most of the history of Western Europe from 500AD onwards have been responsible for gross antisemetic persecution. So being called a christian apologetic should an even more derogatory term for someone acquainted with history.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #33
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Regarding Jono's Jewish heritage, for someone who claims Jewish heritage
    I don't just claim it. My father spent six years of his childhood in France during WW2 in hiding, separated from his parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    he certainly takes some very odd sides of an argument.
    What is so odd? You must be bitter and twisted to take my comment as supporting the National Socialists in any way, shape or form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    After all he was the one who made the claim that the Stalin regime was responsible for more deaths than the Nazi one.
    It wasn't invented by me. R.J. Rummel's megademocide figures in Death By Government are: 77 million in Communist China, 62 million in the Soviet Gulag State, 21 million non-battle killings by the Nazis, 2 million murdered in the Khmer Rouge killing fields.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Now regardless of whether the claim is true or not, it is an off line to peddle out in a thread which was purely about the Nazi regime which was more pointedly antisemitic.
    Why is it wrong to point out that Communist mass-murderers have had a free pass, and that many academics supported the Soviet Union.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Furthermore you would that he is a christian apologetic,
    The word is apologist; the discipline is apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    that is his job description, and a multitude christian groups (including the Nazis but also many others)
    As long ago pointed out, Hitler was a persecutor of Christians, and a follower of evolutionary eugenics. But this doesn't stop irrational atheopaths like RW peddling lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    throughout most of the history of Western Europe from 500AD onwards have been responsible for gross antisemetic persecution.
    Israel's staunchest supporters are evangelical Christians. Many who rescued Jews from the Holocaust were Christians, such as Pope Pius XII who rescued more Jews than Schindler, Corrie ten Boom ... Conversely, secular liberals tend to support Israel's enemies, including those who regard Hitler's Mufti as a hero:


    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    So being called a christian apologetic should an even more derogatory term for someone acquainted with history.
    I don't need gentiles telling me what I should believe.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  4. #34
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    To say Hitler appealed to Luther means Hitler cited Luther in defence of his position (which he does in Mein Kampf). It is not a statement on Luther's opinion of Hitler which of course would involve certain primacy and causality problems.
    How ridiculous. Under several centuries of Lutheranism, the area that became Germany was the most Jew-friendly part of Europe. And heavily Lutheran overseas Germans also welcomed German Jews. The gross antisemitism of the Nazis followed totally secular antisemites of the 19th century like Theodor Fritsch. Hitler's eugenics, euthanasia and genocides of the Slavs and gypsies can't even remotely be traced to Luther.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    It isn't. Stalinism is as reprehensible as Nazism.
    Which backs up my original point.

    But what communist regime hasn't been as repressive as Nazism? The Soviet GULag state? Mao's Chinese nightmare? Pol Pot's killing fields? Castro's island prison?

    It's hardly surprising, because to equalize property by force requires a very powerful government, which attracts and enables power-hungry sadists such as the Stalins and Maos of the world.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #36
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I don't just claim it. My father spent six years of his childhood in France during WW2 in hiding, separated from his parents.
    I don't dispute the claim just pointed out that you make it. However many of the people who by necessity fled persecution for Jewish heritage did not identify themselves strongly as Jewish but by virtue of their Jewish heritage were targets for systematic persecution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    What is so odd? You must be bitter and twisted to take my comment as supporting the National Socialists in any way, shape or form.
    I don't think so. You can argue comparisons if you wish but I fail to see any point to it. Yes both Hitler and Stalin were monsters. To suggest that those responsible for the killing squads or running the labour camps in the Gulag are more deserving of punishment by corollary suggesting that Nazis are in some way less derserving of the punishment they have received.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It wasn't invented by me. R.J. Rummel's megademocide figures in Death By Government are: 77 million in Communist China, 62 million in the Soviet Gulag State, 21 million non-battle killings by the Nazis, 2 million murdered in the Khmer Rouge killing fields.
    As I stated before I view Rummel's figures suspiciously as they are much greater than the usual numbers you see for all those regimes. This could be a methodological issue but the link you provided goes not give enough detail as to the method of coming to those numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Why is it wrong to point out that Communist mass-murderers have had a free pass, and that many academics supported the Soviet Union.
    You haven't shown that they have. As Kevin pointed out earlier to compare this in the context of the Ozols case you would need some case studies of equivalent cases of such individuals harbouring in Australia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    As long ago pointed out, Hitler was a persecutor of Christians, and a follower of evolutionary eugenics. But this doesn't stop irrational atheopaths like RW peddling lies.
    No lie. Hitler was a catholic and never renounced his faith. The population of Germany, before during and after the war was overwhelmingly christian. Jono's lie is that the Germans al converted to some non-christian faith sometime in the 30s and then all lapsed back to christianity in 1945. A technically possible but highly unlikely scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Israel's staunchest supporters are evangelical Christians.
    It is ironic that you would peddle this line when if the persecuting christians did persecute in the first place there would be no danger requiring this staunch support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I don't need gentiles telling me what I should believe.
    Your mock indignation is amusing but flagrantly hypocritical from someone who makes his living doing exactly that to everyone else.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #37
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    How ridiculous. Under several centuries of Lutheranism, the area that became Germany was the most Jew-friendly part of Europe. And heavily Lutheran overseas Germans also welcomed German Jews. The gross antisemitism of the Nazis followed totally secular antisemites of the 19th century like Theodor Fritsch. Hitler's eugenics, euthanasia and genocides of the Slavs and gypsies can't even remotely be traced to Luther.
    Again you don't seem to read the claim. Did Hitler appeal to Luther in Mein Kampf? Yes. Claim true. End of story.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #38
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    My post was in response to GF taking offence at being allegedly assumed a Communist apologist. Saying that I assume you (or even GF for that matter) to be a Communist apologist is a long shot and I fail to see how it follows from my post.
    Well you said "If Goughfather (or anyone else) doesn't accept that Communism is as reprehensible as Nazism, he should not be as offended by being assumed to be an apologist of Communism."

