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antichrist
23-07-2010, 11:18 AM
If you are genuinely seeking a response try to refrain from rude language.

The titles of Howard's thread are much ruder.

Goughfather
23-07-2010, 11:50 AM
If you are genuinely seeking a response try to refrain from rude language.

Why isn't Jono jumping up and down at this point accusing Igor of mimophantism and hypocrisy?

Oh, wait a sec, Igor's an ideologue from the right, which automatically validates behaviour that would be unacceptable if it came from someone from the left.

Igor_Goldenberg
23-07-2010, 12:09 PM
Why isn't Jono jumping up and down at this point accusing Igor of mimophantism and hypocrisy?

Oh, wait a sec, Igor's an ideologue from the right, which automatically validates behaviour that would be unacceptable if it came from someone from the left.
Could it be because it's not my habit to initiate rude exchange?
You, on the other hand, jump into personal attacks immediately.

Igor_Goldenberg
23-07-2010, 12:11 PM
If you are genuinely trying to stimulate debate, try to refrain from posting unsupported codswalllop.
If you think it's rubbish, try to post something that might demonstrate your point. Otherwise it's you who is just running his mouth.

Desmond
23-07-2010, 12:25 PM
If you are genuinely trying to stimulate debate, try to refrain from posting unsupported codswalllop.I read that as simulate first time. :lol:

Goughfather
23-07-2010, 12:51 PM
Could it be because it's not my habit to initiate rude exchange?

Perhaps this is part of the problem. You don't seem to have any self-awareness about your snide, aggressive and abusive demeanour on these boards. For as long as you remain oblivious to this fact, you will continue to behave in the same manner.

Capablanca-Fan
23-07-2010, 01:05 PM
Could it be because it's not my habit to initiate rude exchange?
You, on the other hand, jump into personal attacks immediately.
It has long been typical of the Lefty Anointed to attack their opponents rather than their ideas. E.g. opponents of welfare are greedy and don't care about the poor, whereas they care enough not to want them in poverty traps and are more generous with their own money (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html); supporters of a strong national defences are lovers of war and killing, although WW2 happened because the Allies were badly weakened militarily and Hitler was not deterred from aggression, and so on.

antichrist
23-07-2010, 01:24 PM
It has long been typical of the Lefty Anointed to attack their opponents rather than their ideas. E.g. opponents of welfare are greedy and don't care about the poor, whereas they care enough not to want them in poverty traps and are more generous with their own money (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html); supporters of a strong national defences are lovers of war and killing, although WW2 happened because the Allies were badly weakened militarily and Hitler was not deterred from aggression, and so on.

I thought what made the war a world war were all the alliances - if they pull your bra strap I will pull his jockstrap - there was all that sort of stuff between England and Poland etc and between :USSR and Germany

Igor_Goldenberg
23-07-2010, 02:36 PM
You don't seem to have any self-awareness about your snide, aggressive and abusive demeanour on these boards. For as long as you remain oblivious to this fact, you will continue to behave in the same manner.
Take a long look in the mirror.

Goughfather
23-07-2010, 07:10 PM
Take a long look in the mirror.

You seem a little surly today, Igor.

I don't think I've ever denied a malevolent element in my posts. In fact, I think I've even admitted that I take some kind of perverse satisfaction in making yourself, Howie and Jono look ridiculous. Of course, while none of you require my help in this respect, it's always fun to play a part.

You may wish to cast accusations against me that I have never sought to deny, but it is curious that you would jump up and down accusing others of poor behaviour while clearly seekly to minimise or even completely deny your own dreadful behaviour. Wake up, sunshine.

Igor_Goldenberg
23-07-2010, 09:03 PM
In fact, I think I've even admitted that I take some kind of perverse satisfaction in making yourself, Howie and Jono look ridiculous.
The only one ending up looking stupid is the one you see in the mirror.

Basil
23-07-2010, 09:56 PM
In fact, I think I've even admitted that I take some kind of perverse satisfaction in making yourself, Howie and Jono look ridiculous.
LOL. Last time we spoke you bumbled into arguing that the ALP was sexist, and when outed, you claimed it was your line all along with a quickly contrived 'no shit sherlock line'. Your early forays this year had you repeatedly outed as making all manner of claims without substantiation and in fact the only progress you appear to have made on this board is taking the berating I meted out to you, and parroting back it back verbatim to another poster some weeks later when you felt the shoe was on the other foot.

As if this isn't enough, you have a gold medal in claiming victory over all-comers, cumulatively more than every other poster on the board combined.

The tenor of your posts demonstrates regularly that you clearly have no concept whatsoever of the esteem in which others hold you.

antichrist
25-07-2010, 09:59 AM
Howard, now that Rudd has been disposed isn't this thread a bit redundant - do you enjoy dancing on his grave. I tried with Lloyd but got my ear twisted.

Kevin Bonham
30-07-2010, 12:50 AM
Comedy hour here folks:

Rudd unmanly and like a snake, says Latham (http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/7672346/rudd-is-unmanly-like-a-snake-latham/)

Basil
30-07-2010, 09:11 AM
Of course I have no idea who's spilling. Only 50% of me suspects Rudd (don't know which 1/2 :D) ). Within the twisted structure of the ALP, it could be any one of the disenchanted from the other side of the factional ditch, presently serving.

Desmond
30-07-2010, 10:07 AM
Comedy hour here folks:

Rudd unmanly and like a snake, says Latham (http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/7672346/rudd-is-unmanly-like-a-snake-latham/)
Who gives a toss what Latham thinks?

Igor_Goldenberg
30-07-2010, 10:22 AM
Of course I have no idea who's spilling. Only 50% of me suspects Rudd (don't know which 1/2 :D) )...
And the other 50% suspects Kevin.

Kevin Bonham
30-07-2010, 02:12 PM
Of course I have no idea who's spilling. Only 50% of me suspects Rudd (don't know which 1/2 :D) ). Within the twisted structure of the ALP, it could be any one of the disenchanted from the other side of the factional ditch, presently serving.

So far none of the leaks have proved that it is someone serving in Cabinet since Rudd was dumped. If a leaker could leak something post-Rudd it would suggest that Rudd is not the leaker, or at least not the only one, and it would indicate that Labor has an ongoing leak problem from an unknown source (probably a far more serious threat to them if true than just Rudd leaking.)

So (i) the leaker is Rudd, or (ii) the leaker is happy for people to think they are Rudd, or (iii) the leaker isn't Rudd but there's been nothing juicy enough since Gillard was elected.

