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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    This is a very sad case. However no clear link between the pursuit of homeopathic remedies and spirituality is established in the article so it is unclear to me whether the problem is belief in a spiritual "truth" or just belief in pseudoscientific quackery, to which even some atheists are not immune. Is there a spiritual/religious basis for the acceptance of homeopathic drivel in India?
    But lack of the link is not a reason not to use it as a beat-up against believes different from your own.
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  2. #62
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Well, you should feel sorry and embarrassed for yourself.
    Oh... ouch! Did you think up that one all by yourself?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #63
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    But lack of the link is not a reason not to use it as a beat-up against believes different from your own.
    It appears there is a link for some practitioners and defenders of homeopathy at least, and any belief system (spiritual or otherwise) that does promote homeopathy certainly deserves to be strongly criticised and considered complicit in deaths such as the one Rincewind mentions. Obviously many spiritual belief systems do not promote it.

  4. #64
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    There are genetic dispositions for certain traits which have come prevalent in certain sections of the population due to local selection pressure. One obvious example levels of melanin in the skin. But a Darwinist ought not think that melanin level is indicative of anything more than a resistance to sun exposure.
    Right. So there are differences. Which means that all are not equal biologically. Which is what Darwin said. If you want to claim equality, then it is not biological equality, but value equality despite biological differences.

    If all are biologically equal as you suggested, there is no 'survival of the fittest'.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  5. #65
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    Right. So there are differences. Which means that all are not equal biologically. Which is what Darwin said. If you want to claim equality, then it is not biological equality, but value equality despite biological differences.

    If all are biologically equal as you suggested, there is no 'survival of the fittest'.
    My claim is we are equal biologically is not the preposterous straw man you are trying to erect but rather that all humanity share a completely common ancestry and biology that dates back many millions of years. We also share ancestry and certain biological traits with the other life forms on our planet as well, but that is a discussion for another thread.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    It appears there is a link for some practitioners and defenders of homeopathy at least, and any belief system (spiritual or otherwise) that does promote homeopathy certainly deserves to be strongly criticised and considered complicit in deaths such as the one Rincewind mentions. Obviously many spiritual belief systems do not promote it.
    It is true that this particular denial of vaccination deserves to be strongly criticised. However, the thread was started as lambasting of the spiritual beliefs. The logic of the generalisation was very weak (which, however, does not surprise me).
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  7. #67
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    It is true that this particular denial of vaccination deserves to be strongly criticised.
    What are you talking about Igor? The homeopathy case doesn't even relate to vaccinations. In that case the infant had severe eczema which the parents tried to treat with homeopathy and ignore medical advice.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #68
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    We can see from this thread:
    1. Many “spiritual” belief systems neither oppose vaccination nor support homeopathy
    2. Some fanatical atheists do oppose vaccination, and undoubtedly support homeopathy.

    So this proves nothing about the dangers of spirituality per se, and everything about the irrationality of anti-vaccination and homeopathy.

    Andrew Bolt wrote in 2007:

    The global warming panic, or the naked rain dance funded by VicHealth, aren’t the only signs we’re becoming steadily more irrational — and are perversely proud of it.

    Victoria University is the most scandalous example, offering a Bachelor of Health Science — Naturopathy and Homeopathy last year, with courses even in “vibrational medicine” to teach “energy healing, the role of intuition, spirituality and all other areas related to the metaphysical”.

    Seriously, as a chemist, I believe the tried and tested Law of Mass Action, where potency increases with concentration, rather than homeopathy that claims the opposite. So I commented:

    Here’s an idea for bar owners: keep watering down the drinks , but advertise them as homeopathic super-drinks
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  9. #69
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    I don't really see a problem with course in Naturopathy / Homeopathy. They have their place as a compliment to normal medicine. It is when they are pitched to replace normal medicine that the problems arise.
    meep meep

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    I don't really see a problem with course in Naturopathy / Homeopathy. They have their place as a compliment to normal medicine. It is when they are pitched to replace normal medicine that the problems arise.
    And taxpayer funded.
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  11. #71
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    I don't really see a problem with course in Naturopathy / Homeopathy. They have their place as a compliment to normal medicine. It is when they are pitched to replace normal medicine that the problems arise.
    I think any method which makes claims to have some sort of effect, especially a healing effect, that the efficacy of the method needs to be substantiated. The dangers are if you are allowed to make totally unfounded claims about treatments then you will have people opting out of scientific treatments which are often physically taxing and make realistic claims as to the survival rate, when down the road there is a homeopath saying they can heal everything with some watered down duck livers.

    Certainly before universities start cashing in on the alternative "treatment" boom they should ensure there is some scholarly merit to the course. Given that PVCs Research are encouraging interdisciplinary efforts these days, I wonder if the power that be at Victoria have got the chemists and homeopaths working on some joint research projects.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #72
    CC Candidate Master morebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    I don't really see a problem with course in Naturopathy / Homeopathy. They have their place as a compliment to normal medicine. It is when they are pitched to replace normal medicine that the problems arise.
    Why not throw in phrenology, crystal healing and urine therapy for good measure.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    We can see from this thread:
    1. Many “spiritual” belief systems neither oppose vaccination nor support homeopathy
    2. Some fanatical atheists do oppose vaccination, and undoubtedly support homeopathy.

    So this proves nothing about the dangers of spirituality per se, and everything about the irrationality of anti-vaccination and homeopathy.
    Lambasting spiritual beliefs is quite silly in this case.

    The following argument is, in my opinion, very weak, but the link is much stronger then in the original claim of the thread:

    "Atheism was a significant part of Soviet ideology, and USSR was the first country to embrace it. USSR pioneered the use of gas chamber and was the first one to use concentration camps on a wide scale. More people dies in Soviet concentration camps then anywhere else (with Nazis being second) until China embraced atheism and killed even more in its own concentration camps.
    It shows the great danger of atheism."
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by morebeer
    Why not throw in phrenology, crystal healing and urine therapy for good measure.
    Would you like to extend the list?
    BTW, many modern medical practices were ridiculed when they were first introduced.
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  15. #75
    CC Candidate Master morebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Lambasting spiritual beliefs is quite silly in this case.

    The following argument is, in my opinion, very weak, but the link is much stronger then in the original claim of the thread:
    Your cause and effect relationship between atheism and appalling human behaviour may be a bit simplistic.

    Conversely, it could be suggested that totalitarian political structures resemble - in part - monotheistic religious models. They share some common points: adoration of a central infallible leader or figurehead, the infallibility of a foundation text or manifesto and intollerance/hostility to people and institutions who are not members of their in-group.
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