    Now I'm "anyone else", and I don't accept the first bit, so apparently I shouldn't be offended by being assumed to be a Communist apologist.

    While there many cases of fascist government (or, to be precise, a government called by it's opponent a fascist), very few (if any) were as reprehensible as German Nazi.
    Pretty much any government can be called "fascist" by its opponents. So what legitimate cases of relatively harmless, genuinely fascist governments can you think of?

    (NB The judges will award half-points for "Australia under Billy Hughes" )

    On the other hand, there were plenty of communist government that were even worse then Stalinism. Mao is the prime example. North Korean and Cambodian were much more oppressive and bloody, albeit on a smaller scale.
    Pretty much any diehard communist government that has lasted any period of time has committed major human rights abuses. This isn't surprising, because communism is illiberal and impractical and there is no known way to maintain it without violent repression (ditto fascism). Nonetheless the ideology itself does not commit to this sort of thing, so communists in the West, where their views are a permanent minority, are often peaceful and human-rights supporting.

    BTW, while definition of communism is more or less clear, fascism seems to be a label used by haters of whatever regime they want to demonize. It is supposed to have militant nationalism/racism at it's core, but it only applies fully to German Nazi. Other characteristics, like single party dictatorship and strict control of economy are widespread. For example, Hugo Chavez combines all three traits but is labelled as communist, not as fascist.
    Fascism is not necessarily racist. Fascism is authoritarian, nationalistic and anti-modernist and has an economic system of industrial corporatism that generates private profit but is subservient to the State. Although Wikipedia is an unreliable source, the current Wikipedia article gives quite a good coverage of the different serious definitions.

    They why do they take offence when their advocacy of Communism is pointed out?
    Do they? If so probably a hangover from the witch-hunting style approach to communism in the West prevalent during the 50s and 60s especially.

  9. #39
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    Jono,

    "Never wrestle with a pig - you'll both get dirty, and the pig will love it."
    Why do you bother with Rincewind, he isn't capable of writing anything coherent anyway. I know I made the same mistake, but now I realise that hardly anyone takes him seriously.
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  10. #40
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It's hardly surprising, because to equalize property by force requires a very powerful government, which attracts and enables power-hungry sadists such as the Stalins and Maos of the world.
    Also tends to be true of the repressions required for fascism. But as I pointed out above, there is a distinction to be drawn between the ideology and what we know about the practice. And there is variation anyway. Lenin was repressive and committed major human rights abuses, but on the Hitler/Stalin scale he was a tiddler. There are also some SE Asian countries where communism persists in slightly more than name as the ruling ideology (Laos, Nepal - I won't count Vietnam which is crypto-capitalist communism!) and however illiberal they are, I doubt these places really rank all that highly on the atrocity scale at the moment.

  11. #41
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I won't count Vietnam which is crypto-capitalist communism!) and however illiberal they are, I doubt these places really rank all that highly on the atrocity scale at the moment.
    There were atrocities committed in Vietnam and many perpetrated by indigenous regimes but unfortunately foreign regimes have also been active in that region during the 20th century, primarily Japan, France and USA, which have also lead to unnecessary suffering and deaths.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Pretty much any government can be called "fascist" by its opponents. So what legitimate cases of relatively harmless, genuinely fascist governments can you think of?
    It's not easy to come up with any genuinely fascist government in the first place (apart from Nazi Germany). Conventional wisdom classifies Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain and Pinochet's Chile as fascists.
    While the record of Italy is arguable (but nowhere near Germany), the other two were relatively harmless.

