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  1. #1
    CC FIDE Master
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    ACF Membership Proposal 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by peter_parr
    19-10-2006, 02:18 PM
    When will Australia abide by FIDE regulations?
    Handbook B02 par 16. “To be included in the FIDE rating list a player must be a member of a national chess federation which is a member of FIDE”
    Three years has passed since I pointed out on chesschat that to be included in the FIDE rating list a player must be a member of a national chess federation which is a member of FIDE. I asked when the ACF would be enforcing this FIDE regulation for all Australian players as some players in our Olympiad teams were not members. The response was that there was no ACF requirement for an Olympiad player to be a member of anything and it was up to FIDE to enforce its regulations.

    The debate continued for sometime eventually conceding that I had a point but the rules were unclear and FIDE would be contacted by ACF for clarification. FIDE are efficient and surely a reply would have been received from FIDE simply quoting the FIDE regulation which in my opinion is and always has been crystal clear. All players and officials can see the latest three page newsletter put out by FIDE and the European Chess Union which spells out once again in detail the updated FIDE regulations from July 1 2009.

    The wording in this paragraph has not changed in the three year period. The 3 pages is official from FIDE, European Chess Union, with all FIDE contacts as well as Stewart Reuben FIDE Qualifications Commission page 2. The English Chess Federation of course takes the matter seriously and abides by the FIDE Statutes with full details on its website and so should Australia.

    See FIDE and the ECU


    I do not share the view that it's up to FIDE to enforce its rules. It is up to National Federations to abide by the rules laid out by FIDE. From September 1 2009 the FIDE rating list goes down to 1200 and will later go down to 1000. Australian chess players will want more and more events FIDE rated as the list has dropped from a low of 2200 to 1200. The membership question is now much more serious and must be resolved for the satisfaction of all parties.

    FIDE - It is clear that FIDE, a member of IOC, needs membership for all FIDE rated players as the IOC does in all sports. No further explanation is needed - common sense prevails.

    ACF - The ACF members are currently 7 States plus life members. No individual can join the ACF. Australian chess history shows the difficulty the ACF has had in the past to have an ACF individual membership scheme. Firstly it is highly desirable regardless of FIDE for many reasons. I attended the ACF Presidents meetings over a long weekend in Sydney in the early 1970's. Each President had differing views but a $1 per year ACF membership scheme was established and a $40 life membership. It was not successful - especially after the box of index cards with the life members was lost forever many years later. The ACF struggled with little funds over many years. The 40 page ACF Financial Statement passed from Sydney (Wallman, Jones, DeBoer) to Jamieson in Melbourne revealed an ACF balance of $ 0. Steady progress over a number of years followed. The seven state associations and every person who has played a tournament game (thousands) have all generously supported the Australian Chess Federation. In recent years the ACF has I understand now accumulated a bank balance of about $80,000.

    This is of course a very unofficial figure and is based only on a number of unofficial but informed sources. The ACF is an administrative body and does not itself pay rent or organize events (-delegated to State Associations) so has little overheads apart from some FIDE fees. The ACF income is 60 cents per game for every classical game of chess played in every state ($14456.40 for the last 12 months). The State Associations process the results. ACF sends the invoices to every state and receives 100% of the rating fees. The state associations receive $0 provided they send invoices and are paid by every single club for their rating fees. Any toxic debt is paid by the state or if a state treasurer is not 100% efficient the state association will lose money on the ratings. All state auditors should advise treasurers of toxic debt. Suppose your local senior bank manager and well trusted chess champion Madoff ran a very successful Ponzi Open tournament and had 200 players x 11 rounds. The state processes the results, ACF receives from the State 1100 x 60c= $660. State invoices Madoff who has gone broke. State left with toxic debt of $660.

    While the ACF income is very steady and all players topping up the bank balance with every game the state associations are less well off. The annual membership fee charged by states varies from about $ 50 to $ 0 per year. Koshnitsky and C.Purdy both told me how bad it was that one year a state would have a membership of say $30 a year, then an AGM with only a handful of votes changed it to $10 amended to $5 resulting in few office-bearers.

