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  1. #16
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saragossa
    No lions aren't intrinsically evil, they don't have the intellect to overcome instincts like humans do.
    So is your rule: only non-humans are justified in eating meat?

    On what basis do you treat humans differently from non-humans? It would seem to be instinct ... but since some non-humans apparently also have the ability to overcome their instincts, that would seem to be a bit flimsy. But each to their own.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  2. #17
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Of course you might believe that lions were meant to be vegetarian and only turned to eating meat because mankind at some bad fruit.
    Even today one lion refuse to eat meat, and another loves spaghetti.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    So is your rule: only non-humans are justified in eating meat?

    On what basis do you treat humans differently from non-humans? It would seem to be instinct ... but since some non-humans apparently also have the ability to overcome their instincts, that would seem to be a bit flimsy. But each to their own.
    Not just non-humans, if a human had a mental defect which hindered their decision making ability or understanding of life/death and pain/suffering then they don't have the mental equipment to overcome their need to eat i.e their instincts in regards to eating are stronger than their intellect in related fields. A vast majority of non-humans cannot disobey their instincts, this is due to a lot of things, perhaps every lion wishes to be vegetarian but their habitat just won't cater, those lions Jono has brought to our attention are not subjects of the wild but subject to human interference, this is not an instance of the Lioness overcoming instincts due to moral conflict, but a lioness overcoming instincts due to situation and possibly some odd up-bringing. Besides this point non-humans defying instinct is going to be an irrational anomaly not like vegetarianism which is practised by many humans (and herbivore non-humans but this isn't really all too relevant).
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

  4. #19
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Are you being serious of just pulling my leg?

    By similar reasoning you can say that slavery was a good thing because without it America would not have won so many track and field medals in the Olympics.
    Serious

    People who think that if we didnt consume cow products that those cows would just frolick forever need a reality check
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  5. #20
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    People who think that if we didnt consume cow products that those cows would just frolick forever need a reality check
    Life in the wild is no bed of roses and domestic animals have been adapted to the point that they would not survive without human assistant. I think I just got the wrong end of what you were saying. While I have no issue with consuming farmed meat products (or hunted meat products like much salt water fish) I believe it is a stretch to say that the farming of a species leads to the greatest possible good. Counting the life that domestic animals experience before they are butchered as a positive doesn't seem right to me. I don't have a problem with the point you were trying to make regarding the survivability of domestic meat species without human intervention which is generally low.

    I would point out that by making this point you are open to having the argument fragment into considering animals which are domesticated and cannot survive compared with those that are basically nondomesticated. For example, deer, kangaroo, crocodile farming and the like occurs and the animals are almost entirely undomesticated. Does that change your position regarding the eating for farmed venison against wild venison, or venison against beef, for example?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saragossa
    Not just non-humans, if a human had a mental defect which hindered their decision making ability or understanding of life/death and pain/suffering then they don't have the mental equipment to overcome their need to eat i.e their instincts in regards to eating are stronger than their intellect in related fields. A vast majority of non-humans cannot disobey their instincts ...
    Putting the two thoughts together, you seem to be saying that non-vegetarian humans have a mental defect. I'm not sure why you would not also think therefore that carnivore animals also have mental defects.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  7. #22
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    Non-vegetarian humans are needlessly killing animals. Whether it is wrong or right isn't for me to judge; however, I, personally, cannot morally justify it and thus, I believe, it is wrong and to do so - eat meat - implies a moral weakness in this regard. As people how shower for too long or pollute the earth, may not be evil, but their actions are certainly dubious given the earth's situation.
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

  8. #23
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saragossa
    Non-vegetarian humans are needlessly killing animals. Whether it is wrong or right isn't for me to judge; however, I, personally, cannot morally justify it and thus, I believe, it is wrong and to do so - eat meat - implies a moral weakness in this regard. As people how shower for too long or pollute the earth, may not be evil, but their actions are certainly dubious given the earth's situation.
    Humans are biologically omnivores and ancestors ate meat to survive and our bodies to some extent operate best with some meat in the diet. However, it is possible to live as a vegetarian and since we no longer need to eat meat the question is, is it morally acceptable to kill animals for food when other options are available?