Igor_Goldenberg
16-08-2010, 05:53 PM
Minister collapses during Rudd interview http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/minister-collapses-during-rudd-interview-20100816-1263n.html?from=age_ft


"I went to watch Kevin Rudd on TV as a matter of fact and I came over with some allergic reaction - it had nothing to do with Kevin Rudd - and as a result of that ended up passing out."

I am not sure about part of the quote and hidden it in white :):)

Hobbes
06-03-2011, 12:32 AM
Over the past few weeks there have been several Krudd puff-pieces in the papers that read as though they were written by the Rudd camp. So it was interesting to see this piece (http://www.smh.com.au/national/beware-the-return-of-rudd-say-old-mates-20110305-1bipx.html) - now that Gillard is in big trouble, it seems that there are Labor people who want to make sure it isn't Krudd who replaces her!

antichrist
06-03-2011, 06:56 AM
At least he pissed Howard off, he has done his part for Australia. He can be put out to pasture now. But I read he has even bought a mansion in Canberra to do his lobbying from.

Igor_Goldenberg
06-03-2011, 10:06 AM
Over the past few weeks there have been several Krudd puff-pieces in the papers that read as though they were written by the Rudd camp. So it was interesting to see this piece (http://www.smh.com.au/national/beware-the-return-of-rudd-say-old-mates-20110305-1bipx.html) - now that Gillard is in big trouble, it seems that there are Labor people who want to make sure it isn't Krudd who replaces her!
I didn't think anybody would manage to make Rudd look good. Gillard proved me wrong!

Capablanca-Fan
07-03-2011, 07:06 AM
I didn't think anybody would manage to make Rudd look good. Gillard proved me wrong!
Rudd's final downfall was the mining tax grab, and now Gillard is imposing a useless tax she promised not to impose.

antichrist
13-06-2011, 07:02 PM
Let me be the first to say; actually I said it 18 months ago, but I was indeed first when I said it then ... Kevin Rudd is a pretentious, economically clueless, artful-manipulator-of-the-unsaid-sentiment, twit. He is also an utter utter utter utter utter waste of space who achieves very little at great expense. Please remember when history judges him so, that you heard it first on 'Gunner Prime Time'.


AC
now gunner do you feel like the poor Qld guy a break? The opinion polls are going his way now I think

Capablanca-Fan
15-06-2011, 09:35 AM
Let me be the first to say; actually I said it 18 months ago, but I was indeed first when I said it then ... Kevin Rudd is a pretentious, economically clueless, artful-manipulator-of-the-unsaid-sentiment, twit. He is also an utter utter utter utter utter waste of space who achieves very little at great expense. Please remember when history judges him so, that you heard it first on 'Gunner Prime Time'.


AC
now gunner do you feel like the poor Qld guy a break? The opinion polls are going his way now I think
Seems like Gunner was amply vindicated when KRudd's own party rolled the pompous ass.

Hobbes
21-09-2011, 07:47 PM
Teaser from Andrew Bolt:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/but_i_doubt_it_will_work/

Kevin Bonham
22-09-2011, 10:40 PM
Now I see there are many reports of Coalition sources saying Rudd is very close to having the numbers - between five and eleven votes short.

That's odd because if Rudd was really that close to having the numbers and wanted the leadership then he would simply run for it now. If there was a spill and Gillard won so narrowly her leadership would be destroyed and Rudd would make a second challenge and defeat her a few months down the track.

Igor_Goldenberg
23-09-2011, 10:52 AM
Could it be a mistyping and instead of being five-eleven voters short he actually has between five and eleven votes in total (out of about a hundred)?

Basil
07-10-2011, 10:33 PM
the more you get to know the less you like him

Referring to Kevin Rudd!

A Latham special in an episode of tonight's Contrarians where he managed a serve for almost everyone on both sides.

Hobbes
18-02-2012, 10:33 PM
[Warning - video contains swearing, not work safe - mod]

uOUFKZBpFTY

MantaMan
19-02-2012, 11:18 AM
Priceless Hobbes - looks liek he might be our new PM soon.

If Juliar had and political sense she would bring on a spill ASAP - but on her past performances - her political judgement has been so poor that she won't

-mm

Kevin Bonham
19-02-2012, 09:16 PM
If Juliar had and political sense she would bring on a spill ASAP - but on her past performances - her political judgement has been so poor that she won't

That tactic has to be timed really carefully. Bringing on a spill while your opponent apparently doesn't have the numbers can be interpreted as a sign of panic that your opponent will soon get the numbers and can result in numbers swinging to the opponent. Also it is easy to throw out a leader when they call the spill themselves and all you need do is vote against them in a secret ballot; trickier if the opponent has to judge the time to "bring it on". My impression is this trick fails more often than it works and when it has worked the success is often temporary (eg Crean held off Beazley with it in June 2003 but resigned in November that year.)

I think it works best when sprung on a noisy loudmouthed sort of challenger while they are ill-prepared so that the challenger is seen to have wimped out. But Rudd has been doing his best not to give any public direct signs that he wants it.

Jay
20-02-2012, 08:43 AM
Good political summary Kevin.

I read a good piece in the weekend Aus by Peter Van Onselen (sp??) (Inquirer section I think) about Julia's political judgement, where the reporter indicated that he thought her judgement was generally poor and it seemed like a well crafted argument. ( I agree that selective reporting can be used to bias an argument)

Anyway - looks like it is "on for young and old" now. In Qld -think Bligh is secretly hoping Krudd gets back in, as it probably her only chance up here.

- J

Capablanca-Fan
26-02-2012, 12:22 AM
:lol:

Capablanca-Fan
26-02-2012, 09:48 AM
Swan has written the Liberal Party's campaign ad if the ALP are ever foolish enough to go back to KRudd … A lot of nonsense about Gillardova though.

Wayne Swan on Kevin Rudd (http://www.scribd.com/doc/82413770/Wayne-Swan-on-Kevin-Rudd)

Prime Minister Gillard and I and the overwhelming majority of our colleagues have been applyingour Labor values to the policy challenges in front of us and we're succeeding despite tremendous political obstacles.

For the sake of the labour movement, the Government and the Australians which it represents, we have refrained from criticism to date. However for too long, Kevin Rudd has been putting his own self-interest ahead of the interests of the broader labour movement and the country as a whole, and that needs to stop.

