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  1. #1
    CC Candidate Master
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    Colours for late entry

    Hello,

    I am an Italian arbiter and programmer (Vega's author). With a friend of mine (another arbiter) we are developing a pairing engine that implement the FIDE Dutch-Swiss. Currently we are performing several test of the program and comparing the results against those given by the certificated Swiss Master 5.5 (SM).
    We obtained so far several discrepancies and we need to discuss them with expert arbiters to decide how to tune the program.
    Googling internet I found only this site (in the past there was the FIDE forum now turned off) where many arbiters discuss the same problems at which we are interested too. So I hope to receive feedback from you. Moreover I hope that my questions may be of some interest for this forum.

    My first post regards the color assignment between two players (in brackets the color hystori):

    case 1)

    A [WB]
    B [--]


    Player B entered the tournament after two forfeits so he has no color in the previous two games.
    SM performar the pair

    B - A

    giving the white to player B and two consecutive black to player A. Is it correct? We would prefer

    A - B

    giving the alternation to A being the color preference of B practically 0.

    case 2)

    A [BWWBWB]
    B [--WBWB]

    it is related to the previous one. Who gets the white?

    Thank you very much in advance for your answers.
    Luigi Forlano
    Last edited by forlano; 17-05-2009 at 05:53 AM.

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster
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    In case 1 the pairing should be A-B as you suggest.

    In case 2 the pairing should be B-A

    Scott

    Edit: The answers above assume A is the higher ranked player.
    Last edited by Oepty; 17-05-2009 at 12:09 PM.

  3. #3
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    In case 1 the pairing should be A-B as you suggest.

    In case 2 the pairing should be B-A

    Scott
    Under what specific dutch pairing rules do you base your decisions on.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Under what specific dutch pairing rule do you base your decisions on.
    Bill. The normal rules. Are my answers right or wrong?
    Scott

  5. #5
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    Bill. The normal rules. Are my answers right or wrong?
    Scott
    Possibly right and possibly wrong as there is insufficient information in the information provided to know which way to go.

    In both cases you need to know if players A and B have the same score and secondly if they do have the same score which player is ranked higher.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
    Mos Eisley spaceport The toolbox. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Possibly right and possibly wrong as there is insufficient information in the information provided to know which way to go.

    In both cases you need to know if players A and B have the same score and secondly if they do have the same score which player is ranked higher.
    I assumed that A was higher ranked than B. I guess I should have said that.
    Scott

  7. #7
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    I assumed that A was higher ranked than B. I guess I should have said that.
    Scott
    I would assume that B is higher ranked than A given that is the pairing given by Swiss Master.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
    Mos Eisley spaceport The toolbox. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    I would assume that B is higher ranked than A given that is the pairing given by Swiss Master.
    Possibly although I would never put the scenario up in with the players listed in reverse ranking order. Perhaps though they are reversed in SM from the intended scenario and that is why is giving the other pairing.
    Scott

  9. #9
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    When answering these sort of questions one should never assume anything that isnt stated by the person posing the question.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Possibly right and possibly wrong as there is insufficient information in the information provided to know which way to go.

    In both cases you need to know if players A and B have the same score and secondly if they do have the same score which player is ranked higher.
    Thanks all of you for the reply. Please forgive me for lack of info.
    Both players have the same score and A is the higher ranked.

    So, if I have understood, it depends by who is the higher ranked player while color alternation does not matter.

    Many thanks,
    Luigi

  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Case 1 is not adequately covered by the rules in my view. Applying E2 (Grant the stronger colour preference), neither player has an absolute or strong colour preference. Mild colour preferences are covered in A7c:

    A mild colour preference occurs when a player's colour difference is zero, the preference being to alternate the colour with respect to the previous game.

    Both A and B have colour difference zero. In A's case, there is a mild colour preference for white. In B's case, A7c seems to indicate that B has a mild colour preference, but as B has played no previous games, B has nothing specific to alternate to and there is no reason to consider that A-B grants B's colour preference any more or less than B-A does. But A-B clearly grants A's mild colour preference, while B-A clearly does not. I would allocate the colours A-B irrespective of the scores and the ranking of B. I cannot see any argument for the pairing B-A on any level as there is nothing to indicate that B has a colour preference for white.

