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  1. #1
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    Recording of Moves

    The rules basically state that in competition, you make your move ,stop your clock which starts the opponents clock, then record your move on the scoresheet.

    As a matter of interest, what happens if your opponent writes various moves down on a seperate piece of paper, then makes his move, stops his clock and then writes down the official move he makes on the official scoresheet?

    Just curious

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Menham
    The rules basically state that in competition, you make your move ,stop your clock which starts the opponents clock, then record your move on the scoresheet.

    As a matter of interest, what happens if your opponent writes various moves down on a seperate piece of paper, then makes his move, stops his clock and then writes down the official move he makes on the official scoresheet?

    Just curious
    This is note making and clearly outlawed.

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    This is note making and clearly outlawed.
    Yes, Cam is right. Even writing one move down on an official or unofficial scoresheet or piece of paper before playing that move is outlawed by the new rules (though personally I do not think it should be on the official scoresheet, as this can be a great blunder prevention measure, and neither did GM Alexander Kotov in his day).
    Last edited by Adamski; 15-02-2010 at 10:34 PM.
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  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    It should be noted that even under the old rules it was not permitted to write down variations or alternative moves and cross them out, as that was making notes and the scoresheet could only be used for writing down actual moves, not moves that were not actually made. I remember one player under the old rules who would write down two candidate moves then cross one out; I warned them that this was illegal.

    The somewhat grey area arose when players were writing down moves before playing them, then thinking about the move they had written down and almost always playing it, but changing their mind if it turned out to be a gross blunder. There was a widespread (and correct) view that this was technically a form of note-making and therefore technically against the rules. In practice though, action was not taken against players who only did it at low level, as opposed to those changing many moves per game.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 15-02-2010 at 10:49 PM.
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  5. #5
    CC Candidate Master SHump's Avatar
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    A new but mature member of our club entered a recent tournament, but the member did not know about or how to go about recording of moves. So we did a little coaching before the event. So despite various misgivings and false starts and a lot of uncertainty on the player's part, the player did record moves during their games.

    However, the player only recorded their moves and not their opponents. I DID tell the player to record their moves and that is precisely what transpired. I realise that the rules do say record yours and your opponent's moves, but I think we will have to move in small measures to get the whole game recorded, so this is a work in progress (half a score sheet must be better than NONE). BTW no-one objected to this half-score sheet approach.

    Just thought this would be a little amusing for the readers, and if others have come across this before.
    Last edited by SHump; 17-02-2010 at 09:16 AM.
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  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Descriptive ok or not?

    Interesting. Reminds me of something sort of related to this. There is a player I know who still records all his games in descriptive notation. Is this now outlawed by FIDE? Could his opponent insist he hands in a scoresheet in algebraic to win a game?
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly arbiter at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

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  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    Interesting. Reminds me of something sort of related to this. There is a player I know who still records all his games in descriptive notation. Is this now outlawed by FIDE? Could his opponent insist he hands in a scoresheet in algebraic to win a game?
    He is technically violating the law. Article 8:1:

    In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition.

    In internal club events, the policy might be relaxed, but not for any ACF-rated event.
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  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    Ta, Jono

    Thanks Jono. That confirms what i thought.
    Actually, I have never heard anyone complain when someone writes their scoresheet in descriptive notation. But as you say it would not have been ok at something like the Aus Champs!
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly arbiter at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

    Favorite movie line: Girl friend Cathy to Jack Ryan in "Sum of all Fears". "What kind of emergency does an historian have?".

  9. #9
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    There was/is a player Ive seen around here who refuses to score in grand prix events. He DEMANDS from the arbiter to be penalized time instead. It seems arbiters cave in to get his entry fees.

  10. #10
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    There was/is a player Ive seen around here who refuses to score in grand prix events. He DEMANDS from the arbiter to be penalized time instead. It seems arbiters cave in to get his entry fees.
    We had one of those at our club several years ago, quite a strong player but eccentric. Claimed to have a dyslexia-related condition that meant that the effort of writing down moves would greatly detract from his performance, although he had recorded moves in one weekender some time earlier in which his result, while below par, wasn't all that awful.

    Our club being a small club, rather than us demand that he produce a medical certificate, it was agreed he would lose 10 mins off the clock at the start of the game for G90 and G60 flat. Now that there are increments I would be demanding a medical certificate.

    The interesting thing was we had (and in one case still have) a couple of elderly players who had arthritis and who clearly couldn't score at the same rate as others. We offered to give them 10 extra minutes on the clock at the start of the game but neither took us up on it.

    A player without a medical excuse (which for a GP event should certainly be checked) cannot choose to just lose time off the clock. Under the Laws the game is lost by a player who repeatedly refuses to score, so he will get some series of warnings and/or time penalties and then be ruled to have lost the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    In internal club events, the policy might be relaxed, but not for any ACF-rated event.
    I am not aware of any policy that insists that relaxation of FIDE laws for ACF events in this sort of manner makes the events ACF-unrateable. Indeed I suspect there are many ACF-rated events in which some players still score in descriptive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    Could his opponent insist he hands in a scoresheet in algebraic to win a game?
    Assuming the arbiters or organisers have not relaxed scoring rules for the event in question then the proper procedure is to complain during the game and not after it. If a player lost a game and then tried to claim that the opponent should be forced to rewrite the scoresheet I would formally invite the claimant to go cry me a river.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 20-02-2010 at 10:57 AM.
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  11. #11
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    He wouldn't get me to cave in

    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    There was/is a player Ive seen around here who refuses to score in grand prix events. He DEMANDS from the arbiter to be penalized time instead. It seems arbiters cave in to get his entry fees.
    If a player can't write his/her moves then I would be happy to say that player starting with 45 +10 sec/move in a weekender. Otherwise I would refuse his entry or if it was too late, throw him out of the tournament.

    Cameron, what state is this player from?
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  12. #12
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    What the rules say

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderspirit
    If a player can't write his/her moves then I would be happy to say that player starting with 45 +10 sec/move in a weekender. Otherwise I would refuse his entry or if it was too late, throw him out of the tournament.
    Article 8.1 states:

    If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    This is note making and clearly outlawed.
    Actually, it is making use of notes which is clearly outlawed (Article 12.3a).

    Presumably, as soon as you start writing any notes, you are then automatically making use of the notes that you are writing and you are, as a result, in contravention of this rule.
    Last edited by Ian CCC; 21-02-2010 at 02:08 PM.

  14. #14
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    Poorly worded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian CCC
    Article 8.1 states:

    If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.
    I worded my response badly.

    If a player who is able to record, but wishes to be penalised instead of recording, I would throw out of an event if needs be.

    A player who is not capable of recording, requires assistance. I would of course faciliate a solution.
    Lee Forace

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  15. #15
    CC resident nutcase Trent Parker's Avatar
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    The time allowance is easy! If a player refuses to write his moves down the clock should be set to 5 min as players are required to write their moves down until after this period.... and with the 10sec incriment that should be enough for the player not writing down the moves!
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