The Party has given Kevin Rudd all the opportunities in the world and he wasted them with his dysfunctional decision-making and his deeply demeaning attitude towards other people including our caucus colleagues. He sought to tear down the 2010 campaign, deliberately risking an Abbott Prime Ministership, and now he undermines the Government at every turn.

He was the Party's biggest beneficiary then its biggest critic; but never a loyal or selfless example of its values and objectives. For the interests of the labour movement and of working people, there is too much at stake in our economy and in the political debate for the interests of the labour movement and working people to be damaged by somebody who does not hold any Labor values.

Julia has the overwhelming support of our colleagues. She is tough, determined, forward-looking,and has a good Labor heart. She has a consultative, respectful relationship with caucus while Kevin Rudd demeaned them. She's cleaned up a lot of the mess he left her and has established a good, Labor agenda. She's delivering major reforms, and getting things done that her predecessor could not [helped by a lie "No Carbon Taxes in a government I lead—Jono].

Colleagues are sick of Kevin Rudd driving the vote down by sabotaging policy announcements and undermining our substantial economic successes.The Labor Party is not about a person, it's about a purpose. That's something Prime Minister Gillard has always known in her heart but something Kevin Rudd has never understood.

Damodevo
26-02-2012, 11:05 PM
Its all very well for Swan, Conroy and the like to come out and now announce to us all what a dictator Rudd was but then if he was that bad and injurious to parliamentary democracy then why didn't they do the principled thing and object at the time?

From Catallaxy

The recent attacks on Kevin Rudd by Julia Gillard, Wayne Swan, Simon Crean, Stephen Conroy, Nicola Roxon and others suggests that they are unfit for office. These people actively supported Rudd as Cabinet ministers (and previously as Opposition front-bench members) and showed no courage in bringing him to heel. Did they threaten to resign unless he mended his ways? Did they actually resign? No, the lily-livered creatures cowered while Rudd ran roughshod over Cabinet processes and Cabinet government.

When Conroy stated that Rudd

had contempt for the cabinet, contempt for the cabinet members, contempt for the parliament

why didn’t we see Conroy’s resignation from Cabinet?

Instead it took some backroom and faceless men to depose Rudd, while Gillard didn’t have the courage to keep him on the backbench and/or expel him from the Labor Party.

Well Rudd is back – and the weak lily-livered Cabinet ministers will buckle once again and serve the tyrant.

Third-raters one and all. (http://catallaxyfiles.com/2012/02/25/why-didnt-they-just-resign/)

Basil
27-02-2012, 04:55 AM
...

For these reasons, Kevin Rudd makes us nauseous.


Apparently a significant proportion of the present government agrees!

antichrist
27-02-2012, 07:55 AM
Apparently a significant proportion of the present government agrees!

but for many others, that is the best percentage of the Aussie population he is a hero for saving their jobs and investments. Some close to me will never forget him for saving their nest eggs and jobs in their last years before retirement that they were really counting on.

Ian Murray
27-02-2012, 08:17 PM
He was never the same after being rat-f****d by the Chinese in Denmark :P

antichrist
27-02-2012, 10:30 PM
He was never the same after being rat-f****d by the Chinese in Denmark :P

he was sabotaged internationally and internally and he gets the blame for it.

Agent Smith
29-02-2012, 06:15 AM
http://poorlydressed.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/fashion-fail-why-so-sad1.jpg

Basil
26-06-2013, 10:11 PM
time to reach for the pills again, folks!

Sir Cromulent Sparkles
26-06-2013, 10:26 PM
time to reach for the pills again, folks!

Straight after i visit the water closet. ;)

antichrist
26-06-2013, 11:08 PM
time to reach for the pills again, folks!
But he a qlder like yourself and rudd goes to Church!

Desmond
27-06-2013, 07:49 AM
I wonder if the numbers in parliament hadn't been so tight whether Rudd would have been booted out of the party yonks ago.

Kevin Bonham
27-06-2013, 10:32 AM
I wonder if the numbers in parliament hadn't been so tight whether Rudd would have been booted out of the party yonks ago.

That or disendorsed. The hung parliament was a dream hand for him.

antichrist
27-06-2013, 10:44 AM
but Labor folk lore is that you don't usually boot out the one who got you back into power. And deservedly so. If he could have succeeded internationally with ETS he would have been a hero around the globe but was sabotaged by commo China and capitalist USA - both earth ruiners

Hobbes
27-06-2013, 11:00 AM
but Labor folk lore is that you don't usually boot out the one who got you back into power

But labor folklore is also that there is a special place in hell reserved for labor rats (labor people who, for example, leak to the press damaging stories about labor in order to damage their election results). A dilemma for them, hey?

antichrist
27-06-2013, 11:19 AM
But labor folklore is also that there is a special place in hell reserved for labor rats (labor people who, for example, leak to the press damaging stories about labor in order to damage their election results). A dilemma for them, hey?

spot on bro, now we have leader of the rat pack - may they live in interesting times. Those independents are all decent guys in my book, incl Kattar the Lebo

Capablanca-Fan
28-06-2013, 09:02 AM
Kevin Rudd's darkest days (http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/1825/kevin-rudd's-darkest-days)
IPA REVIEW ARTICLE
Sinclair Davidson

The failings of the Rudd government were largely economic; its successes were symbolic. Rudd was a utopian-he had a vision for Australia, but in the end the cost of imposing that vision was too high. The great English philosopher Michael Oakeshott argued political leaders should not impose their visions for a better world on the broader population, ‘if it is boring to have to listen to the dreams of others being recounted, it is insufferable to be forced to re-enact them.' Rudd was insufferable and worse; his behaviour and temper tantrums had become more erratic and public over time. Oakeshott continues, ‘We tolerate monomaniacs, it is our habit to do so, but why should we be ruled by them?' Indeed.


Hayek had written a chapter in The Road to Serfdom entitled ‘Why the worst get on top'. In that chapter Hayek had warned on expediency becoming a moral imperative. When the end justifies the means individuals are cut off from all moral moorings and any sort of poor behaviour is justifiable. Rudd was very expedient and this contributed to his government's greatest failure-the mismanagement of the global financial crisis. But the pointers to that failure were clearly visible early in his term of government.

One of the major problems with the second stimulus package is that the Treasury massively over-estimated the impact of the global financial crisis on the Australian economy.


The other problem is that an extraordinarily large amount of money needed to be spent in a very short period of time.


It would also turn out that no system on earth could deliver promised spending of almost $60 billion in just four months without hitting some big implementation snags.


