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Thread: Does God Exist?

  1. #31
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Agreed AR. There is no logical argument that can ever be used to determine this kind of question, the question is entirely emotive. Either one has faith and one chooses to believe, or one can hold no view about the issue, or one finds no reason to believe, nor wants to believe. At the end of the day it comes down to choice, not reason. It as simple as that. Attempts to find logical arguemnt are entirely pretentious.
    I may be willing to subscribe to this argument ... as long as there is no pretension as to any intrinsic reason in this line of argument. Perhaps this is not an argument of reason, but rather of choice and expedience.
    "People with guns don't understand. That's why they get guns. Too many misunderstandings." - Jerry Seinfeld, The Little Kicks

  2. #32
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughfather
    I may be willing to subscribe to this argument ... as long as there is no pretension as to any intrinsic reason in this line of argument. Perhaps this is not an argument of reason, but rather of choice and expedience.
    No intrinsic reason whatsoever, not expedient, simply a preference.
    Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  3. #33
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Incidentally, the many-universe view that I would hold (if I had to believe firmly in many universes) would probably simply be one of universes composed of totally different forms of matter that in no way interacted with each other.
    Be a little more imaginative, KB. There is no reason why another universe has to have matter, and/or energy, and/or time, and/or space.

  4. #34
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commentator

    Or is it in the genes?
    Yes, the capacity to have "faith" is probably a consequence of both genetically determined personality traits and instincts.

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Hume against miracles

    So Paul, you can see from all the earlier posts that simplistic belief doesn't cut. And in spite of what others say about Hume I recommend the five reasons that he puts forward as to why people believe in miracles. This much I remember.

    Hey KB,
    Post them up, you would have easier access than me. thanks.

  6. #36
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commentator
    Would that be involuntary choice or voluntary choice? As in the old saying
    "The Devil made me do it.", which would make it involuntary.
    Or is it in the genes?

    C

    In the early days before the Devil evolved from Angel Gabrail, what evil got into God to creat Gabrail how he would evolve into the Devil? God must be intrinicly evil or not knowing what doing (like Matt in chess) or has no moral values.

    Or is the Devil good and God evil, as the Devil wanted to feed Adam & Eve from the forbidden Tree of Knowledge?

    Or is the Tree of Knowledge an incarnation of modernist, liberal believers who don't want to struggle with the stupidity of a physical devil and apples etc..

  7. #37
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_Richards
    Attempts to find logical arguemnt are entirely pretentious.
    Being no good at philosophical argument, it's no surprise you'd say a thing like that (which also ignores AR's point, which was about vocational value.)

    It's true you rarely see a logical point in the argument change a person's opinion. Maybe they add to lingering doubts one way or the other though, and affect whether or not social pressure or trauma cause a person to switch views later. Even if not, it is helpful to see how well the other side can (or cannot) defend their position.

  8. #38
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    Be a little more imaginative, KB. There is no reason why another universe has to have matter, and/or energy, and/or time, and/or space.
    Fair enough, my use of "matter" was overly restrictive. The crucial point is that however the other universes are composed, they do not interact with our own.

  9. #39
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Hey KB,
    Post them up, you would have easier access than me. thanks.
    Looking for a copy online ... if I find one I will post a link.

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arosar
    What the hell's wrong with youse young people these days - gettin' yourselves roped in to these fancy gobbledegook? Listen mate, you gotta study stuff that'll help you get a job mate. Study accounting, economics, marketing, IT or any of them physical sciences. I mean all this you're studyin' mate sound like they're just comic book stuff.

    AR
    Amiel, I left studying IT and science to pursue greater things - to traverse the boundaries of what we know of our universe and our place in it. To get a corporate job would be to limit yourself and ignore the greater world around you. If that means studying philosophy and religion and being a professor in the field so be it; it's still a 'job' in your terms but it would be doing something you love and I see no reason to affiliate it with 'comic book stuff'. You may as well turn your attention to professional chess players if you want to criticise people living in a fantasy world - tell them to get a real job instead of playing a game, or perhaps our professional athletes competing at the olympics.
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  11. #41
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Being no good at philosophical argument, it's no surprise you'd say a thing like that (which also ignores AR's point, which was about vocational value.)