    In case 2, both players have the same colour preference (a weak colour preference for white) so E2 is useless. E3 is also useless since there is no previous round in which the two players played with different colours (there are four rounds where they played with the same colours, and two where one played and one did not, which is not the same thing). Therefore apply E4, "Grant the colour preference of the higher ranked player." It is impossible to determine colours in this case without this information.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 17-05-2009 at 05:15 PM.

  12. #12
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    I would like to see the ranking list and the full parings for rounds 1 & 2 for case 1 and the ranking list and the full parings for rounds 1 - 6 for case 2.
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  13. #13
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Case 1 is not adequately covered by the rules in my view. Applying E2 (Grant the stronger colour preference), neither player has an absolute or strong colour preference. Mild colour preferences are covered in A7c:

    A mild colour preference occurs when a player's colour difference is zero, the preference being to alternate the colour with respect to the previous game.

    Both A and B have colour difference zero. In A's case, there is a mild colour preference for white. In B's case, A7c seems to indicate that B has a mild colour preference, but as B has played no previous games, B has nothing specific to alternate to and there is no reason to consider that A-B grants B's colour preference any more or less than B-A does. But A-B clearly grants A's mild colour preference, while B-A clearly does not. I would allocate the colours A-B irrespective of the scores and the ranking of B. I cannot see any argument for the pairing B-A on any level as there is nothing to indicate that B has a colour preference for white.
    One way one could possibly get the B-A pairing would be firstly if B outranked A and secondly using the argument that since E1 (grant both colour prefs) does not apply then the colour allocated to B requires that A does not get their colour pref.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    In case 2, both players have the same colour preference (a weak colour preference for white) so E2 is useless. E3 is also useless since there is no previous round in which the two players played with different colours (there are four rounds where they played with the same colours, and two where one played and one did not, which is not the same thing). Therefore apply E4, "Grant the colour preference of the higher ranked player." It is impossible to determine colours in this case without this information.
    Agree.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    One way one could possibly get the B-A pairing would be firstly if B outranked A and secondly using the argument that since E1 (grant both colour prefs) does not apply then the colour allocated to B requires that A does not get their colour pref.
    I considered whether it makes sense to consider the colour allocated to B at the start of the tournament, or the colour B would have received at the start based on odd/even ranking. But the colour received at the start has no stated bearing because it only dictates what colour a player receives in the first round (E5); the rules don't say anything about that player still having a preference for or against that colour in later rounds if they do not play round 1.

    Beyond that, I don't see how any colour can be allocated to B such that A doesn't get preference. There is no basis for doing so unless a decision is made to give B a specific weak colour preference arbitrarily or randomly.

    I did a trial with SP to see what it did in this situation (note: SP doing something is not evidence that it is right!)

    Code:
    Place   No Opponents Colours Float Score
    
                                            
     1-2   7 : 3,2,10    WWB           2    
          10 : -,4,7     -WW           2    
                                            
     3-8   2 : 6,7,5     WBB           1    
           3 : 7,9,8     BWB       u   1    
           4 : 8,10,9    WBW           1    
           5 : 9,6,2     BBW           1    
           8 : 4,-,3     B-W       d   1    
           9 : 5,3,4     WBB       d   1    
                                            
    9-10   1 : -,-,6     --W       d   0    
           6 : 2,5,1     BWB           0
    In this instance player 1 is rated 2000 and the remaining players have no rating. SP pairs 1-6 in the third round giving player 6 alternating colour.

    Not sure why SP says player 1 has had a downfloat though.

  15. #15
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Crosstable for above:

    Code:
    No  Name Feder Rtg  1    2    3 
    
    1.  j,         2000  :    :   6:
    2.  a,              6:W  7:L  5:
    3.  b,              7:L  9:W  8:
    4.  c,              8:W 10:L  9:
    5.  d,              9:L  6:W  2:
    6.  e,              2:L  5:L  1:
    7.  f,              3:W  2:W 10:
    8.  g,              4:L   :W  3:
    9.  h,              5:W  3:L  4:
    10. i,               :W  4:W  7:
    I manually changed the pairing 5 vs 6 in round 2 to 6 vs 5 so I could make sure the player playing vs 1 had had two different colours.

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