This must be one of the greatest understatements in Australian history. The home insulation scheme that the government had introduced to provide employment to low-skilled individuals lead to four deaths and over 180 house fires. As much as the government has tried to argue that individuals and householders and the states should take responsibility for the debacle, the public have been clear as to where to lay the blame. The Building the Education Revolution expenditure has also proven to be controversial with The Australian newspaper running stories about waste almost every day.


What is missing from the Taylor and Uren account is any of the economic debate that occurred within Australia. They discuss the government and Treasury views and much about the opposition, yet there is no mention of economists outside those circles. The fact of the matter is the government was unwilling to listen to any opinions it didn't like. In the discussion of Malcolm Turnbull's advice, Taylor and Uren argue:



With the benefit of hindsight, his ideas may have avoided a lot of the government's subsequent problems, but the government rejected them entirely. Its reaction was immediate and scathing.

Igor_Goldenberg
28-06-2013, 03:44 PM
Rudd is definetely a good bullshitter media performer, arguably the best in current parliament. The shine was wearing off before he was knifed three years ago. Did he get some that teflon back playing victim in the last 3 years? If so, how long will it last? We'll be stuck with ALP for another three years if he manages to fool enough people this time.

ER
28-06-2013, 04:51 PM
... We'll be stuck with ALP for another three years if he manages to fool enough people this time.

In which case it serves you absolutely right for seeking Julia's demise!

BTW

1) watch the polls in a) one b) two weeks after Rudd's return and c) one week before the fed elections

2) (according to my calculations) the green vote will be much more decisive in a future Senate than it is now

3) (according to my calculations) the independent vote will be much more effective in a future Upper and the next Lower House than it is now!

Igor_Goldenberg
28-06-2013, 05:06 PM
In which case it serves you absolutely right for seeking Julia's demise!

Indeed, replacing Julia with Kevin creates an unnecessary disbalance :)

antichrist
28-06-2013, 05:27 PM
both the problems associated with the home insulation scheme and the school buildings were mainly problems of corrupt, inept or greedy business people, contractors for example.

Since when has it been the federal govt's responsibility to monitor BLB ( or Builders Corp now )?

The education buildings were fantastic and badly over due. Toilets in some public schools prior to that were shocking etc etc. But they were quite okay in grammar schools that were oversubsidised by the Howard Govt

ER
28-06-2013, 07:41 PM
Indeed, replacing Julia with Kevin creates an unnecessary disbalance :)

:lol:

I heard the new cook at the KYMA restaurant, across the road from Leo's, is even better than the old one.

I 'll keep you posted after my return from my European summer break! :)

ElevatorEscapee
29-06-2013, 02:57 PM
... Toilets in some public schools prior to that were shocking etc etc. But they were quite okay in grammar schools that were oversubsidised by the Howard Govt

How do you know? I hope you haven't been perving over toilet walls! ;)

ER
30-06-2013, 12:49 AM
1) watch the polls in a) one b) two weeks after Rudd's return and c) one week before the fed elections





ALP and Coalition neck and neck in poll!!!

OUCH!!!

More here:

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2013/06/30/ALP_and_Coaltion_neck_and_neck_in_poll_883774.html

antichrist
30-06-2013, 06:49 AM
How do you know? I hope you haven't been perving over toilet walls! ;)
No need to as the toilet cubicles did not have doors in the run down old schools. The students or some would hold on to they went home. Data was 3rd world standard. That education building fund was fifty years too late:eh: :eh: :mad:

antichrist
30-06-2013, 06:50 AM
The Smileys above are by accident.t. cozy fingers too big and auto formatting

Capablanca-Fan
30-06-2013, 11:09 AM
“The ego has landed.”—Barnaby Joyce on the return of KRudd.

Kevin Bonham
30-06-2013, 12:36 PM
“The ego has landed.”—Barnaby Joyce on the return of KRudd.

Another instance of takes one to know one. If Barnaby's ego ever landed the shockwave would result in the extinction of 90% of all life on earth.

antichrist
30-06-2013, 12:40 PM
Another instance of takes one to know one. If Barnaby's ego ever landed the shockwave would result in the extinction of 90% of all life on earth.
And Barnaby is only a country bumpkin - not an intelligent Guy like Windsor

antichrist
30-06-2013, 12:41 PM
Nor the passion nor compassion of Kattar.

Capablanca-Fan
30-06-2013, 12:46 PM
Another instance of takes one to know one. If Barnaby's ego ever landed the shockwave would result in the extinction of 90% of all life on earth.
Come off it; KRudd is the most narcissistic politician in Australia. The only one coming close is TalkBull.

antichrist
30-06-2013, 12:53 PM
Come off it; KRudd is the most narcissistic politician in Australia. The only one coming close is TalkBull.
The whole Lib (who are anti liberal) party suffer from a delusion that they are divinely ordained to rule

Kevin Bonham
30-06-2013, 01:11 PM
Come off it; KRudd is the most narcissistic politician in Australia. The only one coming close is TalkBull.

There are a lot of contenders for that title on all sides and people tend to perceive those opposed to their views as being the worst offenders.

Capablanca-Fan
30-06-2013, 03:25 PM
How Rudd the dud dropped Australia in the alphabet soup (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/how-rudd-the-dud-dropped-australia-in-the-alphabet-soup-20100221-ontz.html)
Paul Sheehan, The Age, 22 February 2010

Rarely has a government promised so much, spent so much, said so much, and launched so many nationwide programs, and delivered so little value for money and expectation. Two years of Kevin Rudd has produced 20 years of debt, and most of it cannot be blamed on the global financial crisis. This alphabet soup is self-inflicted.

Debt and deficit. The Rudd government inherited a massive $90 billion financial firewall when it came to office, via a federal budget surplus, the Future Fund and two infrastructure funds. In two years the budget has gone from $20 billion in surplus to $58 billion in deficit. Net federal debt has gone from zero to a projection of between $130 billion and $180 billion. It took the previous government 10 years to dismantle the $96 billion debt mountain that it inherited. It took Rudd one year to build it back up again.

ETS. The Copenhagen climate conference was a disaster. Rudd's emissions trading scheme is abstract, complex, expensive and polls show about 80 per cent of Australians do not understand or trust it. A T-shirt produced by Newcastle steelworkers distils the political problem: "Rudd's ETS: Higher Prices. Lost Jobs. 0.001 degrees cooler."

Fuelwatch. Big promise, empty outcome.