    It's true you rarely see a logical point in the argument change a person's opinion. Maybe they add to lingering doubts one way or the other though, and affect whether or not social pressure or trauma cause a person to switch views later. Even if not, it is helpful to see how well the other side can (or cannot) defend their position.

    Lets call a truce on the insults, it adds nothing to debate. The concept of an omniscent, omnipotent God seems ridiculous, but all concepts put forward to seek meaning in our existence are equally ridiculous. There is nothing to philosophise, we exist, that's it.

    So if any choose to believe in a God, if they feel it helps them in some way, who the hell are you to try to take that away from them? That you find no meaning in the concept, fine - but you cannot offer anything more valuable to them, you are not in a position to judge what is valuable to them. Respect their choice, and if you have your own feelings about existence, then they are no more or less valid than theirs. They belong to you, its your personal choice, nothing more, nothing less -there is nothing heroic about it.
    Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  12. #42
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Put the reply to the on-topic parts of David's post here in case the rest blows up and needs to be moved - as, given the abysmally weak position Dave and Bruce have kicked off from, I'm rather hoping that it will.

    Quote Originally Posted by David_Richards
    The concept of an omniscent, omnipotent God seems ridiculous, but all concepts put forward to seek meaning in our existence are equally ridiculous.
    Indeed. However:

    (i) the point of this thread was to discuss whether God exists. If the concept is ridiculous, then it remains ridiculous irrespective of its ability to furnish meaning, and irrespective of that of any competing doctrine. Sorry to break it to you, but it doesn't appear that the whole universe rearranges itself to suit a bunch of evolved organic flotsam and their desire for "meaning". The issue of meaning has no bearing on the question of what exists, and the inability of any doctrine about reality to support human meaning if true would be no objection to that doctrine's truth.

    (ii) I would agree that all concepts put forward to seek an objective and general meaning in human existence are ridiculous (perhaps even equally so) but that is only because the general meaning of life question is a category error - meaning is a subjective perception that you either find for yourself, or don't, your ability to find it depending on your own psychology and circumstances.

    There is nothing to philosophise, we exist, that's it.
    Well, if that's it, then no higher being exists, and there is no God.

    So if any choose to believe in a God, if they feel it helps them in some way, who the hell are you to try to take that away from them?
    Firstly you assume that people choose to believe anything, as if they simply wake up one day and say "I'd like to believe in Buddhism today" and lo, for that day, they are a Buddhist. As far as I know, my late grandmother was the only person in human history whose religious beliefs were determined quite like this.

    Second you assume that people believe in God because they think it helps. This may well - at least subconsciously - influence their belief - but the assumptions involved, if so, may well be mistaken, and are irrelevant to the question of whether God exists anyway. You don't just wish something into existence. I mean, suppose I woke up one morning and said "It would help me to believe I had one million dollars in the bank. Therefore I have one million dollars in the bank". In any sphere of human thinking except religion this would get you locked up by lunchtime, but in many branches of religious apologetics this kind of thinking is actually defended and encouraged.

    Thirdly, you ask who the hell we are to "try to take that away". You will notice, if you are observant for one miniscule moment of your existence, that this thread was started by a theist. People can believe what they will, but if a person wants to say that God exists in a public place then the answer to your "who the hell am I?" question is - I am a person who has my own view and am entitled to express it.

    In any case, I don't care if people believe in God or not. What I do want them to see is that the no-God position is logically sound way beyond their wildest hopes of refuting ... and hence to realise that many Christian attitudes to unbelievers are indefensible (eg the idea that a just God discriminates against people for not having "faith"). From this I would like to see Christians support a position of complete seperation of Church and State. (And no, I don't care if it's never happened before or the original concept was different.)

    That you find no meaning in the concept, fine - but you cannot offer anything more valuable to them, you are not in a position to judge what is valuable to them.
    Irrelevant, the question is whether God exists, not what is valued. You certainly have no hope of offering much of value to me on this or most other threads - so why don't you follow your own illogic and shut up?

    Respect their choice, and if you have your own feelings about existence, then they are no more or less valid than theirs.
    More trolling garbage here - just because A disagrees with B's opinion does not mean A disrespects B's opinion - although, when it comes to your post that I'm now replying to, I'm quite happy to say I have no respect for said post at all and hope it was just dumb trolling.