    Can you name any other genuinely fascist governments? (whether they are harmless or not)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Pretty much any diehard communist government that has lasted any period of time has committed major human rights abuses. This isn't surprising, because communism is illiberal and impractical and there is no known way to maintain it without violent repression (ditto fascism). Nonetheless the ideology itself does not commit to this sort of thing, so communists in the West, where their views are a permanent minority, are often peaceful and human-rights supporting.
    Ideology does not have to proclaim violence to be violent. Fascism or even Nazism did not specifically proclaim violence either.
    If supporter of communism do not understand that non-violent implementation is impossible, they are either naive, silly or cynical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Fascism is not necessarily racist. Fascism is authoritarian, nationalistic and anti-modernist and has an economic system of industrial corporatism that generates private profit but is subservient to the State. Although Wikipedia is an unreliable source, the current Wikipedia article gives quite a good coverage of the different serious definitions.
    I looked at this article and found it very vague. Majority of the countries are authoritarian (despite nominally being a democracy). Almost every country is, to some degree, nationalistic. You need to take nationalism to some extreme for it to turn nasty. Most of the countries simultaneously support corporations and ensure their subservience to the State. By that definition 70-80% of modern regimes can be classified as fascist.
    One might argue that authoritarianism, nationalism and subservience to the state must reach certain degree to satisfy the definition, but then I'd like to see that level defined.

    I can offer another definition:
    "Authoritarian government you particularly dislike"

    In contrast it's very easy to define communist government:
    predominant state ownership of assets and means of production.
    If quantification of "predominant" is required, then 80% should suffice.
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  13. #43
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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  14. #44
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    It's not easy to come up with any genuinely fascist government in the first place (apart from Nazi Germany). Conventional wisdom classifies Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain and Pinochet's Chile as fascists.
    I don't think Pinochet even qualifies, although his enemies portrayed him as one (which was scarcely an unreasonable response to his behaviour). He was just a run-of-the-mill right-wing dictator. He did not espouse a stridently nationalist ideology or attempt total control over economic affairs.

    Can you name any other genuinely fascist governments? (whether they are harmless or not)?
    I think a strong case could be made for adding some of the minor Axis powers at around the same time as Germany and Italy - Hungary definitely, Austria probably (I don't really think it matters whether the basis for fascism is secular totalitarianism or intense religious "conservatism").

    But there have not been many.

    Ideology does not have to proclaim violence to be violent. Fascism or even Nazism did not specifically proclaim violence either.
    Nazism was explicitly violent because of its emphasis on military expansionism and liquidation of ethnic minorities. Other fascist movements did not necessarily share these views.

    If supporter of communism do not understand that non-violent implementation is impossible, they are either naive, silly or cynical.
    Absolutley, couldn't agree more. Though communist parties can and sometimes do serve as junior coalition partners in government in situations where they don't have to deal with the challenge of trying to implement their full ideals.

    I looked at this article and found it very vague.
    Probably deliberately so, since what it points to is that "fascism" is no easy thing to define. Unlike "communism", which has a massive body of theory behind it with many recognised sub-movements and doctrines, "fascism" is a label that tends to be applied post hoc to historical movements that don't set out to be fascist in a list of recognised doctrinal ways, but that are nonetheless broadly similar.

    Majority of the countries are authoritarian (despite nominally being a democracy). Almost every country is, to some degree, nationalistic. You need to take nationalism to some extreme for it to turn nasty. Most of the countries simultaneously support corporations and ensure their subservience to the State. By that definition 70-80% of modern regimes can be classified as fascist.
    Mild authoritarian tendencies don't make a country totalitarian, especially not when these are (unfortunately) continually "mandated" through elections. And corporations being regulated by the state is not the same as a corporatism that exists primarily to serve the needs of the State.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Absolutley, couldn't agree more. Though communist parties can and sometimes do serve as junior coalition partners in government in situations where they don't have to deal with the challenge of trying to implement their full ideals.
    Like our Greens

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Mild authoritarian tendencies don't make a country totalitarian, especially not when these are (unfortunately) continually "mandated" through elections.
    "Mild authoritarian tendencies" can be applied even to most developed Western democracies. Other countries, IMO, much worse then that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    And corporations being regulated by the state is not the same as a corporatism that exists primarily to serve the needs of the State.
    Corporations are regulated by states even in most economically liberal countries. I was talking about subservience to the state.
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