Grocerywatch. Ditto.

Hospitals. Ditto.

National broadband network. Last year the Rudd government spent $17 million looking for a private partner to co-build the network. The process yielded nothing. The government will now build and operate the network itself at a cost of $43 billion. A money sink.

Opposition theft. The Rudd government inherited the strongest budget position and banking sector of any major Western economy, which protected Australia from the global financial crisis. The government pretends this was all its own work.

Power. The national solar power rebate is a political debacle. The GreenPower scheme has failed. The renewable energy trading certificates scheme is in disarray.

Rincewind
30-06-2013, 10:35 PM
Wow. The right must really feel threatened.

antichrist
01-07-2013, 07:01 AM
But did sheehan say that climate change or global heating is not happening or.not an important issue? Selfish immoral humans are not the only species on the planet and we are not the only generation of humans. There are 7 billion ruddy humans due to the mentality of Joni and stupid religions plus improved Medicine./

Kevin Bonham
01-07-2013, 12:22 PM
Note that the Sheehan article is from Rudd's previous reign - dated 2010.

Rincewind
01-07-2013, 12:54 PM
Note that the Sheehan article is from Rudd's previous reign - dated 2010.

Thanks I had thought the leadership change had precipitated a lot of anti-Rudd editorials.

Hobbes
01-07-2013, 02:26 PM
Thanks I had thought the leadership change had precipitated a lot of anti-Rudd editorials.

Many of the anti-Rudd articles to come will be provided by backgrounding and leaks from his comrades in the ALP, not by the scary right.

Rincewind
01-07-2013, 03:43 PM
Many of the anti-Rudd articles to come will be provided by backgrounding and leaks from his comrades in the ALP, not by the scary right.

You may be right but I would expect more of that post election (regardless of result) rather than pre.

Capablanca-Fan
01-07-2013, 11:06 PM
You may be right but I would expect more of that post election (regardless of result) rather than pre.
But we already have that, considering all the top-ranking Labor ministers who have resigned rather than serve under KRudd again.

Capablanca-Fan
01-07-2013, 11:07 PM
Note that the Sheehan article is from Rudd's previous reign - dated 2010.
Hence my article title: A good reminder of KRudd's incompetence.

Rincewind
02-07-2013, 12:39 AM
But we already have that, considering all the top-ranking Labor ministers who have resigned rather than serve under KRudd again.

They are not media leaks. They're politicians who have said or done some career limiting things. If you make your bed you have to lie in it.

Kevin Bonham
02-07-2013, 08:20 PM
Unfortunately, Rudd has appointed Senator Jacinta Collins as Minister for Mental Health and Ageing; Sen Collins' track record on social issues (anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia, anti-LGBTI-equality in various forms) suggests she should not be allowed near either portfolio. Hopefully she won't be there long enough to do anything.

Capablanca-Fan
03-07-2013, 04:19 AM
Unfortunately, Rudd has appointed Senator Jacinta Collins as Minister for Mental Health and Ageing; Sen Collins' track record on social issues (anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia, anti-LGBTI-equality in various forms) suggests she should not be allowed near either portfolio. Hopefully she won't be there long enough to do anything.
So Rudd does something good after all (http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2013/07/02/foolishness-masquerading-as-informed-commentary/) :P

Kevin Bonham
03-07-2013, 12:44 PM
O'Brien's article is here (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/seewhatsusiesays/index.php/heraldsun/comments/mental_health_min_should_not_be_anti_gay_and_anti_ abortion/)

Muehlenberg is so consumed with his anti-abortion ranting that he quite misses the point: the responsibility of a minister for mental health is not to uphold his ideological gibberish about "unborn babies" (which he rather oddly considers to be members of society) but rather is to the mental health of the living.

I wouldn't place any trust in Muehlenberg's abilities to analyse psychological health data accurately, but for starters it is erroneous to count Sydney as being idyllically pro-gay when same-sex marriage is still not allowed for its inhabitants. (Ditto San Francisco since 2008 until last week.)

To give an example of Muehlenberg's dodgy use of evidence, in his column (http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2010/10/21/just-what-is-behind-these-suicides/) "Just What is Behind These Suicides?" he writes:


A simple way to test this is to look at places where homosexuality is very much accepted, such as in nations like Holland, or cities like San Francisco. One would expect less suicide and other mental health problems amongst homosexuals in these places. But that is not the case. There is as much if not more suicide and related problems in these localities. So homophobia cannot be to blame.

As one commentator puts it, “Studies done in the Netherlands and New Zealand, for example, where there is generally high tolerance of sexual ‘diversity,’ found the same high rates of psychological difficulties as those done elsewhere.” A number of international studies have borne this out.

Now he doesn't cite any evidence for the first part but at least the second part should be traceable. So I googled for the Netherlands/NZ quote and eventually found (http://thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=4810) that the source is One Man, One Woman: : A Catholics Guide to Defending [sic] Marriage by Dale O'Leary. Far from being any kind of reliable authority, O'Leary is one of Muehlenberg's fellow anti-SSM hacks who is involved with the kind of anti-gay "therapy" even Exodus gave up on and who has argued such things as that radical feminism is "a psychological disorder caused by two generations of unforgiveness in the maternal line." In other words, a fruitcake.

Muehlenberg also writes: "A panel convened by such groups as the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Psychological Association, and the American Association of Suicidology made this finding: “There is no population-based evidence that sexual orientation and suicidality are linked in some direct or indirect manner”." What he doesn't mention is that this claim dates from 1995, a time at which the question of a link was controversial because of the lack of adequately controlled studies. It is easy to find studies that cite that reference and provide evidence that there is a link. Example (http://www.yapmn.com/publications/Suicidality%20in%20a%20Venue%20Based%20Sample%20of %20YMSM.pdf). Example 2 (http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=346930).

Muehlenberg's use of the existing evidence on the subject is demonstrably untrustworthy so no-one should take any unreferenced claim he makes about the subject of LGBTI-mental health links seriously.

antichrist
03-07-2013, 01:01 PM
concerning the gay suicides, in Sydney certain deaths were registered as suicides by police though highly suspicious, were probably hate crimes upon gays by malicious males who can't tolerate diversity or anything that threatens themselves, or they may want to hide their own homosexual leanings, so want to appear tough against gays.

antichrist
03-07-2013, 01:04 PM
the funny part is that Gillard was originally from the left (though pragmatic when suited) and against gay marriage, whilst Rudd from the centre or Right and now for gay rights

I think that Gilliard just did not want to alienate voters anymore, already a barren, live-in, with patsy boyfriend, plus atheist and red hair and intelligent and a fighter and backstabber just like the boys

Kevin Bonham
03-07-2013, 01:14 PM
No; more likely Gillard was under the thumb of the obnoxious Joe de Bruyn, as is Collins.