    Also, the point of debating these issues is to attempt to establish whose views may be more or less valid. It is only from a perspective of refusing to debate the issue further that each opinion is equally "valid" - because both positions cannot be simultaneously true, and the illusion that they are comes out of ignorance alone. It is indeed possible that we cannot prove which is correct, but even this is an issue which can be argued about rationally and conclusions drawn.

    They belong to you, its your personal choice, nothing more, nothing less -there is nothing heroic about it.
    Who said it was "heroic"? Only one round here who rates themselves as a hero is you.

  13. #43
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Something to put inyour diaries fellas. Looks like it could be interesting.

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...246518389.html

    AR

  14. #44
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Kevin Bonham]

    (i) the point of this thread was to discuss whether God exists. If the concept is ridiculous, then it remains ridiculous irrespective of its ability to furnish meaning, and irrespective of that of any competing doctrine. Sorry to break it to you, but it doesn't appear that the whole universe rearranges itself to suit a bunch of evolved organic flotsam and their desire for "meaning". The issue of meaning has no bearing on the question of what exists, and the inability of any doctrine about reality to support human meaning if true would be no objection to that doctrine's truth.
    The answer to the question 'does God exist' in entirely emotive, because God means different things to different people and because in the case of the omnipotent God, it cannot be discovered by any reasoned argument. In discovering 'God' some people do indeed find meaning in their lives in a very personal sense. If it allows them to function better as an individual, then it serves a purpose.

    I would agree that all concepts put forward to seek an objective and general meaning in human existence are ridiculous (perhaps even equally so) but that is only because the general meaning of life question is a category error - meaning is a subjective perception that you either find for yourself, or don't, your ability to find it depending on your own psychology and circumstances.
    That's right

    Well, if that's it, then no higher being exists, and there is no God.
    It seems very unlikely. However, if you remain faithful to logical argument, one cannot be entirely sure, because anything is possible, even if it stands outside the physical confines of our universe. The multiple universe argument is similar, though logic tells us this is perhaps far more likely than a omniscent being. Also the chances of an omniscent being having any interest in planet earth, other than to create a new hyperspace bypass perhaps, is equally unlikely.


    In any case, I don't care if people believe in God or not. What I do want them to see is that the no-God position is logically sound way beyond their wildest hopes of refuting ... and hence to realise that many Christian attitudes to unbelievers are indefensible (eg the idea that a just God discriminates against people for not having "faith"). From this I would like to see Christians support a position of complete seperation of Church and State. (And no, I don't care if it's never happened before or the original concept was different.)
    ?
    It certainly sounds like you do, very much as it happens. People don't believe in God because it's logically sound, they don't care very much about the logic of it at all. What they are trying to find is personal to them, probably love, probably security, probably meaning. They are distilled from that wonderful human trait called emotion, and personally I'd like very much to keep that within the human race, even if it is illogical. The fact you don't care to pay attention to the lessons of history just displays the extent of your ignorance.
    Also, the point of debating these issues is to attempt to establish whose views may be more or less valid. It is only from a perspective of refusing to debate the issue further that each opinion is equally "valid" - because both positions cannot be simultaneously true, and the illusion that they are comes out of ignorance alone. It is indeed possible that we cannot prove which is correct, but even this is an issue which can be argued about rationally and conclusions drawn.
    And who is to be judge and jury about who's view is more valid? I reckon it would be the friends and families of the debaters, as to how much they love and respect them, as to how they appear to their community. Maybe how much they are valued in their community, how many loyal friends they have at birthdays and their funeral, or maybe whether their kids want to be with them?
    Last edited by David_Richards; 25-08-2004 at 11:21 AM.
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  15. #45
    Mr Bulldogs Paul S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    Yes. BIG odds, about 10^42^42:1.
    Thankyou for that, Matthew. This figure would be about right for the Universe to be created by sheer chance.

    In plain language anything with odds of 10^42^42:1 will NEVER happen.

    Which of the following two options is easier to believe?

    1) That something with odds of 10^42^42:1 happening (ie the creation of the Universe by sheer chance).
    2) A Creator (ie God) created the Universe.
    Last edited by Paul S; 25-08-2004 at 04:25 PM.

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