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  1. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    You mean a rather thin majority (51.9%) of those (72.2%) who actually voted, meaning that only 37.5% (not a majority at all) actually voted to leave. Of course it is what it is and those who didn't vote in effect consented to whatever the rest decided. But it's simply not the case that a "majority of Britons" expressed any particular view.
    And a "majority of Britons" definitely didn't vote for a no deal Brexit, since they were repeatedly told by Johnson and others that this would never happen.

  2. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    You mean a rather thin majority (51.9%) of those (72.2%) who actually voted, meaning that only 37.5% (not a majority at all) actually voted to leave.
    51.89% to 48.11%, so a 3.78% margin. But then Cameron won the 2015 election by winning only 36.9% of the vote. So there was more support for Brexit than for the winning party of most elections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Of course it is what it is and those who didn't vote in effect consented to whatever the rest decided.
    That's the case with all other elections. And elections in recent history have had lower turnouts: a nadir of 59% in 2001, and rising to 61% in 2005, 65% in 2010, 66% in 2015 and 69% in 2017, but still much less than the Brexit referendum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    But it's simply not the case that a "majority of Britons" expressed any particular view.
    OK then, but by that reasoning, "majority rules" hardly applies in any election in the western world.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  3. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    51.89% to 48.11%, so a 3.78% margin. But then Cameron won the 2015 election by winning only 36.9% of the vote. So there was more support for Brexit than for the winning party of most elections.
    It's not a valid comparison as you're comparing a Yes/No vote with the primary vote of one of many parties. Had the same election been conducted under Australia's system then the two-party preferred vote for the Tories in 2015 would have been more than 52%.

    That's the case with all other elections. And elections in recent history have had lower turnouts: a nadir of 59% in 2001, and rising to 61% in 2005, 65% in 2010, 66% in 2015 and 69% in 2017, but still much less than the Brexit referendum.
    That's all true, and it's the same thing. Somebody has to win, but that still doesn't mean the majority of all people who could have voted supported the winner.

    OK then, but by that reasoning, "majority rules" hardly applies in any election in the western world.
    Nor is it realistic to expect it to in that sense.

    I think this trend of outsourcing major decisions to voters unnecessarily is silly, but nonetheless a government that went to an election with a policy of doing so was so resoundingly elected that it pretty clearly would have won under a fair electoral system. And also there has been an election since where voters could have installed a No Brexit Party had there been overwhelming concern about the vagueness of it all. But it still doesn't mean there's majority support of all Britons for any course of action, even broadly.

  4. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    It's not a valid comparison as you're comparing a Yes/No vote with the primary vote of one of many parties. Had the same election been conducted under Australia's system then the two-party preferred vote for the Tories in 2015 would have been more than 52%.
    Fair point.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  5. #575
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    Even-handed article about points that both sides of Brexit are missing

    The Economic Discussion on Brexit That Isn't Happening
    Few discussions on the economic outcomes of Brexit find their way into Brexit media discourse. Why?
    Graham Cunningham, FEE, 31 August 2019

    Millions of words have now been expended arguing the economic case for and against Brexit. It is a sad reflection on the economic literacy of the British political class and its media commentariat that so few of these arguments have been informed either by hard economic data or any deep understanding of the British economy.

    The following is not an attempt at a definitive Brexit cost/benefit analysis but rather is intended to outline some of the underexplored economic realities that might have made for a more constructive debate. (“Remain” arguments alternate with “Leave” arguments to avoid the suspicion of some covert agenda here.)
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #576
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    There has been plenty of discussion of the economic effects of a no-deal Brexit. The problem is that the supporters of this repeatedly claim that all the economic problems (and other issues, like the 'backstop') are imaginary. Here is a detailed listings of the economic horrors awaiting it if the UK leaves without a deal.

  7. #577
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Parliament resuming tomorrow.

    Tory cabinet meeting tonight, quite a bit of speculation about a possible election before Oct 31, but this would need Labor's consent.

  8. #578
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    Motion to take control of the agenda will be dealt with tonight around 3:30 am AEST.

    If it succeeds, debate on the anti-NoDealBrexit bill will take place tomorrow around midnight - 4 am AEST.

    However, if the rebels take hold of the agenda then Johnson intends to seek an election for October 14.

  9. #579
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Oh Johnson just lost his majority (which was a combined Conservative/DUP majority anyway). A Tory, Phillip Lee, quit the party and joined the Liberal Democrats.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 04-09-2019 at 12:58 AM.

  10. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    Oh Johnson just lost his majority (which was a combined Conservative/DUP majority anyway). A Tory, Phillip Lee, quit the party and joined the Liberal Democrats.
    Mark Stein put it:

    As for Brexit, Boris and his opponents are now engaged in a battle for control of the calendar between now and October 31st. Today the Johnson ministry lost its majority in the House of Commons when a "Tory rebel" called Philip Lee crossed the floor and joined the Liberal Democrats. "Tory rebel" broadly translates as "establishment suck-up happy to subvert the will of the people", but it remains to be seen how many others will be willing to do what Lee did. Boris' advantage is that the many forces ranged against him in his own party and the opposition are in complete disagreement about what they actually want and even when they know what they want (no Brexit at all) are too slippery to say it. Judging from the polls, the public is beginning to pick up the whiff of evasion and shiftiness.

    If the last three years have taught anything, however, it's that these "rebels" calling for "people's votes" feel largely immune from the vox populi. For a just about functioning Westminster system, the next few weeks of parliamentary jockeying could prove the most constitutionally testing since the Australian dismissal.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  11. #581
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    There's no 'will of the people', of course, in British politics, only the decisions of the Parliament. Which has voted to stop the 'no-deal' Brexit which people didn't vote for in the referendum.

  12. #582
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    The Court of Session in Scotland has ruled that Johnson's prorogation of Parliament was illegal.

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