    An important NSWCA AGM introduced an associate member (as well as a full member). I considered it of the utmost importance that every person playing chess and getting their games rated must be a member of some description. Why should any state process a rapid tournament (no charge ACF or State) and give rating services for free for non-members. Why should some NSW players compete in the ACF grand prix without being a member of anything. The AGM was well attended by a good cross-section of the community and an associate membership started (later down-graded in description- same $10 fee to rating services only). NSW has a full membership fee structure for all events and a $10 fee for all others. Every player in every club in NSW who has a rated game pays $10 minimum. The scheme works very well. 2009 membership is very good.

    WA, QLD, ACT all have membership schemes. Some states may not have membership schemes.

    Victoria has a scheme. In the ACT Supreme Court Jamieson, Parr, Wastell agreed XYZ of Victoria was a member of the ACF. Victoria is a very active state. If it receives 40c (ACF 20c instead of ACF 60c) per game for every game rated in Victoria and pays ACF $5 per person membership Victoria would be better off financially.

    In NSW if the Sydney Championship or NSW Championship is held all players must be full NSWCA members but we need ACF membership to comply with FIDE.
    In NSW when a major club has over 80 players in a FIDE rated event (cheaper to rate than many 10 player round robins!-ask Greg Canfell FIDE ratings officer) full NSWCA membership is not required only the rated player fee - another problem.

    If NSWCA runs a FIDE rated June weekender all NSW players must be full NSW members, all interstate must be endorsed by their state association. This is another problem. If a player is from a state with no membership fee they can play - unfair on NSW members but more importantly even worse for FIDE - member of nothing. Players should also be members of the State Association in which they reside. A player may sometimes play in another state and pay a lesser fee to enter a tournament or many times I see players tick the member box when they are not a member.


    ACF Membership Scheme Proposal by Peter Parr (OAM). ACF Hon Life Member.

    In the interests of the entire chess community in Australia I ask all players, State Officials and ACF Officials to co-operate to make the proposed ACF membership Scheme work for everyone and to meet FIDE requirements. Amendments would take forever and I suggest leaving the scheme with minimal change.. The matter is urgent and I suggest it starts on 1 January 2010 - urgent matters are like stimulus packages - urgent - please don't leave it another year - we should comply with FIDE now.

    1 The Australian Chess Federation and State Associations will only rate classical games if both players of the game are basic or full members of the State Association in which they reside.

    2 The basic membership fee in all states is $10 ($5 for juniors under 18 if not a member of their junior league). The player will be a basic member of the Australian Chess Federation and a basic member of their State Association for rating purposes only for the calendar year. Enquire with your state for full membership which may be required for major events.

    3 The ACF and States will regularly update their websites with members lists.

    4 All organizers to ensure all players are at least basic members and send the fees to their state association.

    5 The State Association pays to the ACF 50% of the basic fee.

    6 The ACF rating fee remains at 30c per player per game. The ACF keeps 10c per player per game and gives 20c per player per game to the State Associations.

    7 All events that are FIDE and ACF rated to pay the full FIDE rating fees but will receive a 50% discount on ACF rating fees.

    The effect it will have.

    FIDE membership requirements are fulfilled.

    The ACF has no extra work. The ACF income increases $5 for every player who plays a rated game. The ACF income decreases to 20c per player per game.(24094 games last year - ACF income at 60c a game $ 14456, at 20c a game $4814 income) I estimate these two factors will lead to a decrease in income for the ACF of about $2000 in the first year. The overall ACF bank balance would probably decrease slightly instead of a sizeable profit. ACF income is also boosted by interest on a large credit balance with higher interest rates.

    The bottom line is the ACF has been doing very well financially in recent years with few overheads and 100% of rating fees. It is in my opinion very good that the ACF has a very healthy bank balance (States should know the ACF overall financial position). I would be very much against spending these funds. The ACF needs to build up its structure which in turn builds up the number of players etc.

    NSWCA has about 460 members (including upgrade title of basic member). NSWCA pays ACF 460 x $5 for memberships and receives 40c per player per game

    The same structure applies for all states. All States will be slightly better off financially as the income from ratings(currently $0 in all states) will be higher than memberships paid to ACF. States without membership fees who may be struggling will find players agree to pay only $10 per year for membership - it is such a small amount for 12 months - and the state keeps $5 and you get back 20c per player from every game in every rated event in your state.