Capablanca-Fan
04-07-2013, 04:36 AM
Muehlenberg is so consumed with his anti-abortion ranting that he quite misses the point: the responsibility of a minister for mental health is not to uphold his ideological gibberish about "unborn babies" (which he rather oddly considers to be members of society) but rather is to the mental health of the living.
If the unborn aren't living, I don't know what to call them. But kudos for KRudd for a change for not giving into the ranting of feminazis and other supporters of prenatal baby butchery.


I wouldn't place any trust in Muehlenberg's abilities to analyse psychological health data accurately, but for starters it is erroneous to count Sydney as being idyllically pro-gay when same-sex marriage is still not allowed for its inhabitants. (Ditto San Francisco since 2008 until last week.)
Yet both were extremely gay-friendly places. Sydney supports the "gay Mardi Gras", and San Fran is well known as a homosexual hot-spot.


Far from being any kind of reliable authority, O'Leary is one of Muehlenberg's fellow anti-SSM hacks who is involved with the kind of anti-gay "therapy" even Exodus gave up on and who has argued such things as that radical feminism is "a psychological disorder caused by two generations of unforgiveness in the maternal line." In other words, a fruitcake.
I wouldn't want to speculate on causes of radical feminism, but it is indeed a psychological disorder.


Muehlenberg also writes: "A panel convened by such groups as the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Psychological Association, and the American Association of Suicidology made this finding: “There is no population-based evidence that sexual orientation and suicidality are linked in some direct or indirect manner”."
The point of Muehlenberg's article was to show that the absurdly named "homophobia" can't be blamed for gay suicides. Nothing has changed that. Nor has anything changed about the demonstrable risks of male-on-male sex. Even now, blood donors are asked if they have had male-on-male sex, and usually refused if they have.

antichrist
04-07-2013, 08:13 AM
Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
Muehlenberg also writes: "A panel convened by such groups as the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Psychological Association, and the American Association of Suicidology made this finding: “There is no population-based evidence that sexual orientation and suicidality are linked in some direct or indirect manner”."

AC
I thought in OZ there is a link amongst rural youth due to alienation and discrimination they face, esp amongst those who were brought up to hate ""poofters"" who then hated themselves. They even have awareness campaigns up here about it, a rural area.

antichrist
04-07-2013, 08:39 AM
Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
Far from being any kind of reliable authority, O'Leary is one of Muehlenberg's fellow anti-SSM hacks who is involved with the kind of anti-gay "therapy" even Exodus gave up on and who has argued such things as that radical feminism is "a psychological disorder caused by two generations of unforgiveness in the maternal line." In other words, a fruitcake.

Jono
I wouldn't want to speculate on causes of radical feminism, but it is indeed a psychological disorder.

AC
I know women who have no feminism education but are still radical feminists, I may have even married one or two of them - may I live in interesting times

Capablanca-Fan
04-07-2013, 10:53 AM
Christian vote may punish Kevin Rudd over gay marriage (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/special-features/christian-vote-may-punish-kevin-rudd-over-gay-marriage/story-fnho52jj-1226673931452)
JESSICA MARSZALEK FEDERAL POLITICS REPORTER NEWS LIMITED NETWORK JULY 03, 2013

KEVIN Rudd has betrayed voters over his new stance on gay marriage and should be prepared for a backlash from the powerful "Christian vote", churches say.

Pentecostal and Evangelical Christians, as well as Catholics, say they have been deeply disappointed in the Prime Minister's new stance, after he successfully courted them at the 2007 poll.

The Australian Christian Lobby believes its followers played a part in delivering the Lodge to Mr Rudd in his last bid and have been betrayed as he turned on his values "on the whims of pop culture".

Rincewind
04-07-2013, 11:49 AM
Christian vote may punish Kevin Rudd over gay marriage (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/special-features/christian-vote-may-punish-kevin-rudd-over-gay-marriage/story-fnho52jj-1226673931452)
JESSICA MARSZALEK FEDERAL POLITICS REPORTER NEWS LIMITED NETWORK JULY 03, 2013

KEVIN Rudd has betrayed voters over his new stance on gay marriage and should be prepared for a backlash from the powerful "Christian vote", churches say.

Pentecostal and Evangelical Christians, as well as Catholics, say they have been deeply disappointed in the Prime Minister's new stance, after he successfully courted them at the 2007 poll.

The Australian Christian Lobby believes its followers played a part in delivering the Lodge to Mr Rudd in his last bid and have been betrayed as he turned on his values "on the whims of pop culture".

The fact of the matter is that we live in a democracy in which approximately 60% of people believe that same-sex marriage should be allowed. Whether Rudd's views are based on the "whims of pop culture" is a little beside the point unless the Christian lobby claims that the views of all people who disagree with them (including the majority of Australians) are all based on the "whims of pop culture". Of course, they probably do believe that but that is because they are a bunch of dismissive god-botherers more interested in imposing their brand of religiosity on the wider community.

Kevin Bonham
04-07-2013, 12:12 PM
If the unborn aren't living, I don't know what to call them.

How many of them visit psychiatrists for assessment?


But kudos for KRudd for a change for not giving into the ranting of [ranting descriptions snipped].

I'd suggest he just wasn't aware that Collins would be an unpopular choice in certain quarters. Despite his recent conversion to SSM he's not exactly au fait with SSM issues as his recent suggestion of a plebiscite or referendum on the issue shows. (Those more familiar with those issues know that public votes on them tend to result in rather nasty campaigning and to a result that's on average eight points lower than otherwise polled support. Therefore SSM is more smoothly delivered by parliamentary vote in most cases.)


Yet both were extremely gay-friendly places. Sydney supports the "gay Mardi Gras", and San Fran is well known as a homosexual hot-spot.

The point being that there is still minority stress in either case. Perhaps there always will be to some degree since not all homophobia can be legislated away. Also, not all of Sydney (for example) is like that.


I wouldn't want to speculate on causes of radical feminism, but it is indeed a psychological disorder.

Some think the same about creationism. I suspect the "evidence" for the two views being automatic indicators is equally flimsy (ie they're not).


