Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Fracas solved.

  1. #1
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wollongong
    Posts
    4,254

    Fracas solved.

    Barry, what was that fracas with you and Martin last night? Anything worth debating here?

  2. #2
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    Barry, what was that fracas with you and Martin last night? Anything worth debating here?
    I was going to post something sometime but wasn't going to name names.

    I'll post something after the kids are go to bed.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #3
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575
    OK, White and Black were playing a game. The time controls were 40 moves in 90 minutes then 30 minutes for the remaining moves. The times on the clock were White < 10s, Black ~ 1m 30s. Both players had recorded moves up to around move 35, although White's scoresheet had numerous corrections in the 30's.

    With around 5s left on the clock, White (with the move) stopped the clock and asked the arbiter to determine if the zeitnot had been crossed. Black replied that only two moves had been played since he had stopped recording and (meaning it was currently White's 38th move) and therefore both players had three more move needed to be played. White questioned this but Black was positive as his scoresheet is quite clear and as far as he knew without error up to the 35th move.

    White wished the game to be replayed on a separate board to exactly determine the current move number but Black protested that this was unfair given the present time situation. Black asked that at least 3 more moves should be played as soon as possible and then the clock should be stopped and the scoresheets brought up-to-date.

    After a minute or two of discussion this what was done except around 6 moves were played instead of 3. While the position was being recreated the DOP said that the position should only be reconstructed up to move 40, any remaining moves should be annulled and play continue from Whites move 41. Even though the players had actually played up to move 42 or 43 in the time scramble this was agreed. This did not sound right to me but as my position was superior, I reluctently agreed.

    So the game was contructed to move 40, played continued with White having 30 minutes, Black having 31 minutes. The game concluded 4 moves later when White resigned a clearly lost position.

    Here is the game for those who might be interested.

    PGN Viewer
     
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #4
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wollongong
    Posts
    4,254
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Cox
    While the position was being recreated the DOP said that the position should only be reconstructed up to move 40, any remaining moves should be annulled and play continue from Whites move 41. Even though the players had actually played up to move 42 or 43 in the time scramble this was agreed. This did not sound right to me but as my position was superior, I reluctently agreed.
    I do not agree that the moves should have been annulled. You were both naughty in the difficult position of not knowing how many moves needed to be played. The low quality time scramble moves are the price one pays for getting into time trouble.

    If all moves past #40 were to be annulled, it should have been stated before the clock was restarted, not during reconstruction.

    I wonder how you would have felt if during the reconstruction, you had been found to be in a crap position at move #40 but white's #41 timescramble move was a blunder.

  5. #5
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    I do not agree that the moves should have been annulled. You were both naughty in the difficult position of not knowing how many moves needed to be played. The low quality time scramble moves are the price one pays for getting into time trouble.

    If all moves past #40 were to be annulled, it should have been stated before the clock was restarted, not during reconstruction.

    I wonder how you would have felt if during the reconstruction, you had been found to be in a crap position at move #40 but white's #41 timescramble move was a blunder.
    Neither of us were naughty, per se, as we were both in a sub-5 minute situation and so recording the moves was not mandatory. Although I too believe the moves should have been left to stand. Had a blunder in the first move 41-43 range had changed the course of the game it would have been controversial. As it was however, it made little difference.

    The final position when the clocks were stopped the second time for the reconstruction was very similar to the position after Black's 42 move except the Q was on c1 and the White K was on f3. However, due to the annulment, that exact position did not occur in the in the official record of the game.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    CC FIDE Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    648
    The arbiter should have refused the White request and immeadiatley restarted the clock. Only when a flag falls can a player request information concerning the number of moves. It appears all subsequent problems flowed from this error.

  7. #7
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575
    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    The arbiter should have refused the White request and immeadiatley restarted the clock. Only when a flag falls can a player request information concerning the number of moves. It appears all subsequent problems flowed from this error.
    That's actually why 42-43 moves were completed before the reconstruction began. We basically played until White's flag fell. Although once I was sure we were past 40 moves I would have no objection to the clocks being stopped for the purposes of bringing the scoresheet up to date when neither player has a complete scoresheet and so a reconstruction is required (as was the case in this game).
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    13,308
    Copy of the relevant rule.

    8.4

    If a player has less than five minutes left on his clock and does not have additional time of 30 seconds or more added with each move, then he is not obliged to meet the requirements of Article 8.1. Immediately after one flag has fallen the player must update his scoresheet completely before moving a piece on the chessboard.
    8.5

    1.

    If neither player is required to keep score under Article 8.4, the arbiter or an assistant should try to be present and keep score. In this case, immediately after one flag has fallen, the arbiter shall stop the clocks. Then both players shall update their scoresheets, using the arbiter's or the opponent's scoresheet.
    2.