    The similar basic membership fee for the English Chess Federation from 1 September 2009 is 11 pounds ($25).


    Finally - Regular Federal Government Funding again will be possible. The first question asked is how many members do you have?


    Peter Parr

  2. #2
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter_parr
    Three years has passed since I pointed out on chesschat that to be included in the FIDE rating list a player must be a member of a national chess federation which is a member of FIDE.

    Three years has passed since I pointed out on chesschat that to be included in the FIDE rating list a player must be a member of a national chess federation which is a member of FIDE. I asked when the ACF would be enforcing this FIDE regulation for all Australian players as some players in our Olympiad teams were not members. The response was that there was no ACF requirement for an Olympiad player to be a member of anything and it was up to FIDE to enforce its regulations.

    The debate continued for sometime eventually conceding that I had a point but the rules were unclear and FIDE would be contacted by ACF for clarification. FIDE are efficient and surely a reply would have been received from FIDE simply quoting the FIDE regulation which in my opinion is and always has been crystal clear. All players and officials can see the latest three page newsletter put out by FIDE and the European Chess Union which spells out once again in detail the updated FIDE regulations from July 1 2009.

    The wording in this paragraph has not changed in the three year period.
    I guess you along with the ECU have not been keeping up with the FIDE regulations as that regulation no longer exists. The ECU have simply left section 16 from the old regulations on their website.
    The current as of 1st July 2009 FIDE rating regulations can be seen on the FIDE website at http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook?id=11&view=category and they include no such membership requirement.

    FIDE's removal of the regulation makes perfect sense as naturally FIDE understands that you can have a Federation without direct membership, as FIDE itself is made up of national federations and not individual members.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    There is a clear reason why the "membership" rule no longer exists. The FIDE rules for participation in events refer to the need for a player to have nationality or citizenship of the country of the relevant national federation (plus some other rules about residency etc). Whether a player need be a member of that national federation is not a matter with which FIDE is concerned. It is left to the national federation as an internal matter for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Parr
    WA, QLD, ACT all have membership schemes. Some states may not have membership schemes.

    Victoria has a scheme. In the ACT Supreme Court Jamieson, Parr, Wastell agreed XYZ of Victoria was a member of the ACF.
    This is misleading. Victoria has no individual membership scheme.

    I'm not sure that Jamieson et al agreed about the matter as alleged. My belief is that the ACF did not contest the claim of ACF membership made by the other party purely for tactical reasons. Basically, it was irrelevant except for the purposes of standing to sue which the ACF would not have challenged in any case.

    But even if they did, the argument was a tortuous one, namely that XYZ was a member of a chess club in Melbourne that was affiliated with CV which in turn was affiliated with the ACF. If that is a valid argument, then all Australian chess players in the same position (and more so if they are individual members of their State Association) are ACF members.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  4. #4
    CC Candidate Master SHump's Avatar
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    I think Peter Parr has made some interesting and worthwhile suggestions. Regardless of the FIDE membership issue, each of the suggestions should be considered, as Peter suggests, by the ACF and State Associations.

    At the very least there should be an up to date and readily accessible membership list. When entering a tournament, often the question is 'which club do you belong to?' - and if no club is listed then an additional fee is requested. If someone entered 'woop woop' (sorry to all the woop woopians out there) then how is this verified?
    Scott.. enjoying Melbourne and Wyndham Chess Club and Hobsons Bay Chess club!

  5. #5
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHump
    At the very least there should be an up to date and readily accessible membership list. When entering a tournament, often the question is 'which club do you belong to?' - and if no club is listed then an additional fee is requested. If someone entered 'woop woop' (sorry to all the woop woopians out there) then how is this verified?
    That is really a CV issue of listing members of affiliated clubs on its website.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  6. #6
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    That is really a CV issue of listing members of affiliated clubs on its website.
    NSWCA members can be found at http://www.nswca.org.au/members.shtml

    Is there a list of NSWJCL members?

