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  1. #16
    Batoutahelius road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schu
    That's what I understood it to be. But I don't really get the applicability to this topic, if only because you can't quantify chess like that, you can accumulate skills like that but it won't represent your actual skill (though there will be some correlation of course). You can only judge a person's skill by results.
    OK I see what you're getting at now. What you call skill I would call playing strength.
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  2. #17
    CC Candidate Master Schu's Avatar
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    Fair enough
    Avatar is a game I played at a party and finished by castling queenside for checkmate, and has a pleasing degree of symmetry.

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Computers playing chess and go

    One comparison is that computers are now clearly better than the best human players. But computers are still a lot worse than the best go players. Since a computer beat a top professional on a four-stone handicap, it looks like computer go programs are up to the level of all but the strongest amateurs and a little below professional level.

    The Mystery of Go, the Ancient Game That Computers Still Can’t Win
    BY ALAN LEVINOVITZ 05.12.14
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  4. #19
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    Of course, that's more about the width of the search tree rather than Go being intrinsically more "difficult" than chess. It just means it is much more strategic than tactical, since it is much harder to think through all possible moves to a useful depth.

  5. #20
    Batoutahelius road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    One comparison is that computers are now clearly better than the best human players. But computers are still a lot worse than the best go players. Since a computer beat a top professional on a four-stone handicap, it looks like computer go programs are up to the level of all but the strongest amateurs and a little below professional level.

    The Mystery of Go, the Ancient Game That Computers Still Can’t Win
    BY ALAN LEVINOVITZ 05.12.14
    grandmaster Norimoto Yoda - master Yoda for short.
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  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Alternatively it could be just because the maximum computer effort has not yet applied to the belly of Go. Whereas we know that chess has copped full frontal attack for years. Computers can't beat fiddle sticks either yet but that does not mean that fiddle sticks is more complicated than chess.
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  7. #22
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    Alternatively it could be just because the maximum computer effort has not yet applied to the belly of Go. Whereas we know that chess has copped full frontal attack for years. Computers can't beat fiddle sticks either yet but that does not mean that fiddle sticks is more complicated than chess.
    From the link above...

    This is not for lack of trying on the part of programmers, who have worked on Go alongside chess for the last fifty years, with substantially less success. The first chess programs were written in the early fifties, one by Turing himself. By the 1970s, they were quite good. But as late as 1962, despite the game’s popularity among programmers, only two people had succeeded at publishing Go programs, neither of which was implemented or tested against humans.

    Finally, in 1968, computer game theory genius Alfred Zobrist authored the first Go program capable of beating an absolute beginner. It was a promising first step, but notwithstanding enormous amounts of time, effort, brilliance, and quantum leaps in processing power, programs remained incapable of beating accomplished amateurs for the next four decades.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #23
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    I doubt that a perfect chessplaying machine could give knight odds to a top grandmaster. However, a top go professional would probably need four stones to have a chance against a perfect go player.
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  9. #24
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I doubt that a perfect chessplaying machine could give knight odds to a top grandmaster. However, a top go professional would probably need four stones to have a chance against a perfect go player.
    what is Go's complication due to? Just having so many pieces (stones)? From what I gather it is like rounding the sheep up.
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  10. #25
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    what is Go's complication due to? Just having so many pieces (stones)? From what I gather it is like rounding the sheep up.
    Two factors are the large number of possible moves meaning an exhaustive search approach is almost useless, and although there is a large degree of symmetry it is an approximate rather than exact symmetry. Humans seem to be good at distinguishing when the near symmetry is important meaning two similar moves are approximately equal in value and when the differences between two similar moves is important.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  11. #26
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Two factors are the large number of possible moves meaning an exhaustive search approach is almost useless, and although there is a large degree of symmetry it is an approximate rather than exact symmetry. Humans seem to be good at distinguishing when the near symmetry is important meaning two similar moves are approximately equal in value and when the differences between two similar moves is important.
    Yep, sounds like rounding up the sheep to me that a sheep dog can run rings around a human doing. But only they are trained by humans. So those dogs equate the computer but without breakdowns and cyber attacks.

    Someone once said that with a few sentences I can make a complex world simple.
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  12. #27
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    TicTacToe (or Noughts and crosses) is a game of pure skill with a low skill level. It does not take long for a novice to reach a level where they can score equally against anyone. (given they learn correct strategies).

    A game with a high skill level would require many hours of study and play before a player would have a chance against top players.

    How many hours of study/play did it take players to reach the top 5% (say) in both Go and Chess?
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  13. #28
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM_Bill View Post
    How many hours of study/play did it take players to reach the top 5% (say) in both Go and Chess?
    in both, or in either? and it very much depends on the individual's talent as well as studying methods (availability of books, coaches etc).
    Chess World Champion J.R. Capablanca claimed he never studied books, whereas Chesss World Champion Dr Alexander Alekhine insisted 'I am the book'! Not sure if Chess World Champion Dr Emmanuel Lasker, apparently
    a strong Go player devoted much time in studying it!
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  14. #29
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    AlphaGo: Artificial intelligence milestone as computer beats professional at Go

    Scientists have created a computer program that beat a professional human player at "the most complex game ever devised by humans", Go, in a milestone achievement for artificial intelligence.

    ...

    The world's top Go player Lee Sedol has agreed to play AlphaGo in a five-game match in Seoul in March, Mr Hassabis said.
    YouTube: AlphaGo masters the game of Go

    "I heard Google DeepMind's AI is surprisingly strong and getting stronger, but I am confident that I can win, at least this time," Mr Sedol said in a statement.

    ...

    Should be a good matchup. Regardless of the result looks promising for the Go AI community.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM_Bill View Post
    ...How many hours of study/play did it take players to reach the top 5% (say) in both Go and Chess?
    It seems that Go prodigies are even younger than chess prodigies:
    A nine-year-old girl in Japan will become the youngest-ever professional player of the strategy board game go when she makes her debut later this year. Sumire Nakamura, who attends primary school in Osaka, started playing go at the age of three and will start her career at the lowest rank of shodan on 1 April, according to Japanese media. She will comfortably beat the record for the youngest professional held by Rina Fujisawa, who was aged 11 years and six months when she turned professional nine years ago.
    Although I'm not sure what level would qualify you as a 'professional' in chess. If it's having a GM title, then the youngest would be 12, for the IM title it would be 10.

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