    I don't believe there is a compelling argument either way. So I'm happy for everyone to let their moral compass be their guide. If enough people go vegetarian then societal values will naturally change too. I don't agree that vegetarianism or not should be forced down anyone's throat (so to speak).
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saragossa
    Non-vegetarian humans are needlessly killing animals. Whether it is wrong or right isn't for me to judge; however, I, personally, cannot morally justify it and thus, I believe, it is wrong and to do so - eat meat - implies a moral weakness in this regard. As people how shower for too long or pollute the earth, may not be evil, but their actions are certainly dubious given the earth's situation.
    If we weren't meant to eat meat, we simply would not be able to, this does not suggest a moral weakness any more than a blatant weakness in not eating meat. From what I have read, you recently turned vegetarian, at least wait six months before condemning us omnivores to death

  10. #25
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    If we weren't meant to kill people, we simply would not be able to. If we weren't meant to eat kids, we simply would not be able to.

    However, I do agree with the last part of your argument. There should be a waiting period before you can begin properly arguing your case; however, again, the thread was started to induce discussion on practical philosophy so without a pro-vego guy I imagine the thread would die out quickly.
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

  11. #26
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saragossa
    If we weren't meant to kill people, we simply would not be able to. If we weren't meant to eat kids, we simply would not be able to.
    Reminds me of my favourite:

    If God had not meant for us to eat animals, then he wouldn't have made them out of meat.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    If God had not meant for us to eat animals, then he wouldn't have made them out of meat.
    Well that does lead into my position quite well. I have absolutely no problem with killing any animal that can provide nutrition for that purpose, except where there is a choice of killing a plentiful species or one that is near extinction, animals should not be killed if it leads to extinction. I believe this based on religious reasons, ie God has no problem with killing and eating animals.
    Scott

  13. #28
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    On what basis do you treat humans differently from non-humans?
    I pose this same question to you, Spiny.
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

  14. #29
    CC International Master Space_Dude's Avatar
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    Ok, came back from a 10 day vacation of no internet and phone signal...

    This is my "idea"...

    1. if the meat we see at the shops dont get bought... they are wasted... after all they have an expiry date. which means a cow died for no reason... therefore we are doing the world a favour by not polluting the world with a rotting carcass

    2. If one of your bases of vegetarianism is because you care of the environment you should know that animal stocks creates the second most amount of polluting gases after industrial wastes.

    3. We were meant to eat meat wayy before we had the same intellect of an average chimp. we are strong and the dominant race because we hunted for our food. the human race might not have even existed if we were herbivores from the beginning... we were herbivores to begin with and over generations and generations of evolution, we saw the benefits of eating meat as well as vegetation.

    4. When i saw your comment on Sinisters post, i saw that your logic is dictated by the fact that mental ability is the same as biological effcts. We have the mental ability to kill man and children. but We can eat meat because of specific enzymes which break down the fibres in to nutrients we need. If you fed a herbivore which can kill ( ie a hippopotamus ) they would prob get sick because they cant break down certain nutrients that roams within the meat. so, they would die. We however have that enzyme to break down meat as well as enzyme to break down vegetation.

    5. Imagine if 6 billion people stopped eating meat... ( and say that there is no hunger when it happens) the animal population will begin to thrive, we will harvest more vegetation, and clear more land for more farms, use more pesticides, use more fertilizers. The animal population will start to become almost pest like and ruin our farm stocks, shortage of food because of these pests as well as shortage of land and chemicals will result in world wide famine. except we cant eat meat to survive because we're vegans... see the problem here?

    What are you trying to prove by not eating meat or eat any dairy products? which brings me to another point. Dairy Products

    6. If cows dont get milked, it can die, if it has to calves to feed, than what happens than? its good for the cows to be milked....

    7. Eggs... its NOT FERTILISED!!! ITS NOT A BABY CHICKEN!! if it was in the wild, it would still lay eggs that arent fertilised. they would rot or be eaten by a dingo or something. Why not feed the hungry population of the world with these domesticated animal's what you may be able to call as "NOT A LIFE FORM!" egg...

    8. Eggs... its NOT FERTILISED!!! ITS NOT A BABY CHICKEN!! if it was in the wild, it would still lay eggs that arent fertilised. they would rot or be eaten by a dingo or something. Why not feed the hungry population of the world with these domesticated animal's what you may be able to call as "NOT A LIFE FORM!" egg... I know I already mentioned it but i thought it was soo important that i thought i should mention twice.