The point of Muehlenberg's article was to show that the absurdly named "homophobia" can't be blamed for gay suicides.

What I've demonstrated is that Muehlenberg's use of supporting evidence is unsound. Therefore, why should we believe any claim he fails to support with data?

Kevin Bonham
04-07-2013, 12:16 PM
KEVIN Rudd has betrayed voters over his new stance on gay marriage and should be prepared for a backlash from the powerful "Christian vote", churches say.

Obama was given similar warnings and was re-elected easily. SSM isn't a big vote-mover on either side despite Christian lobby scaremongering. The same is also true of abortion.

Sir Cromulent Sparkles
04-07-2013, 12:17 PM
hes still the most annoying prime minister weve ever had. :(

time to bring back julia !! :D

Capablanca-Fan
05-07-2013, 03:34 AM
Obama was given similar warnings and was re-elected easily. SSM isn't a big vote-mover on either side despite Christian lobby scaremongering. The same is also true of abortion.
In the USA, they don't have "compulsory" voting, and many lazy or "above political fray" Christians stayed home. They also don't have preferential voting, so the third party votes that a number of moronic Christians cast were a wasted vote.

Capablanca-Fan
05-07-2013, 03:36 AM
How many of them visit psychiatrists for assessment?
How many two-year-olds do?

Igor_Goldenberg
05-07-2013, 11:47 AM
Coroner's finding re insulation death could be very damaging to Rudd.
The timing couldn't be worse for him (and better for LNP). The cynic inside me doubts that release of the finding at that time is pure coincidence.

Is state coroner a political appointment?

antichrist
05-07-2013, 12:01 PM
It should not be damaging to Rudd at all. The coroner blames the supervisors etc, that is the contractors and companies responsible for installing such. If they could not handle the orders they should not have taken on so many jobs. I had them knocking on my door every second day wanting a contract. It is the companies fault for not having proper supervision or properly trained staff. You can blame that on John Poopy Howard for not incentivating big companies to allocate positions for apprentices. That is why we have the 457 visa workers from overseas. All for profit today and not investing in skilled workers for the future like used to happen before 457.

And the LP/NP state govts have taken funds away from TAFTS that provided the education of apprentices.

That's where you get it.

Kevin Bonham
05-07-2013, 12:55 PM
Coroner's finding re insulation death could be very damaging to Rudd.
The timing couldn't be worse for him (and better for LNP). The cynic inside me doubts that release of the finding at that time is pure coincidence.

Is state coroner a political appointment?

Not sure what the appointment procedure is but I did find out he has been there since 2003 so he's not a recently appointed LNP toady.

antichrist
05-07-2013, 01:18 PM
Christian vote may punish Kevin Rudd over gay marriage (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/special-features/christian-vote-may-punish-kevin-rudd-over-gay-marriage/story-fnho52jj-1226673931452)
JESSICA MARSZALEK FEDERAL POLITICS REPORTER NEWS LIMITED NETWORK JULY 03, 2013

KEVIN Rudd has betrayed voters over his new stance on gay marriage and should be prepared for a backlash from the powerful "Christian vote", churches say.

Pentecostal and Evangelical Christians, as well as Catholics, say they have been deeply disappointed in the Prime Minister's new stance, after he successfully courted them at the 2007 poll.

The Australian Christian Lobby believes its followers played a part in delivering the Lodge to Mr Rudd in his last bid and have been betrayed as he turned on his values "on the whims of pop culture".

Jono, you are ignoring a sad mob lost in nomans land'- that is Christians who are also completely gay and no chance of help from Exodus, who have surrendered and folded up anyway. I know a Christian born again preacher who is gay, as is his brother. What do you say to him if he finds true love and wants to marry?

Basil
05-07-2013, 10:42 PM
The coroner blames the supervisors etc, that is the contractors and companies responsible for installing such.
Agreed.

But the coroner ALSO laid blame with 2 x Labor governments (State and Fed). However, there's enough grey area for Fed Lab to fudge the accusation that Labor couldn't oversee a piss-up in a brewery UNLESS the memos to Rudd warning him of the over-cooking and under-training hot pot. Apparently Garrett sent 4 of the 10 letters Rudd received.

antichrist
05-07-2013, 10:44 PM
Agreed.

But the coroner ALSO laid blame with 2 x Labor governments (State and Fed). However, there's enough grey area for Fed Lab to fudge the accusation that Labor couldn't oversee a piss-up in a brewery UNLESS the memos to Rudd warning him of the over-cooking and under-training hot pot. Apparently Garrett sent 4 of the 10 letters Rudd received.

if it was supervised properly the switchboard should have been switched off and they use battery powered tools etc. And with circuit breakers and earth leakage protection there is not much opportunity for death

antichrist
15-07-2013, 11:32 AM
after Rudds win I am sure I can find an old mouldy ten pound note somewhere to refund Gunnar duggan when he departs back to the Old Country - back to the warm beer

Desmond
01-08-2013, 04:08 PM
If Rudd were to win and then subsequently get knifed again by his own party, would that make him the only PM to have been knifed twice?

Kevin Bonham
01-08-2013, 04:22 PM
If Rudd were to win and then subsequently get knifed again by his own party, would that make him the only PM to have been knifed twice?

No PM has been removed from office as a result of losing his party's leadership twice.

Billy Hughes either lost or left the leadership of the Labor Party in 1916 when he crossed the floor to form the Nationalists, remaining in office as PM and being expelled from the ALP in the process. Then in 1923 Hughes was essentially knifed (resigned under pressure) as PM and Nationalists leader because he had lost his majority and the Country Party would not work with him. That's probably the closest precedent.

Hobbes
01-08-2013, 04:50 PM
Tweets from a Fairfax political reporter:

http://blogs.news.com.au/images/uploads/ruddhate_thumb.png (http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/same_as_kev_ever_was/)

Kevin Bonham
01-08-2013, 05:07 PM
Quite a lot of discussion of those tweets, the role of journos re unstated-sources gossip etc, if you go to Swan's twitter homepage

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan

and click expand on each of the tweets.

I think some of the complainers are trying to hold his tweets to the same standard they think should apply to published journalism. But it's not clear whether this is anything but a few people with grudges - yet.