    .
    Last edited by Brian_Jones; 04-09-2009 at 08:39 AM.

  7. #7
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Jones
    Is there a list of NSWJCL members?
    No as I believe there are concerns regarding the publishing of juniors on the website.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  8. #8
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    No as I believe there are concerns regarding the publishing of juniors on the website.
    Maybe they can opt in to a list of NSW chess players

  9. #9
    CC FIDE Master
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    Final version as published in the ACF 9th September 2009 Newsletter.

    Discussion paper on a proposed ACF and State basic membership and rating fees.

    Aim: The aim of this discussion paper is to
    a) introduce the basic calendar year state and ACF membership fee of $10 (this already applies to every NSW player who plays any classical rated game).
    b) distribute the ACF rating fees two thirds to state association and one third to ACF. The result would be that all seven state associations will be financially better off and have more members.

    The ACF will have a large basic membership structure but will receive less from rating fees. This system would I believe be very beneficial to the entire Australian Chess community.

    From September 1 2009 the FIDE rating list went down to 1200 and will later go down to 1000. Australian chess players will want more and more events FIDE rated as the list has dropped from a low of 2200 to 1200.

    ACF - The ACF members are currently 7 States plus hon life members. No individual can join the ACF. Australian chess history shows the difficulty the ACF has had in the past to have an ACF individual membership scheme.

    Firstly it is highly desirable for many reasons. I attended the ACF Presidents meetings over a long weekend in Sydney in the early 1970's. Each President had differing views but a $1 per year ACF membership scheme was established and a $40 life membership. It was not successful - especially after the box of index cards with the life members was lost forever many years later. The ACF struggled with little funds over many years. The 40 page ACF Financial Statement passed from Sydney (Wallman, Jones, DeBoer) to Jamieson in Melbourne revealed an ACF balance of $ 0. Steady progress over a number of years followed. The seven state associations and every person who has played a tournament game (thousands) have all generously supported the Australian Chess Federation. In recent years the ACF has I understand now accumulated a bank balance of about $80,000.

    This is of course a very unofficial figure and is based only on a number of unofficial but informed sources. The ACF is an administrative body and does not itself pay rent or organize events (-delegated to State Associations) so has little overheads apart from some FIDE fees. The ACF income is 60 cents per game for every classical game of chess played in every state ($14456.40 for the last 12 months). The State Associations process the results. ACF sends the invoices to every state and receives 100% of the rating fees. The state associations receive $0 provided they are paid by every single club for their rating fees. Any toxic debt(unpaid rating fees) is paid by the state or if a state treasurer is not 100% efficient the state association will lose money on the ratings. All state auditors should advise treasurers of toxic debt. Suppose your local senior bank manager and well trusted chess champion Madoff ran a very successful Ponzi Open tournament and had 200 players x 11 rounds. The state processes the results, ACF receives from the State 1100 x 60c= $660. State invoices Madoff who has gone broke. State left with toxic debt of $660.

    While the ACF income is very steady and all players topping up the bank balance with every game the state associations are less well off. The annual membership fee charged by states varies from about $ 50 to $ 0 per year. Koshnitsky and C.Purdy both told me how bad it was that one year a state would have a membership of say $30 a year, then an AGM with only a handful of votes changed it to $10 amended to $5 resulting in few office-bearers,no money and no structure.

    A few years ago the NSWCA AGM introduced an associate member (as well as a full member). I considered it of the utmost importance that every person playing chess and getting their games rated must be a member of some description. Why should any state process a rapid tournament (no charge by ACF or State) and give rating services for free for non-members. The AGM was well attended by a good cross-section of the community and an associate membership started (later down-graded in description- same $10 fee to rating services only). NSW has a full membership fee structure for all events and a basic $10 fee for all others. Every player in every club in NSW who has a rated game pays $10 minimum. The scheme works very well. 2009 membership is very good.

    My proposal would extend this to all players in all states.
    WA, QLD, ACT all have membership schemes. Some states may not have membership schemes.

    Victoria is a very active state. If it receives 40c (ACF 20c instead of ACF 60c) per game for every game rated in Victoria and pays ACF $5 per person membership Victoria would be better off financially.

