Practical Philosophy.

[.]

I have been a vego' for two months now and I am really enjoying the change, now I have begun a slow transition into veganism. People often ask why; firstly, because I don't want to cause pain and suffering to animals and secondly, because vegetables are cheap*. The first reason raises the issue of whether I should thus boycott all meat, rather than say: eating meat which is raised in a nice lifestyle (my Mother raises lambs so it annoys her) or only eating prawns and muscles etc. I am of the opinion although it is inconsistent with my reasons I would not eat well raised animals or shellfish/crustaceans, because a life is a life regardless.

Opions of vegetarianism and other forms of practical philosophy are welcome.

[.]

Second topic is the illegality of Marijuana. My opion revolves around the much more harmful substances tobacco and alcohol being legal. If the government doesn't legalise marijuana they should make tobacco and alcohol illegal.

Not a troll post. Serious opinions very welcome.

[Rincewind]

My opinion is that there is an argument for a degree of vegetarianism but I haven't investigated the options too closely as yet. However the life is a life philosophy isn't sustainable as 'life' is too broad a term. After all vegetables are also alive (or were once). Most of us makes decisions about the comparative worth of the life of various species of animals every day. We swat mosquitoes, we pat and cuddle companion pets, even comparing eating lamb (which are cute and cuddly) with eating shellfish, which aren't. I think the issues are too intertwined with emotions and the common human trait of anthropomorphism.

Anyway, for me I'm still and omnivore. But a potential convert I guess if someone can make a really good case. Maybe if I read Animal Liberation, but somehow I don't think that would do it.

[.]

However the life is a life philosophy isn't sustainable as 'life' is too broad a term. After all vegetables are also alive (or were once).

Yes, I think a discussion with a vegan friend ended in, "To be free of death, in our diet, we would probably need to become breathairians." Notably, mentioned somewhere else on the board, I know people who farm all their own vegtables and fruit and they only eat the fruit which has fallen off the tree. Crazy level of conservation, but I apreciate the effort.

even comparing eating lamb (which are cute and cuddly) with eating shellfish, which aren't.

My sister based it on a sensory argument, i.e. Shellfish aren't suffering through death because they don't feel pain as we do. Personally I don't know how this was proven, but in the supermarket I didn't have any reliable resources except logic , I fell back on the principle of life conservation.

We swat mosquitoes

I try, in the most part not to, neither do I purposlessly crush ants or other insects. When I witness people doing this it annoys me.

I was converted by the movie Food Inc., which I, upon reflection, see as shallow; however, I also note I became part of the quota the movie was intending to reach.

I can't see how eating meat can be justified, I read short debate on it ages ago and after watching Food Inc. I again could not justify eating meat, so I stopped. Have an internal debate and see if you can justify it. That being said, I hate tool factories who impose their beliefs upon others, I'm not trying to.

[Rincewind]

I try, in the most part not to, neither do I purposlessly crush ants or other insects. When I witness people doing this it annoys me.

Senseless crushing of ants or swatting mosquitoes is just cruel. However if a mosquito (or ant) is going to bite me then best to take preventative measures. In some parts of the world mosquitoes are vectors for various diseases like Malaria, Ross River of Dengue Fever. I have no problem with mass killing of mosquitoes to lower the incidents of these diseases.

[Kevin Bonham]

My sister based it on a sensory argument, i.e. Shellfish aren't suffering through death because they don't feel pain as we do. Personally I don't know how this was proven, but in the supermarket I didn't have any reliable resources except logic , I fell back on the principle of life conservation.

Any animal that is killed more or less instantly won't feel much pain anyway no matter how advanced or otherwise its sensory system.

Many ethics committees and so on now consider cephalopods (squid, octopus, cuttlefish) to be equivalent to vertebrates in terms of the permits you need to experiment on them, from which it follows that those who refuse to eat meat, poultry or fish on ethical grounds might consider adding calamari to their list. This, however, is based on a judgement about the intelligence of these creatures. There seems to be an assumption that an invertebrate that is stupid either doesn't feel pain or immediately forgets about it.

