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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    This was covered by my previous post but vaccines is not just about personal protection it is also about population protection. When the vaccine uptake rates are low the disease in question is capable of making a comeback in epidemic proportions (the way whooping cough has here in NSW) which costs society as well as endangering the lives of infants who are not yet old enough to be immunised.
    Vaccine is mostly about personal protection, at least it's very effective as a personal protection. Eradicating particular decease might be a nice bonus, but not a main priority. Personally, I don't feel I have a moral right to force someone else to vaccinate.
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  2. #17
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Vaccine is mostly about personal protection, at least it's very effective as a personal protection. Eradicating particular decease might be a nice bonus, but not a main priority. Personally, I don't feel I have a moral right to force someone else to vaccinate.
    I think you are wrong. Population protection is not just a bonus but a major benefit of a vaccine program.

    Also I'm not talking about the moral right to force someone else to vaccinate it is more about people with a misguided belief in the spiritual wrongness of vaccination to promulgate misinformation about the dangers and possible side-effects which leads to lower vaccination rates and therefore more cases of disease and death as a result.

    Whichever way you cut it you have people making choices on vaccination based on misinformation and a belief in a "spiritual" truth which leads directly to a higher mortality rate for society as a whole than would otherwise be the case.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #18
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Queens mom Marie Lauradin performed voodoo fire ritual that left daughter, 6, scarred


    Determined to drive evil spirits out of her daughter, a Queens mom performed a bizarre voodoo fire ritual that left the 6-year-old girl scarred for life, prosecutors say.
    While young Frantzcia Saintil was "engulfed in flames," Marie Lauradin let the screaming girl burn, Queens District Attorney Richard Brown said Thursday.
    The girl told cops "the flames crawled up her body and burned her," the criminal complaint said.
    Eventually, Frantzcia's grandmother doused the flames with cold water, but the women then put the girl to bed instead of getting her help, Brown said.
    Frantzcia suffered for a whole day before a relative begged them to take her to a hospital.
    When doctors finally saw her, Frantzcia had second- and third-degree burns covering 25% of her body, including her face, torso and legs, court papers state.
    Lauradin, a 29-year-old Haitian immigrant, was charged with assault and endangering the welfare of a child. She faces up to 25 years in prison if convicted.
    "She denies these allegations," lawyer Jeff Cohen said. "This is my client's only child. My client would not hurt her."
    Lauradin listened impassively as the judge ordered her held in lieu of $50,000 bail. She was also barred from having any contact with her daughter.
    Frantzcia's grandmother, Sylvenie Thessier, 70, was charged with reckless endangerment and endangering the welfare of a child. She faces up to seven years in prison if convicted.
    A friend nicknamed Sketch helped the women stage the Feb.4 ritual but was not named or charged with a crime.
    Frantzcia was put in a medically induced coma as part of her treatment. She is now in foster care. "The child has suffered permanent scarring, both physically and emotionally," Brown said.
    Lauradin, her mother and her daughter lived in the basement of a two-family home in Queens Village, where neighbors said they were not surprised.
    "They weren't into conversation," neighbor Henry St. Jean said. "I used to hear them scream at [Frantzcia]. They would tell her to get on her knees for a couple of hours."
    Lauradin allegedly burned her daughter while performing a ritual that Brown called "Loa." She sprayed a circle of rum on the floor around her daughter - poured some on her head - and ignited it, police said.
    Confronted by cops, Lauradin claimed she was boiling rice in a pot and accidentally spilled it on the girl when she was "startled."
    Lauradin also said it was her mom's idea to give Frantzcia a bath and put her to bed instead of taking her to the hospital.
    She claimed she didn't even notice the girl was burned until they got to the emergency room.
    Brown said they learned the truth after Frantzcia told her foster caregiver what really happened.With Brendan Brosh
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I think you are wrong. Population protection is not just a bonus but a major benefit of a vaccine program.
    Reciting the claim does not substantiate it.
    Your lack of vaccination will not affect my immunity after vaccination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Whichever way you cut it you have people making choices on vaccination based on misinformation and a belief in a "spiritual" truth which leads directly to a higher mortality rate for society as a whole than would otherwise be the case.
    I believe that majority of people do not require guidance from higher authorities when making decision concerning themselves. They should also take responsibility for their decisions, not someone else.
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  5. #20
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    ........
    I believe that majority of people do not require guidance from higher authorities when making decision concerning themselves. They should also take responsibility for their decisions, not someone else.
    But Igor neither your god or mine made us perfect and responsible. My paradise is outright complete justice for a certain Middle Eastern entity - but you would not consider that a good decision nor responsible, even though I have hope for you in recognising that lower rated players subsidise champs so therefore may be delusioned returning up for tourneys.

    You and myself may breath oxygen today and tomorrow we are gone - for better or worse and I will try to avoid you in the next life if that is okay.

