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  1. #46
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I disagree, since it serves as a counter-example: this scumbag rejected the "spiritual" ideas that all men/races are created equal, for instance.
    That's not a spiritual idea it is also a grounded in science. We are all equal biologically and share a common descent out of Africa 4 million odd years ago.

    Still if you want to start a counter thread feel free. But I don't find one off nutjobs like Brunn really balance the scales even if his weird ideas were inspired by scientific truth rather than a pathological racist and absolutist world view. This thread is intentionally about more about the grass roots dangers as I outlined in the first post. I didn't want to list all the high profile suicide bomber, 9/11 style of dangers as that has been done to death here, in the media and elsewhere. Ditto Brunn.
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  2. #47
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    We are all equal biologically ...
    Wow ... have you really jettisoned Darwinism then, since it claims that all are not equal biologically, as some are more fit than others ...
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  3. #48
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    Wow ... have you really jettisoned Darwinism then, since it claims that all are not equal biologically, as some are more fit than others ...
    Maybe in twisted parody of Darwinism that you churchies think you know.

    There are genetic dispositions for certain traits which have come prevalent in certain sections of the population due to local selection pressure. One obvious example levels of melanin in the skin. But a Darwinist ought not think that melanin level is indicative of anything more than a resistance to sun exposure.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    That's not a spiritual idea it is also a grounded in science.
    If something is confirmed by the science it does not mean it is not a spiritual idea.
    And the case mentioned it is not even "grounded in science" but "claimed, even though not proved, by many scientists".
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  5. #50
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    If something is confirmed by the science it does not mean it is not a spiritual idea.
    My use of the word "also" indicates that I wasn't denying that it could be a spiritual idea, just that it is not a uniquely spiritual one. I apologise if you missed the nuance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    And the case mentioned it is not even "grounded in science" but "claimed, even though not proved, by many scientists".
    Not sure what you mean by "proved"? There are several competing theories on the migration of early humans and hominids. Science "proves" very little but it does sort out the theory which best explains the available evidence.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #51
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I disagree, since it serves as a counter-example: this scumbag rejected the "spiritual" ideas that all men/races are created equal, for instance.
    At least in the quote you gave it is not clear to me that he is saying belief in equality is either unique to spirituality or ubiquitous within it. In that quote the nutjob just calls the belief in equality "Liberal/Marxist/Jew propaganda" and says it is "preached from the American pulpits". Dropping the antisemitic angle there would be plenty of examples of spiritualists criticising Liberal/Marxist propaganda that is preached in at least some American pulpits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    If something is confirmed by the science it does not mean it is not a spiritual idea.
    But if it is neither a necessarily spiritual nor a ubiquitously spiritual idea then it makes no sense to call it a spiritual idea whether it is confirmed by science or not. It just makes it an idea that some spiritualists happen to believe in.

  7. #52
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    At least in the quote you gave it is not clear to me that he is saying belief in equality is either unique to spirituality or ubiquitous within it. In that quote the nutjob just calls the belief in equality "Liberal/Marxist/Jew propaganda" and says it is "preached from the American pulpits". Dropping the antisemitic angle there would be plenty of examples of spiritualists criticising Liberal/Marxist propaganda that is preached in at least some American pulpits.
    By the same token, I've documented opposition to vaccination by fanatical atheists, showing likewise that this misguided opposition is not a "spiritual" matter.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    My use of the word "also" indicates that I wasn't denying that it could be a spiritual idea, just that it is not a uniquely spiritual one. I apologise if you missed the nuance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    That's not a spiritual idea it is also a grounded in science.
    It is not a nuance, it is a cooked up excuse. The quote shows quite clearly a rejection of the motion that it is a spiritual idea.
    With such gaps in a simple logic demonstrated again I sincerely hope you don't try to work in an area of education.
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  9. #54
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    It is not a nuance, it is a cooked up excuse. The quote shows quite clearly a rejection of the motion that it is a spiritual idea.
    With such gaps in a simple logic demonstrated again I sincerely hope you don't try to work in an area of education.
    I'm not sure why you continue to draw attention to your own comprehension problems. I feel embarrassed and a little bit sorry for you.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #55
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    By the same token, I've documented opposition to vaccination by fanatical atheists, showing likewise that this misguided opposition is not a "spiritual" matter.
    Certainly not uniquely spiritual.

    Actually my reasoning about necessarily or ubiquitously spiritual views in my previous post was incomplete.

    There are cases where certain groups or individuals believe that because of spiritual "truth" X (typically that there is a God of a certain variety), action Y is morally obligatory. Religious groups arguing against blood transfusion is an example of this. That's a case where opposition to a practice isn't necessarily or ubiquitously spiritual but it still makes sense to talk about that person's spirituality as a source of their harmful belief.

    Whether the anti-vaccination "spiritualists" Rincewind refers to in northern NSW are anti-vaccination because of their spiritual views is not at all clear to me. Those may be cases of underlying causation - eg generic "alternative-thinking" tendencies leading both to anti-medical attitudes and pro-spiritualist ones, rather than the latter causing the former.

    In the case of von Brunn, it does not appear that his racism is caused by his anti-spirituality. Rather he is most likely first and foremost a racist nutjob, and as such his rejection of certain modes of spirituality is necessitated by his racism.

  11. #56
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    A couple whose baby daughter died after they treated her with homeopathic remedies instead of conventional medicine have been found guilty of manslaughter.

    Read the full story here...
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/paren...0605-bxvx.html
    This is a very sad case. However no clear link between the pursuit of homeopathic remedies and spirituality is established in the article so it is unclear to me whether the problem is belief in a spiritual "truth" or just belief in pseudoscientific quackery, to which even some atheists are not immune. Is there a spiritual/religious basis for the acceptance of homeopathic drivel in India?

  12. #57
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    This is a very sad case. However no clear link between the pursuit of homeopathic remedies and spirituality is established in the article so it is unclear to me whether the problem is belief in a spiritual "truth" or just belief in pseudoscientific quackery, to which even some atheists are not immune. Is there a spiritual/religious basis for the acceptance of homeopathic drivel in India?
    It is probably not established in the article but I believe there is a link as evidenced by a number of practitioners of homeopathy also providing "services" like spiritual healing. That is not to say that homeopathy = spiritual healing but they do share a level of coherence (as the snail king would say).

    Commentators also make the link both skeptical and homeopathic commentators. See for example Dr Steven Barrett's "Homeopathy: the Ultimate Fake" and Dr Paul Bahder's "Relationship of Homeopathy and Spiritual Healing." The latter (a pro-homeopathy piece) contains the following quote:

    ``...health in homeopathy in its highest aspect is understood as a process of opening up to the spiritual, that is supramental realm, in ever greater submission to It and toward eventual "unification with It".''

    Hence I think there is sufficient evidence to link a belief in the efficacy of homeopathy as a belief in a spiritual "truth".
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #58
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Is there a spiritual/religious basis for the acceptance of homeopathic drivel in India?
    It's more a case of vitalism than spirituality. Or maybe homeopaths have simply got drunk on highly potent homeopathic grog
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  14. #59
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It's more a case of vitalism than spirituality.
    I think it is a combination of the two but then I would be inclined to class vitalism as a brand of spiritualism anyway.

    If you look at this publication of Barrett's piece You will see in the feedback section one comment reads...

    Homeopathy works and you simply are too narrow-minded to understand that this world is made up of more than the mere physical and chemical natures. You overlook the spiritual and the energetic. You are the quack.
    (emphasis added)

    So in that person's mind at least the two are intertwined.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I feel embarrassed and a little bit sorry for you.
    Well, you should feel sorry and embarrassed for yourself.
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