Kevin Bonham
01-08-2013, 05:09 PM
More about the Nathan Lambert thing here:

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/federal-election/prime-minister-kevin-rudd8217s-youngest-son-marcus-joins-labor8217s-digital-campaign-team/story-fnho52ip-1226689100368

Capablanca-Fan
03-08-2013, 12:26 PM
The $250bn cost of Kevin Rudd: a tale of waste and spending (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/the-250bn-cost-of-kevin-rudd-a-tale-of-waste-and-spending/story-fn59niix-1226690463570)
BY:HENRY ERGAS AND JUDITH SLOAN From: The Australian August 03, 2013

THE era of Kevin, interrupted by the Julia interlude, has been a roller-coaster ride. Having promised Howard-lite and fiscal conservatism, the excuse of the global financial crisis unleashed a period of rapid growth in government spending, successive budget deficits and mounting public debt under Kevin Rudd's guidance.

Now, with Rudd's return, Labor has launched a charm offensive that seeks to whitewash the past: it is as if aliens from Mars, fortunately departed, had been in charge. But the damage of that era cannot be wiped out so easily.

antichrist
03-08-2013, 12:35 PM
what about the billions wasted in killing innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan that had absolutely nothing to do with Australia - also bombed out their infrastructure - why dont you mention that initiated by the LIbs.

Unrepentant murderers those libs are, same as what they did in Vietnam

Rincewind
03-08-2013, 12:52 PM
BY:HENRY ERGAS AND JUDITH SLOAN From: The Australian August 03, 2013

Reading tripe like this I can fully understand Jono's position of the left bias in the media. I mean it is really disgraceful. And given that Professors Ergas and Sloan are both academics, Jono incessant whinging about the left bias in academia is also fully justified. I mean the evidence is simply damning.

Capablanca-Fan
03-08-2013, 01:28 PM
Reading tripe like this I can fully understand Jono's position of the left bias in the media. I mean it is really disgraceful. And given that Professors Ergas and Sloan are both academics, Jono incessant whinging about the left bias in academia is also fully justified. I mean the evidence is simply damning.
The Australian is one of the few exceptions. Polls of journalists consistently show a strong leaning to the Left. RW probably prefers the far-leftatheopatic The Age.

Rincewind
04-08-2013, 12:39 PM
The Australian is one of the few exceptions. Polls of journalists consistently show a strong leaning to the Left. RW probably prefers the far-leftatheopatic The Age.

Not living in Melbourne I don't find the Age at all relevant. However despite the Australian being "the exception" I see that you must consider the Telegraph must be a left wing rag. I mean with commos like Piers Ackerman writing his left leaning diatribe for the last 20 years. The Telegraph even prints that other prime Stalinist: Andrew Bolt, so it is amazing that Australia isn't already a Socialist state with pinkos like that loose in the media (with the one exception of The Australian).

Rincewind
06-08-2013, 06:01 PM
Here is another example of the pro-left bias at The Telegraph...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-06/tele-front-pgjpg/4868814

Desmond
06-08-2013, 08:07 PM
I like his nickname... Kevin Kardashian

Patrick Byrom
13-02-2017, 12:49 AM
Kevin Rudd's darkest days (http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/1825/kevin-rudd's-darkest-days)
IPA REVIEW ARTICLE Sinclair Davidson
...
This must be one of the greatest understatements in Australian history. The home insulation scheme that the government had introduced to provide employment to low-skilled individuals lead to four deaths and over 180 house fires. As much as the government has tried to argue that individuals and householders and the states should take responsibility for the debacle, the public have been clear as to where to lay the blame. The Building the Education Revolution expenditure has also proven to be controversial with The Australian newspaper running stories about waste almost every day.
...
Actually, the fire risk (and death rate) was less than expected (https://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/10/19/insulation-fire-risk-%E2%80%93-the-data-is-in/), given the number of installations:

In previous years, around 85 fires per year occurred that were linked to insulation coming from about 65,000 installs of insulation every year. We know this because it was reported by the Department, the Hawke Report and the Australian National Audit Office report. Over the total period from when the insulation program started until when the fire incident numbers (not the rate but the total numbers) reduced back to normal, there were 1.21 million installations completed and 197 fire incidents reported. ...

And I bet there are a lot of people over the past weeks who would have been very happy that their house was insulated with the help of the Federal Government, keeping them cooler and saving them a heap of money on electricity costs. Not to mention the reduction in greenhouse gases caused by reduced power usage.

Capablanca-Fan
13-02-2017, 01:39 AM
Actually, the fire risk (and death rate) was less than expected (https://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/10/19/insulation-fire-risk-%E2%80%93-the-data-is-in/), given the number of installations:

In previous years, around 85 fires per year occurred that were linked to insulation coming from about 65,000 installs of insulation every year. We know this because it was reported by the Department, the Hawke Report and the Australian National Audit Office report. Over the total period from when the insulation program started until when the fire incident numbers (not the rate but the total numbers) reduced back to normal, there were 1.21 million installations completed and 197 fire incidents reported. ...

And I bet there are a lot of people over the past weeks who would have been very happy that their house was insulated with the help of the Federal Government, keeping them cooler and saving them a heap of money on electricity costs. Not to mention the reduction in greenhouse gases caused by reduced power usage.

Ah yes, the old fallacy that the great Frnech economist Frédéric Bastiat pointed out over 150 years ago: you consider only what is seen, but ignore what is not seen: the better use of this money if spent by ordinary people on what they want instead of what the government imposed. See What Is Seen and What Is Not Seen (http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html), especially the section Public Works, since modern economic ‘stimulus’ policies are essentially the same.

Patrick Byrom
13-02-2017, 12:23 PM
Ah yes, the old fallacy that the great Frnech economist Frédéric Bastiat pointed out over 150 years ago: you consider only what is seen, but ignore what is not seen: the better use of this money if spent by ordinary people on what they want instead of what the government imposed. See What Is Seen and What Is Not Seen (http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html), especially the section Public Works, since modern economic ‘stimulus’ policies are essentially the same.Exactly my point - the insulation, and its obvious benefits, was unseen, while the fires and deaths were very visible. And people were free to not spend the subsidy.

Capablanca-Fan
13-02-2017, 12:29 PM
Exactly my point - the insulation, and its obvious benefits, was unseen, while the fires and deaths were very visible. And people were free to not spend the subsidy.

Talk about reversing Bastiat's point by 180°. But leftists have chronic economic incomprehension.

Patrick Byrom
13-02-2017, 01:08 PM
Talk about reversing Bastiat's point by 180°. But leftists have chronic economic incomprehension.Was Bastiat opposed to spending government money to protect people against external threats such as invasions or natural disasters? Rudd's spending was to protect people against heatwaves.