In my own research on snails, it is possible to take a DNA sample from a snail without killing it by cutting off a chunk of the tail; experiments have shown that snails this is done to survive at apparently normal rates. The funny thing about this is that the snails I have done this to will vigorously resist being trimmed, but once cut they just walk off and go about their business as if absolutely nothing had happened.

[.]

Many ethics committees and so on now consider cephalopods (squid, octopus, cuttlefish) to be equivalent to vertebrates in terms of the permits you need to experiment on them, from which it follows that those who refuse to eat meat, poultry or fish on ethical grounds might consider adding calamari to their list. This, however, is based on a judgement about the intelligence of these creatures. There seems to be an assumption that an invertebrate that is stupid either doesn't feel pain or immediately forgets about it.

I don't eat any meat.

Any animal that is killed more or less instantly won't feel much pain anyway no matter how advanced or otherwise its sensory system.

The suffering of the animal in captivity is what I am more concerned about. Farmed fish and shellfish etc go through this as well, thus I will not eat them. In many instances animals are not killed instantly.

In my own research on snails, it is possible to take a DNA sample from a snail without killing it by cutting off a chunk of the tail; experiments have shown that snails this is done to survive at apparently normal rates. The funny thing about this is that the snails I have done this to will vigorously resist being trimmed, but once cut they just walk off and go about their business as if absolutely nothing had happened.

Fully radical. How do they test whether the snail goes through suffering?

[.]

Senseless crushing of ants or swatting mosquitoes is just cruel. However if a mosquito (or ant) is going to bite me then best to take preventative measures. In some parts of the world mosquitoes are vectors for various diseases like Malaria, Ross River of Dengue Fever. I have no problem with mass killing of mosquitoes to lower the incidents of these diseases.

Very interesting point of whether human life should be more valued than non-human life. Although not rationally justifiable humans always seem to come first, and I agree with this, in most instances.

[Kevin Bonham]

How do they test whether the snail goes through suffering?

I'm not sure how you can really test whether anything experiences suffering, whether it appears to do or not. It's all assumptions one way or the other, and people more readily make these assumptions with things that are complex and "like us" than with things that aren't.

We tend to anthropomorphise our own pain responses, eg that something that is in pain is expected to complain, to twitch or lash around, to avoid the cause of the pain, and so on. But any of this is within the abilities of a machine.

[Igor_Goldenberg]

I used to be a vegetarian for almost nine years (for reasons similar to Saragossa), even though I only excluded meat and poultry (fish and seafood was a fair game!). However I stopped quite a few years ago.
While it's OK for a grown up, I wouldn't recommend it to a young person who is still growing.

One of the reasons I stopped being a vegetarian was a realisation that while killing another living being is cruel, refusal to eat domestic animals that are specifically grown for that purpose means that they will not be born in the first place. I still do not to eat hunted wild animals.
Irritation with numerous Green groups insisting on treating animals like human didn't help either.
The last straw was PETA idiots comparing chicken in the farm to Holocaust victims.

[Spiny Norman]

I can't see how eating meat can be justified ...

Are lions evil then?

[Desmond]

...refusal to eat domestic animals that are specifically grown for that purpose means that they will not be born in the first place.

I think this is a good point.

If we didn't consume cow products there wouldn't be any cows left.

[Rincewind]

I think this is a good point.

Are you being serious of just pulling my leg?

By similar reasoning you can say that slavery was a good thing because without it America would not have won so many track and field medals in the Olympics.

[.]

I would eat animals hunted myself, if I were manly enough to kill it in the first place.

I agree with Rincewind, we would still have cows, I don't see why we wouldn't as there are many animals humans don't use which are still surviving.

No lions aren't intrinsically evil, they don't have the intellect to overcome instincts like humans do.

[Rincewind]

No lions aren't intrinsically evil, they don't have the intellect to overcome instincts like humans do.

Of course you might believe that lions were meant to be vegetarian and only turned to eating meat because mankind at some bad fruit.