    If only one player is not required to keep score under Article 8.4 he must, as soon as either flag has fallen, update his scoresheet completely before moving a piece on the chessboard. Provided it is the player's move, he may use his opponent's scoresheet, but must return it before making a move
    3.

    If no complete scoresheet is available, the players must reconstruct the game on a second chessboard under the control of the arbiter or an assistant. He shall first record the actual game position, clock times and the number of moves made, if this information is available, before reconstruction takes place.

    8.6

    If the scoresheets cannot be brought up to date showing that a player has overstepped the allotted time, the next move made shall be considered as the first of the following time period, unless there is evidence that more moves have been made.

    Barry, i am surprised that you allowed the moves to be annulled, when you know the rules so well on here

  9. #9
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575
    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    Barry, i am surprised that you allowed the moves to be annulled, when you know the rules so well on here
    As I said, it may no difference in this particular case. I had just been playing for 3 hours, it was 11 o'clock and I had still up to one hour to play to go.

    In different circumstances I may have made more of an issue of it. Last night, I let it slide and concentrated on getting the point recorded on the results sheet first.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    13,308
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Cox
    As I said, it may no difference in this particular case. I had just been playing for 3 hours, it was 11 o'clock and I had still up to one hour to play to go.
    i dont understand why local clubs start so late? My club starts at 8pm for most events. we start at 7:30pm for our club championships (90/30). I think starting normal time control chess events at 8pm is ridiculous. I wish my club started at 7pm.

    Can someone answer this without saying, oh its cause ppl finish work at about 5pm and need time to get to chess.

  11. #11
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wynyard,Tas
    Posts
    2,422
    Quote Originally Posted by shaun
    The arbiter should have refused the White request and immeadiatley restarted the clock. Only when a flag falls can a player request information concerning the number of moves. It appears all subsequent problems flowed from this error.
    This sounds somewhat generous, shouldn't some additional penalty be imposed on White for stopping the clocks without valid reason?

    As it turned out Black won the game anyway, but had that not happened Black would be entitled to be highly aggrieved at White saving the game by such blatantly illegal behaviour. I'll avoid the word "cheating" as White may have genuinely not known the rules.

  12. #12
    Account Permanently Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,680
    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    i dont understand why local clubs start so late? My club starts at 8pm for most events. we start at 7:30pm for our club championships (90/30). I think starting normal time control chess events at 8pm is ridiculous. I wish my club started at 7pm.

    Can someone answer this without saying, oh its cause ppl finish work at about 5pm and need time to get to chess.
    gg''
    Don't know the answer to your question.

    When we were a small Club starting at 8pm (with analogue clocks) it was not unusual for a game to adjourned (formally with sealed envelopes) at 1am. At the stage the Club was only old fogies.

    After the junior explosion we have come to start at 7.45pm and we have not had an adjourned game for 5 years. I think the 75 minutes + 30sec/move allowed by the digital clocks, is our longest time-control (except when we are host venue for some VIC Champ. games)
    starter

    ps We are contemplating a 7.30 start.

  13. #13
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rout
    As it turned out Black won the game anyway, but had that not happened Black would be entitled to be highly aggrieved at White saving the game by such blatantly illegal behaviour. I'll avoid the word "cheating" as White may have genuinely not known the rules.
    I have little doubt that the mistake was due to lack of knowledge of the rules rather than an attempt to cheat. Although I think it is pretty easy to determine that such behaviour could not be legal from first principles (ie without knowing or referring to the rules) as such a situation would cause intolerable interuption in every such time scramble. However, in the heat of battle one does not always think of such things.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #14
    Account Permanently Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,680

    Don't rush the last polish of a finely cut opal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Cox
    OK, White and Black were playing a game. The time controls were 40 moves in 90 minutes then 30 minutes for the remaining moves.

    Barry
    Guillotine finishes sort of disappeared from our tournaments when we replaced all analogues with digitals; and with that disapperance also we have noted that time-fracas have virtually disappeared too. The Arbiters lot is greatly simplified.
    starter

  15. #15
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575

    Allow enough time for the final polish

    Quote Originally Posted by starter
    Guillotine finishes sort of disappeared from our tournaments when we replaced all analogues with digitals; and with that disapperance also we have noted that time-fracas have virtually disappeared too. The Arbiters lot is greatly simplified.
    This is starting to get off topic. I'll reply to your comment but if anyone wants to debate the pros and cons of incremental time contols please start a new thread.

    I am a big fan of the incremental time control. However, it's take up at my club has been slow (despite having ample digital timepieces). The main reason for this inertia is the requirement to finish all games by 12 midnight. The DOP is concerned that time controls like 75+30s/move will occasionally lead to overstepping this time limit. The other issue is there seems to be some suspicion of the digital clocks by some of the more "traditional" players.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •