Have a look at what is being served up in SRE classes in some NSW state schools:
http://mike-stuchbery.com/2011/06/18...educated-kids/
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Have a look at what is being served up in SRE classes in some NSW state schools:
http://mike-stuchbery.com/2011/06/18...educated-kids/
Thanks pax that was gold. :lol:
I find it pretty frightening actually. Especially this:
"2. Kids are Lost. All have turned their back on God and deserve eternal condemnation in Hell. High School SRE is unashamed of this fact, and does not hesitate to teach it."
In state schools!?!
Yes I agree entirely very scary but surely he is so fundamental that moderate parents would complain about such material in a state scripture material.
I had a little poke around his website and all of it is pretty off-the-wall but I thought the page on the Boy-Man (or "ban") was comedy gold and stands to defy satire.
http://www.capstoneliving.org/stay-ban-boyman/
With "useful" advice like if you believe you are a ban and in a relationship with a girl then make plans to marry her soon or break up. It's funny that the advice to the female half of the relationship is different. According to Tim if you are a girl dating a "ban", then dump him. Full stop. End of story.
Of course it also paints the picture that all unmarried men are into video games and porn. And playing more than 2 hours of video games a week is somehow a problem that needs to be addressed by cutting back, telling an older christian and "praying hard".
Bizarre stuff. NSW as well. *sigh* I already despaired of the Vic version here: http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=12943
Not quite what the website says about video gaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
So it is porn not gaming that he recommends telling an older Christian and to pray hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.capstoneliving.org/stay-ban-boyman/
Scott
Yeah, whatever. Either way it is hilarious stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
So if you're a "ban" who's "into porn" you should get help and "Join a church, tell an older Christian, and pray hard." and if you're a "lady" who is single and wants a man who will love you, you should "join a church, tell an older Christian, and pray hard."
I'm guessing that once the formerly porn-loving ex-ban becomes a Christian the older Christian can marry the two of them off.
No it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
The perfect love story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
And I'm guessing a significant market share of internet porn is consumed by older christians. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
De gustibus non est disputandum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
I think the stuff that is being taught is perfectly okay to be taught in a church not in a state school. From what I have looked at it seems to me to be quite normal Christian teaching and although my beliefs differ significantly from some being put forward I do not see why it should not be taught in the right place. I think students should be taught what religions are out there, but not taught that they should believe or not believe any one religion.
Scott
And you mean???????Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_gust...st_disputandumQuote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
So you find it funny and I don't. What is your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
Scott
My point is the question of whether it is hilarious or not is a matter of taste and cannot be objectively resolved. I think it is hilarious firstly that anyone would hold such incredible beliefs and secondly that someone who does would be given the platform to promulgate these beliefs and people would say, "yeah that makes sense". But the world is full of weird ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
The second part of the humour for me is the obvious logical fallacies used by the author or he source material he quotes. For example in the boy-man piece he argues that Ban's exist and that they do not relate well to women and then quotes some factoids regarding internet porn where the implicit assumption is that internet porn consumers are largely made up of people that he would classify as "bans". However there is no justification for this claim. Secondly I'd like to see a longitudinal study examining the use of porn and the forming of long-term attachment as I'm not convinced that porn use would negatively correlate anyway. Certainly there no evidence of this claim made by the author.
The whole thing is just weird ideas, argued poorly and hilariously so. I recommend it! Three thumbs up. :lol:
And where did I disagree with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
I said it was hilarious you said it wasn't my next comment was simply stating that humour is matter of taste and so the question of its hilarity cannot be objectively resolved. Therefore there is no need to continue discussing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
I gave some reasons why I thought it was funny but by contrast you haven't given any reasons why it should be taken seriously and countered any of my arguments as to why it isn't just weird ideas that are poorly argued.
I don't think it, the article on Bans, should be seen as something that should be taken seriously, I just do not find it funny. It is probably based on great assumptions and is without any real substance. I also don't see anything wrong with the advice to get help and pray in general. As I said what is written on the site seems to be fairly normal Christian stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
Scott
I define normal christian stuff as Anglican/Catholic (something like 80% of people identifying as Christian in Australia also identify with one of these two faiths) - this guy sounds further towards the evangelical/charismatic end of the spectrum. Especially with claims likeQuote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
"Kids Are Lost. All have turned their back on God and deserve eternal condemnation in Hell." Scary stuff.
"High School SRE urgently wants to see students saved from the coming wrath and receive the gift of eternal life." The urgency relating to coming wrath is not mainstream - it's fundamentalism.
I long for the day when mainstream Christianity is fundamentalism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
I don't find the site funny either. De gustibus non est disputandum. Most of what that site says is fundamentalist Christianity.
Re the "Kids are lost" quote. This should always be considered in conjunction with the point that we all deserve eternal condemnation but because of God's grace we are given eternal life instead through Jesus's death for humankind on the Cross. We are all lost until we turn to Christ as our Saviour and Lord.
I would still say he is pretty much in line with alot I have dealt with, including Anglicans. Some probably believe that kids under a certain age go straight to heaven but I think most would think that high school students need to be saved, especially in the older years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
Then again there are Christians who confuse Noah and Moses and know very little of the Bible.
Scott
True - Tim's web site shows he is studying at Moore College - which is Anglican.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
Actually it's not a bad web site.
RW, hold my hand and I will lead you out of the madhouse, leave the others in their element
Moore college is Anglican but they are interdenominational and so not all their students are Anglican. I could be wrong but I would be surprised if Tim is Anglican. Elsewhere on his website it talks about having the ambition to plant a new church in Sydney which not not something the average aspiring Anglican minister would be considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamski
At turn of century that mob wanted to make Sydney 10 or 20% evangical, but the GFC pulled the rug out from out them. Hit them real hard, about 170 million I think. They had borrowed to speculate with. Just like they speculate with God.
Could Fred Nile be any more of a goose?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-0...a-nile/2826280
Moore College espouses and teaches a fundamentalist (read "conservative evangelical") theology to their students and has from its inception. Historically, Anglicanism in Sydney has been very conservative in contrast with the rest of Australia. Because evangelicalism and not historic Anglicanism is its defining characteristic, Moore does cater for those of evangelical persuasion. This would include most prospective Presbyterian students, some Baptists and the odd student from the Uniting Church. Moore does not appeal as much to charismatics, given its Zwinglian perspective of the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
Most church planters in Sydney and indeed around New South Wales have probably been educated at Moore, even if they are not Anglicans. Most of the church planting goes on with the passive blessing of the Sydney Diocese, who wish to entrench evangelicalism in Dioceses which have traditionally tolerated a more inclusive, less fundamentalist form of Anglicanism. This is not something that the Sydney Diocese would acknowledge, given that they do not wish to be perceived as undermining the authority of other Dioceses, but moves to incorporate Anglican and "non-denominational" churches outside the Sydney Diocese would hint towards their true agenda.
Moore is quite liberal: rabidly theistic evolutionist.
and we can takeit that that is a mortal sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono
Observation of the natural world never discovered anything true. Everyone knows the copious evidence for evolution was planted by the devil to trick people into thinking the bible was allegorical.Quote:
Originally Posted by antichrist
state schools should only be teaching state religion or nothing - why give free kicks to outsiders
Musssolini he did that trick in a deal with the RCC - they accepted his Facism in return for him letting Catholicism into state schools. And they both never really recovered from the deal
This is not really true. Catholicism was so prevalent in Italy at the time so there was no "letting in". Although Mussolini wanted complete control of education, he also wanted the acceptance of the church. Well sort of. What he actually wanted was the support of powerful people who would not otherwise support the Fascist party - however if they are seen to be accepted by the Church then they become more palatable - certainly more palatable that the Communists. So Mussolini and the church came to a number of agreements including religious indoctrination (under the auspices of the church) in primary and secondary state schools throughout Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by antichrist
Catholicism ceased being the official state-sponsored religion of Italy in 1984.
The linked sight was funny, if a tad perturbing, but I think this thread can serve the valuable purpose of discussing what should be done in state schools, perhaps spilling into the private sector as well.
My pre-school, primary and secondary education of religion and ethics was dismal. Truly, I believe ethics should be taught from a young age, being considered as necessary as humanities and sciences (non-social). Along with this you must inform, but not enforce, children of the different ethical systems within religions. Then, come secondary schooling, where streaming and electives occur, give students an option of further studying. Operate pre-tertiary as usual, a course in religion and ethics is offered. This, I believe, would help the economy, and certainly foreign image of this country, given the 'boat people' nonsense, by breaking down cultural barriers. If a child has studied, more to the point understood, Islam, then they are more likely to rationalise, acts of terrorism as extremists and review our own Christian/Catholic ethos with more scrutiny.
The private sector, being private, obviously see fit their way of running things and I think they are obliged at the moment to offer all the pre-tertiarys they can, religion and ethics included. However, I don't see this as being enough, considering, in most, chapel attendance is mandatory. Of course, the schools have their interests to protect, but I think as a government there are greater issues which include living up to our egalitarian ideals. If you are a parent I would take this upon yourself.
I'll put the essence of that waffle here. We need to teach ethics and acceptance as the world's population and cultures are no longer within their borders and information flows freely to even quite young people. A level of understanding this low would never be tolerate in mathematics, so why in something which is just as important?
Um, it wouldn't hurt to teach writing skills in schools either.
im feelin yo flow bruvaQuote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes
skoolinz be no place fo da bibles n effix..
leave da good wordz to be lernt in da hood wiv da real g's n boss dogz.
run da street n do da deeds. they is good lernin to fed da sole n da mindz.
peace out
Along with this you must inform, but not enforce, children of the different ethical systems within religions.
AC
I dont see any reason for this, unless done with a critical eye - as Hume said just by someone telling the story help makes a person believe. Lke just observing a person playing a poker machine can get one interested.
This is a fair enough comment, especially considering my college results. I consider myself inarticulate and often lacking clarity but I just hope I communicate enough of my ideas to allow people an understanding of my opinion so they can criticise it, then I can further clarify what was indecipherable, or as is often the case, outright ill thought out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes
Again fair criticism, however, I am not totally convinced. The purpose of this exposure is to reduce misunderstanding between groups of different beliefs. If someone exposed is converted to that belief, they will still be exposed to opposing beliefs giving them equal opportunity to change their mind and so forth. Seeing as this education is to continue until secondary age, perhaps even past it, students will be exposed to these ideas during adolescence, when most of us are individualising ourselves and reflecting on what we 'know'. Now, of course your analogy with Poker Machines is to put religion in a negative light, which I although I agree with, in some instances, cannot be when implementing such a change into main-stream education. I admit my beliefs may be very wrong, which is why we need equal exposure of many different beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by AC
what you are saying aint too bad just I went fru a religious school and I just hate anything to do with religion, I resent that adults can abuse children by teaching them such idiotic and cruel rubbish - it is disallowed in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child - but no one wants to know about that
Which serves as anecdotal evidence for my case. Do you think, if your school had provided balanced education about different belief systems, including ethical systems like Kantian ethics, utilitarianism, virtue ethicism etc, that you might not hold such animosity towards religion? I am also keen to hear about the Rights of the Child. I'll look it up unless you have a good link at your disposal.
I do think it is a good idea to teach children about the various religious and philosophical value systems. This should be done simply in the sense of factual coverage of the views and history of views of each system and should not be done by someone with a big stake in the matter. I am sceptical of the merit of making such a thing compulsory in primary school but maybe in highschool it would be useful.
However, for balance, just as ethicists would propose to include Kantian ethics (urgh), utilitarianism, virtue ethics etc, they should also include moral scepticism (the view that none of the ethical systems is philosophically valid) and also stuff like ethical egoism (the view that one's only obligation is to one's own interests). If ethics classes are just going to teach children that they have a rational obligation to be ethical and community-minded and there are a range of options as to how to do it, then that sort of thing is as bad as compulsory scripture.
I also think that any substantive comparative religion syllabus should include a brief and factual account of the various schools of modern and historic Satanism. About five minutes in a ten-week course would be sufficient. :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saragossa
That would be correct. I love philosophy but consider religion stupid, the good parts of it they stole (without attributation) from philosphers. I have no link for that UN document. Only hard copy.
I don't find what Kevin said objectionable at all. I remember reading an article about why young children should be taught ethics but it is nothing I would stake my opinion on. I think an investigation into the benefits of this sort of teaching should be undertaken to determine whether it is optimal to introduce it during high-school or primary. Ethical Egoism and Moral Scepticism teachings are seriously validated, just as I would advocate Religious Scepticism as a mandatory teaching anywhere religion is taught.
the school is no place for either ethics or religion. BOTH have the ability to be tampered with, fixing a suggestable individuals perception irrevocably.
keep school limited to maths science enlish social studies etc.
Unfortunately most of them can be tampered with too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice by Tappy !
good point, but spirtual/ethical quandaries are of a much greater importance than what the capital of greenland is or pi to a thousand places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
Jono's fellow christofascists are at it again.
Primary school abused over dropping Lord's Prayer
A state primary school in Perth has been inundated with hate mail after deciding to drop the recital of the Lord's Prayer at assemblies.
The Education Department says the Edgewater Primary School has received letters, emails and abusive phone calls from people around Australia, venting their anger at the decision.
The school dropped its 25 year tradition of saying the Lord's Prayer at assemblies after complaints from some parents that it breached state school policy, which states public schools should not promote one religious faith over another.
Looks like some people are happy with Australia being a secular society so long as it is a christian secular society. ;)
Not having seen this alleged hate mail, how do we know. But given that this school bureaucrat cancelled because of a vociferous minority of atheopathic parents, it's more likely he has a very low threshold for what counts as "abusive".Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
Bit of a double standard here. You imply scepticism concerning whether the "alleged hate mail" was necessarily hate mail (given that we have not seen it) but at the same time are happy to assert without evidence that the parents who complained must have been "atheopaths" - for all the article says they could have been Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, agnostics, deists or even Satanists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono
It also seems that the school is being targeted (including by the Premier) for correctly implementing a policy. If there was a policy that implied that "public schools should not promote one religious faith over another." then the Lord's Prayer should have been given the boot under that policy without waiting for even one parent to complain, unless it appeared alongside equivalent texts from other religious faiths and non-religious viewpoints. Bibliopaths ( :lol: ) who have an issue with what has happened should be targeting the policy instead of abusing the messenger.
I agree but the bigger double standard is Jono promulgates a highly dubious story without corroboration regarding the Islamic religion thus seeking to denigrate the "competition" without any critical thought. When presented with a story of Christian intolerance which is corroborated he questions its veracity without any evidence to support such denialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
Certainly the level of violence in both case is not comparable, it does seem likely the Norwegian story was mere fantasy.
Regarding Colin Barnett's response. He is the epitome of a gormless worm.
steady on there rincewind, colin isnt that useful. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
anyway, good to see christians spreading their love generously.
His only "use" would be to serve as a warning to others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice by Tappy !
we like to think of him as our "accidental premier". :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
Unfortunately for WA, "accidental" premiers have a habit of sticking around (with an increased majority) in their second term. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice by Tappy !
our sense of humour is quite an acquired taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind
julie bishop and wilson tuckey are further examples of this. :D
colin will most likely get re-elected. he doesnt seem to offend anybody due to the fact he hardly has an opinion on anything (except the mining tax which is just far too easy to deride out here in the quarry state.)
as for the hate mail im sure colin is paralysed in his usual somnulent quandry and is unable to discern what a secular institute is and how support for the removal of the prayer would affect the liberal partys christian demographic vote count come election time.
nice fence sitting by our glorious premier stating that " most people would believe the lords prayer is appropriate in a government school ". :wall:
obviously that statement will send the right message to all the gutless wonders writing and calling the school with their special brand of "dissatisfaction". :doh:
the story from "the west australian". - http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...-mail-barrage/
School acts after parents reject the teaching of scripture during class time
Spencer Park Primary School in Albany has informed its school community that it would discontinue with scripture classes after the school conducted a survey of parents and guardians.
As reported by the ABC in late October, the school launched a survey after parents complained that Christian scripture was taking up valuable learning time.
In its recent newsletter published on 18 November, the school announced that the majority of parents wanted scripture to be removed.
“Results from the survey indicated that the majority of parents do not support the continuation of Scripture in its current form,” the newsletter said.
“Based on this and other feedback the School Board has decided to cease the existing Scripture format from next year onwards. ...
Do not try to pervert childrens minds by exposing them to religious bullshit. There is no god, all religions are man made and totally false and have no part in our childrens education
I do not follow a particular religion. As far as my ''Faith'' is concerned - I believe there got to be some kind of ''higher powers/intellect'' (not sure what those are - could be God...could be some other force that we may not be even able to know/describe) but saying that ''all religions are bullshit'' is no different from saying all values/sets of beliefs that people have are bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
I am by no means supporting having religious classes in State schools irrespective of which particular religion we are referring to but parents/children have a right to follow any religious of their choice. Likewise, parents have a right to introduce their religions to their kids.
So 1) I agree with you that religious education should not be part of the state school system (beyond general cultural/society/history studies as religion has been big part of culture...so while studying history - issues where religion has been involved over the years will inevitebly get touched)
2) We need to treat those who follow/worship with respect.
My interpretation of a doc called something like Human Rights of the Child was that children should not be brainwashed but religions do it in all countries except China. But Chinese virus literally "washes" the brainQuote:
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
I'm fairly sure that North Korea would also be an exception. Of course, those countries have a state religion:Quote:
Originally Posted by antichrist
China will introduce the political ideology of the Chinese President in its national curriculum. "Xi Jinping thought" will help "teenagers establish Marxist beliefs", said the Ministry of Education (MOE) in new guidelines. The ideology will be integrated from primary school up to university.
Article 14 of the UN Commission On Human Rights of the Child states that children freedom of thought etc.
How can such freedoms be exercised if brainwashed or exclusively taught religion .
I consider it a crime against children to inculcate religion.
Now children's rights include freedom from pollution, greenhouse effects etc. It has certainly broadened over the decades.
Or telling young kids about ''white priviledge'' or that Black lives matter more. Putting white boys in front of the class and tell them to be ashamed...indeed. And taking time away from other subjects to teach Indigenous staff to those who may instead be willing to learn about things that they find more interesting/relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom
Students should be taught to look for truth, not what is spoon-fed to them in books. The history of humankind in Australia did not begin 250 years ago, when Black Lives Didn't Matter, but 60,000 years ago when the first humans arrived. That saga is not only true but also interesting/relevant. Our colonial history is only a small part of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
Curriculum adviser defends ‘turning up the amplifier’ on Indigenous history
Really? and what should students be taught in China? Who decides what is the truth and what is not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Murray
The aim of inquiry teaching is to teach students to search for truth themselves, rather than acceptance at face valueQuote:
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
So when students are being told about ''great value'' of Indigenous culture to all of us....it happens in a way that encourages students to question the value and decide for themselves...or the value is being imposed? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Murray
“What we’re doing is really exposing kids to the reality of what is Australia: it is multicultural; it is Indigenous; it is located with Asia all around us and it has a rich colonial history in which Aboriginal people have participated.”Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
You cannot teach the history of Australia without dealing with the time before It was called Australia and what happened thousands of years ago.
Participated, Yes! Multicultural- Yes! But without installing certain politically correct points into their minds and balancing time spent on different topics based on significanceQuote:
Originally Posted by Ian Murray
Is any of this part of the National Curriculum in Australia, as 'Xi Jinping thought' is in China?Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
See for yourself:Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
https://www.australiancurriculum.edu...PageLoad=false
https://learn.culturalinfusion.org.a...ginal-culture/Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Murray
Note word ''reconciliation''....emphasis that kids need to ''reconcile'' with someone...may be better let them decide if they feel there is a need for reconciiation or not.
Also, Would I be a kid, I would ask the teacher...why do I need to reconcile with my indigenous classmate...if we never had a fight before? Btw, I find Chinese history far more interesting :)...At least based on the works that I have been reading :).
Question for Scott:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
N.B Requesting others not to reply before him or comment on the question: Do you think it is important for schools to teach to write in Indigenous Languages?
P.S. REMINDER FOR OTHERS NOT TO REPLY/COMMENT :).
You really are a pathetic manQuote:
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
Sorry, Scott - had to check if you are aware there are no Indigenous language happens to be a ''written'' one. All others are not so fresh to chesschat so already aware at least from our prervious discussions on the forum....Got to check :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
Back in 2020, was having a chat to someone at MCC about Indigenous culture etc. and asked if he thinks we need to read Indigenous books....he said yes :).
Australian native culture is pre history which explains why it is not recorded in usual manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
So modern man had an unique opportunity to study and discover such but sadly 18th C modern society didn't really appreciate.
Within a few hundred years the industrial revolution has wrecked the planet. Look at the big picture "advancement" is not always good.
Some young people don't want offspring due to our tortured planet. Ans I can undertake taking into consideration the massive changes I have witnessed in seventy years.