    In NSW if the Sydney Championship or NSW Championship is held all players must be full NSWCA members.
    In NSW when a major club has over 80 players in a FIDE rated event (cheaper to rate than many 10 player round robins!-ask Greg Canfell FIDE ratings officer) full NSWCA membership is not required only the rated player fee.

    If NSWCA runs a FIDE rated June weekender all NSW players must be full NSW members, all interstate must be endorsed by their state association. This is another problem. If a player is from a state with no membership fee they can play - unfair on NSW members but more importantly member of nothing. Players should also be members of the State Association in which they reside. A player may sometimes play in another state and pay a lesser fee to enter a tournament or many times I see players tick the member box when they are not a member.



    ACF Membership Scheme Proposal by Peter Parr (OAM). ACF Hon Life Member.

    In the interests of the entire chess community in Australia I ask all players, State Officials and ACF Officials to co-operate to make the proposed ACF membership scheme work for everyone.
    1 The Australian Chess Federation and State Associations will only rate classical games if both players of the game are basic or full members of the State Association in which they reside.

    2 The basic membership fee in all states is $10 ($5 for juniors under 18 if not a member of their junior league). The player will be a basic member of the Australian Chess Federation and a basic member of their State Association for rating purposes only for the calendar year. Enquire with your state for full membership which may be required for major events.

    3 The ACF and States will regularly update their websites with members lists.

    4 All organizers to ensure all players are at least basic members and send the fees to their state association.

    5 The State Association pays to the ACF 50% of the basic member fee.

    6 The ACF rating fee remains at 30c per player per game. The ACF keeps 10c per player per game and gives 20c per player per game to the State Associations.

    7 All events that are FIDE and ACF rated to pay the full FIDE rating fees but will receive a 50% discount on ACF rating fees.

    The effect it will have.

    The ACF has no extra work. The ACF income increases $5 (membership)for every player who plays a rated game in the whole of Australia.
    ACF income $5 x about 1400-probably quite a lot more = $7000

    The ACF income decreases to 20c per player per game.(24094 games last year - ACF income at 60c a game $14456, at 20c a game $4814 income) I estimate these two factors will lead to a decrease in income for the ACF of about $3000 in the first year. ACF income is also boosted by interest on a large credit balance (about $80,000) with higher interest rates. After one year the total ACF balance including interest would remain at about $80,000 (if this figure is correct).

    The bottom line is the ACF has been doing very well financially in recent years with few overheads and 100% of rating fees. It is in my opinion very good that the ACF has a very healthy bank balance (States should know the ACF overall financial position). I would be very much against spending these funds. The ACF needs to build up its structure which in turn builds up the number of players etc.

    NSWCA has about 460 members (including upgrade rating title to basic member). NSWCA pays under the new proposal ACF 460 x $5 for memberships and receives 40c per player per game.

    The same structure applies for all states. All States will be better off financially as the income from ratings(currently $0 in all states) will be higher than memberships paid to ACF. States without membership fees who may be struggling will find players agree to pay only $10 per year for basic membership of ACF and State - it is such a small amount for 12 months - and the state keeps $5 and you get back 40c per player from every game in every rated event in your state.

    Currently if a state rates 1000,5000 or 20,000 games the ACF receives 60c for every game from the state - the more work the state does the more the ACF gains. The state only breaks even only if it recovers 60c from every single game state wide. Clearly rating games is a financial liability for states. In the new system the state receives 40c (ACF 20c) for every game rated by the state. The more games played the more work for the state and the more income for the state.

    The similar basic membership fee for the English Chess Federation from 1 September 2009 is 11 pounds ($25).


    I find it disturbing that 75% of the NSWCA executive are also on the ACF executive. A NSWCA block vote on any matter concerning the ACF is a very high overall percentage. When the highest/second highest ranking executive is the same person on ACF and NSWCA with a very strong personality his/her opinion seriously undermines the principles of our democracy.

    Finally - Regular Federal Government Funding again will be possible. The first question ACF is asked is how many members do you have?

    Peter Parr (OAM) Hon Life Member ACF , Hon Life Member NSWCA

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