  6. #21
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Reciting the claim does not substantiate it.
    The benefits of population wide immunity once the percentage (less than 100%) of immunisation have been reached and well known and establish part of the modelling of disease prevention. Your ignorance of this fact is not my problem.

    If you want to actually do some research on the matter you could try reading the following study from the British Medical Journal

    Duration of effectiveness of pertussis vaccine: evidence from a 10 year community study

    From the abstract...

    Thus the pertussis vaccine or its schedule of use does not seem to provide sufficient herd immunity to prevent outbreaks of whooping cough. Matters might be improved if vaccination against pertussis were included in the preschool immunisation programme.

    Obviously the community (or herd) immunity is an important factor in assessing the effectiveness of vaccine programs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Your lack of vaccination will not affect my immunity after vaccination.
    True but this is not about you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    I believe that majority of people do not require guidance from higher authorities when making decision concerning themselves. They should also take responsibility for their decisions, not someone else.
    I disagree. People been to have available to them as many reliable facts as possible when making a decision and bogus information based in delusion and wishful thinking needs to be identified as such. Vaccines provide personal and community wide protect from very dangerous diseases and people should be encouraged to participate if it can be demonstrated that it makes sense to do so.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #22
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    No one should be forced to be vaccinated; people should be allowed to make their own mistakes, and non-vaccination counts as a mistake. By the same token, we should not have to pay to bail them out of their mistakes. And private schools should not be forced to take non-vaccinated people. The problem is not with lack of vaccination, but with socialized medicine and education.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  8. #23
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    No one should be forced to be vaccinated
    No I never said they should be forced. However people should be provided with good information about the benefits and risk of immunisation and people should be taken to task when they promote unsubstantiated risks with no evidence to support them. In the vase of the vaccine/autism link it is worse than there being no evidence, the claim has been repeatedly studied and found lacking.

    Part of the problem is that a spiritual worldview promotes "alternative" therapies (read wishful thinking) which like it or not is in competition with medical science and thus often demonises scientific medicine and its practitioners. Thus there is a presumption that vaccines are a bad thing.

    The effect of all this is that spiritual worldviews lead to lower vaccination rates which in turn leads to outbreaks like the present whooping cough epidemic and the tragic and (in principle) avoidable death of unprotected infants.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    No I never said they should be forced. However people should be provided with good information about the benefits and risk of immunisation and people should be taken to task when they promote unsubstantiated risks with no evidence to support them. In the vase of the vaccine/autism link it is worse than there being no evidence, the claim has been repeatedly studied and found lacking.
    I agree. But if other people don't, then that's their problem. For our part, we encourage vaccination — see Questions and Answers on Vaccinations and the Immune System and Are vaccines biblical, safe or effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Part of the problem is that a spiritual worldview promotes "alternative" therapies (read wishful thinking) which like it or not is in competition with medical science and thus often demonises scientific medicine and its practitioners. Thus there is a presumption that vaccines are a bad thing.
    Yet I demonstrated that some prominent atheopaths oppose vaccination, such as Maher. And many of my ideological opponents just love "alternative" therapies.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  10. #25
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yet I demonstrated that some prominent atheopaths oppose vaccination, such as Maher.
    You have a quote from a standup comedian, yes. However I don't believe Northern NSW has a low vaccine uptake rate because they are Bill Maher fans.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The benefits of population wide immunity once the percentage (less than 100%) of immunisation have been reached and well known and establish part of the modelling of disease prevention.
    The benefit of population wide immunity is not disputed.
    However, the biggest beneficiary of that would be few unimmunised. The incremental benefit to immunised is not that great. People should worry about being immunised themselves, not whether everyone is immunised.

    Anyway, Jono summarised it quite correctly in post 22.
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  12. #27
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    The benefit of population wide immunity is not disputed.
    While perhaps not disputing it you certainly downplayed its importance when it is in fact a significant factor is the planning and assessing the success of vaccine programs like the pertussis vaccine program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    However, the biggest beneficiary of that would be few unimmunised. The incremental benefit to immunised is not that great. People should worry about being immunised themselves, not whether everyone is immunised.
    Not everyone can be immunised and it is unrealistic to think that everyone will be immunised. What I am concerned about is the increasing number of people choosing not be immunised based on beliefs which have no evidential grounding. Furthermore I am worried about the amount of misinformation on immunisation and the risks associated with it. My position is that scientifically accurate information should be provided to everyone and the misinformation going around be challenged and exposed as the old wives tales that it is.