    That's the end of my logic.. from my point of view i dont think you vegans are doing us any favour

    Good huntin'
    Tony
    IMABACK

  15. #30
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    1. if the meat we see at the shops dont get bought... they are wasted... after all they have an expiry date. which means a cow died for no reason... therefore we are doing the world a favour by not polluting the world with a rotting carcass.
    What if the carcass has no purpose in being there to begin with? If were were not to eat meat the meat wouldn't have a market.

    Carcasses are biodegradable and, again, you seem to be missing the fact that slaughter animals are farmed, we don't cull the random population of 'wild' cows.

    2. If one of your bases of vegetarianism is because you care of the environment you should know that animal stocks creates the second most amount of polluting gases after industrial wastes.
    Animals which humans farmed to high numbers. Without human influence animals, non-human, were doing a fine job of keeping the world in check. By the way, you realise you are supporting the continually-polluting, farmed animal industry by buying meat? Your point almost seems counter intuitive.

    3. We were meant to eat meat wayy before we had the same intellect of an average chimp. we are strong and the dominant race because we hunted for our food. the human race might not have even existed if we were herbivores from the beginning... we were herbivores to begin with and over generations and generations of evolution, we saw the benefits of eating meat as well as vegetation.
    We had to eat meat back in our pre-historic days, our canine teeth are evidence of this and as you said our digestion system; however, we also have an appendix, previously used to digest grain/grass, it is now useless because we evolved and cut raw grains/grass from our diet. Because we now have protein supplements and a greater understanding of nutrition, we no longer need meat, thus I have cut it out of my diet and intend for my canines to have the same fate as my appendix, albeit if fried tofu is chewy.

    4. When i saw your comment on Sinisters post, i saw that your logic is dictated by the fact that mental ability is the same as biological effcts. We have the mental ability to kill man and children. but We can eat meat because of specific enzymes which break down the fibres in to nutrients we need. If you fed a herbivore which can kill ( ie a hippopotamus ) they would prob get sick because they cant break down certain nutrients that roams within the meat. so, they would die. We however have that enzyme to break down meat as well as enzyme to break down vegetation.
    My last comment explains my opinion on this. Killing men also has its benefits, but it is so frowned upon in society, why?

    5. Imagine if 6 billion people stopped eating meat... ( and say that there is no hunger when it happens) the animal population will begin to thrive, we will harvest more vegetation, and clear more land for more farms, use more pesticides, use more fertilizers. The animal population will start to become almost pest like and ruin our farm stocks, shortage of food because of these pests as well as shortage of land and chemicals will result in world wide famine. except we cant eat meat to survive because we're vegans... see the problem here?
    This is an excellent point, the entire world cannot be vegetarian, it is true, but animals are fed on grains (they eat more grain in America than the people of America do) and since there would be no need for this grain we would have far more land. Again, I belive Jono gave me the link, land is not scarce, in Australia we have loads of free land and we have the technology to farm it. Another problem with global vegetarianism is the amount of jobs which would be displaced; global vegetarianism, as cool as it sounds, would be extremely problematic based on our living style in contemporary society. I will have to research this issue.

    What are you trying to prove by not eating meat or eat any dairy products? which brings me to another point.
    It causes suffering to animals and I don't like the idea of supporting that.

    Dairy Products

    6. If cows dont get milked, it can die, if it has to calves to feed, than what happens than? its good for the cows to be milked....
    Do research into the dairy industry, this is an ill educated statement. If I had a pet cow, which had a calf, I would milk it; however, a cow pumped full of hormones after its calf (in some dairies they drug indice lactation solely) has been killed is not natural and it is cruel

    7. Eggs... its NOT FERTILISED!!! ITS NOT A BABY CHICKEN!! if it was in the wild, it would still lay eggs that arent fertilised. they would rot or be eaten by a dingo or something. Why not feed the hungry population of the world with these domesticated animal's what you may be able to call as "NOT A LIFE FORM!" egg...
    Battery chickens suffer to have those eggs, I think you seriously missed the point of veganism. I would like to note soy harvests kill many animals which dwell in the fields, so I do not eat soy products, I am conducting research into the most friendly harvests.


    That's the end of my logic.. from my point of view i dont think you vegans are doing us any favour
    Thank you for that deep, deep insight.

    Good huntin'
    Tony[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by Saragossa; 20-08-2010 at 09:02 PM.
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

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