    People should worry about disease epidemics which are brought about by a significant portion of the population are avoiding vaccines for reasons of superstition. Not so that that segment can be forced to be vaccinated. But obviously there is an education deficiency when so many people are going around with such silly ideas which has the effect of leading to unnecessarily level of disease and death in the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Anyway, Jono summarised it quite correctly in post 22.
    I don't object to post #22 very much at all. However it does not argue against anything I have said. The thing you said and I took you to task on is that vaccine is mostly about personal protection. This is patently false and population wide immunity is a big part of the benefits of many vaccine programs like the pertussis vaccine program. If we were talking about seasonal flu vaccine I would be more inclined to agree with you.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Not everyone can be immunised and it is unrealistic to think that everyone will be immunised.
    Those that see it beneficial will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    What I am concerned about is the increasing number of people choosing not be immunised based on beliefs which have no evidential grounding.
    Furthermore I am worried about the amount of misinformation on immunisation and the risks associated with it. My position is that scientifically accurate information should be provided to everyone and the misinformation going around be challenged and exposed as the old wives tales that it is.
    People always have been and will be making foolish decisions based on whatever. In case of vaccination they are mostly harming themselves. They might slightly reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine for those that vaccinate, but I don't see it as a big issue.
    When unfounded beliefs drive large government programs, they have much greater damaging effect. Strangely, those beliefs are not lambasted as much and not even scrutinised.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I don't object to post #22 very much at all. However it does not argue against anything I have said. The thing you said and I took you to task on is that vaccine is mostly about personal protection. This is patently false and population wide immunity is a big part of the benefits of many vaccine programs like the pertussis vaccine program. If we were talking about seasonal flu vaccine I would be more inclined to agree with you.
    You might want to quantify your claim in case of whooping cough.
    If almost nobody is immunised, what is the risk of contracting decease for vaccinated and non vaccinated?
    If almost everyone is immunised, what is the risk of contracting decease for vaccinated and non vaccinated?

    Ironically, seasonal flu vaccination is the case where the importance of population wide vaccination has a greater weight as the effectiveness of individual vaccination is, unfortunately, limited.
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  14. #29
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    They might slightly reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine for those that vaccinate, but I don't see it as a big issue.
    Perhaps if you have had an infant less than 2 months old (and therefore unimmunised) become seriously ill or die from whooping cough you might think otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    You might want to quantify your claim in case of whooping cough.
    If almost nobody is immunised, what is the risk of contracting decease for vaccinated and non vaccinated?
    If almost everyone is immunised, what is the risk of contracting decease for vaccinated and non vaccinated?
    The result of modelling of population wide immunity is that depending on the factors of the disease in question (risk of infection, incubation and infectious period and so on) and depending on the parameters of the population (number of interactions, mobility of the population, etc) there is a proportion of the population, usually less than 100% who if that proportion of the population or more are immunised then the spread of infection is reduced to zero. This is the concept of population (or herd) immunity. So it is not a question of changing the risk of contracting the disease it is more a question of reducing the exposure (or opportunity to contracting the disease).

    So to answer your questions:

    If herd immunity is attained the exposure for everyone is practically zero therefore no one contracts the disease. If herd immunity is not attained then the disease remains mobile in the population and those who are susceptible (unimmunised) at at risk of contracting the disease depending of factors like the number of infectives in the population and their exposure to these infectives.

    However, the issue you continue to fail to appreciate is that there is a segment of the population who cannot be immunised, most significantly infants under the age of 2 months, whose only protection from infection is herd immunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Ironically, seasonal flu vaccination is the case where the importance of population wide vaccination has a greater weight as the effectiveness of individual vaccination is, unfortunately, limited.
    Well I could be wrong but my understanding is that the vaccine program of seasonal flu is generally aimed at those in risk groups of personal infection (high exposure) or high risk of complications if infection does occur. In such cases there is no expectation that a large enough segment of the population will immunise so that herd immunity becomes a realistic possibility.

    This is in contrast to the pertussis vaccine program where every effort is made to vaccinate as much of the population as possible with routine shots throughout childhood. The NSW Dept of Health is currently also recommending booster shoot for parents and grandparents who care for young children not for reasons of personal protection but so that their immunity will reduce the risk to the infants in their care.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    So to answer your questions:

    If herd immunity is attained the exposure for everyone is practically zero therefore no one contracts the disease. If herd immunity is not attained then the disease remains mobile in the population and those who are susceptible (unimmunised) at at risk of contracting the disease depending of factors like the number of infectives in the population and their exposure to these infectives.
    You don't seem to object that herd immunity mostly helps non-immunised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    However, the issue you continue to fail to appreciate is that there is a segment of the population who cannot be immunised, most significantly infants under the age of 2 months, whose only protection from infection is herd immunity.
    1. Do you have any statistics on percentage of infants under the age of 2 months contracting decease?

    2. Pertussis vaccine lasts for only few years. It means that adults have no immunity and can pass an infection to infants. Infants under 2 month of age do not generally contact other children, and parents have a good and easy control of that. Therefore pertussis immunisation will have zero or no effect on that group. BTW I do not remember any doctor (and we so many before and after the birth of children) recommending whooping cough immunisation to me or my wife.

    Any other group that cannot be immunised and thus requires population-wide vaccination?
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