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eclectic
19-07-2004, 08:02 PM
Mornin' boys!

I had the pleasure of catching the train to work this mornin' with one of Australia's surest future super-GMs. Of course we got to talkin' about the Mt Buller event (or, as he keeps calling it - Mt Bullerton). He didn't know where this bloody place was! Had to carefully explain it to him. He ain't going unless there's a minimum of 5 GMs. AR

so what are the conditions needed for the open at mt buller for it to be one where title norms could be obtained?

anyone?

eclectic

Kerry Stead
20-07-2004, 03:22 AM
so what are the conditions needed for the open at mt buller for it to be one where title norms could be obtained?

anyone?

eclectic

Its the same as for any other tournament as far as I know, however I believe a country can have one tournament per year exempted from the usual requirement of having players from 4 countries competing in the event. Typically this is the national championships ... and in Australia's case its usually the Open/Championship.
3 titled players minimum (3 x IMs for IM norm; 3 x GMs for GM norms) need to be played by a player, and the required performance rating achieved based on the field that they play.
Unless there's something different, or a change that I don't know about ... I suspect that Bill G will correct me if I am wrong anyway ...

Bill Gletsos
20-07-2004, 11:34 AM
Its the same as for any other tournament as far as I know, however I believe a country can have one tournament per year exempted from the usual requirement of having players from 4 countries competing in the event. Typically this is the national championships ... and in Australia's case its usually the Open/Championship.
3 titled players minimum (3 x IMs for IM norm; 3 x GMs for GM norms) need to be played by a player, and the required performance rating achieved based on the field that they play.
Unless there's something different, or a change that I don't know about ... I suspect that Bill G will correct me if I am wrong anyway ...
I dont think I've ever had the need to correct you Kerry. ;)

I'm not sure if the latest requirements are listed on the FIDE web site or not. FIDE has been pretty hopeless at maintaining areas of their site.
I think the 2nd edition of Reuben's handbook is correct.
Gary Bekker should know for sure.
I'd believe that Ian Rogers would also know.

Ian_Rogers
20-07-2004, 04:10 PM
It's almost impossible to score a GM norm in an Australian Open - although Johansen did it in Adelaide 1990/1.
This is because you need an average field of FIDE 2400+ as well as 3GMs. With just a few low rated opponents you hardly have a chance to reach the required category, even with lots of 2500 GMs in the field.

Ian

Oepty
20-07-2004, 04:39 PM
The below was taken from the SACA website at www.sachess.org

Howard departs: George Howard will be leaving temporarily his position as SACA president in order to move to Mount Buller and organise the many chess events this December/January. Michael Peake will be SACA President in his absence.

arosar
21-07-2004, 11:40 AM
Hey everybody....I see some cheap airline fares to NZ. Anyone interested in going to NZ for 2 Jan - 12 Jan event instead of going to this Mt Buller business? After the tourn, we can do a bit of touring sippin' some fine Kiwi pinot noir.

AR

Oepty
21-07-2004, 12:44 PM
In addition to my previous post I understand Tristom Cooke will be taking over as SACA Secretary for the same period of time. I am not sure as to whether the change in SACA president has taken effect yet. Garvin perhaps you know more seeing you put my post in the Annoucements thread.
Scott

arosar
21-07-2004, 12:52 PM
Garvin perhaps you know more seeing you put my post in the Annoucements thread.

Yeah...word-for-word too, without attribution. Thievin' bast.ard!

AR

AES
21-07-2004, 09:09 PM
George is no longer SACA president.
The next president is decided at the AGM in February next year.

george
21-07-2004, 10:22 PM
Hi All,

Michael Peake is Acting President of SACA till first Sunday in Feb next year(AGM). I asked to have some workload relieved as Main Organiser Mt Buller Tourneys, President SACA and ACF was too much - cant do all the jobs justice!

George Howard

george
23-07-2004, 04:30 PM
Hi ALL,

If you are thinking of staying at the Chalet and want a room with a kitchen BOOK NOW - a few have already been booked for the entire Open and Juniors.

First in best dressed - you have been warned.

The rooms at the Chalet really are incredible value but its up to you!!

Regards
George Howard

Libby
23-07-2004, 04:44 PM
Hi ALL,

If you are thinking of staying at the Chalet and want a room with a kitchen BOOK NOW - a few have already been booked for the entire Open and Juniors.

First in best dressed - you have been warned.

The rooms at the Chalet really are incredible value but its up to you!!

Regards
George Howard

Thanks for the encouragement and in the ACT we have been actively promoting those details we have been able to scrounge via the BB and by ringing direct. It's a little bit unfair however, to expect a lot of people to be steamrolling into making bookings when info is in short supply or very non-specific.

At the risk of producing - yet another - very long email this is text from a Mt Buller Update that I sent out to our ACTJCL people. The fax didn't arrive as quickly as promised so I have still not had the chance to look at the room plans.

"Accommodation is available in 65 rooms with 50 well appointed, spacious king or twin rooms and 11 luxury one bedroom suites with a separate lounge, all with ensuite bathrooms. Third or fourth people in a room will be on a pull-out couch or a roll-away bed. (ie when they suggest a room sleeps 4, they mean with 2 sharing the fold-out couch).

The organising committee have come up with two basic prices

Room with 3 children only = $90 and includes continental breakfast Extra child add $20
Room with 2 adults only = $120 and includes full breakfast. Extra adult add $50

I have had a couple of conversations with Roman from the Mercure to try to tie down some prices for the mix of adult and child occupancies people would like for the junior tournaments. It seems to come down to the basic room price being about $120 if any adult is in the room - a little more for those rooms with kitchens. (Not all rooms have kitchens so if you are after a room with a kitchen this is another reason to get your planning started!) The price is negotiable and Roman wanted to stress that the Mercure will help out in any way they can to make the Chalet a good option for people. For example, reductions in price will be considered if you want to go without the breakfast or if you only want your room serviced every third day. They will also consider reductions for long stays. (I clarified today that they regard a long stay as about a month - ie staying for 2 events - not the 2 weeks of the Aus Jnr for example). How much the reduction might be was hard to pin down but (for example) he suggested the room might be $100/night if you stayed for a month OR a third person might stay for no charge if you stayed for a month.

Roman is faxing the hotel plans to Jenni today (I don't have a fax). We will try to have the plans available for people to look at this weekend at the ANU and at places like the junior clubs, Tuggeranong & Belconnen. They indicate those rooms already booked. If you know what you are looking for (ie if a view is important, kitchen, bath and/or shower, interconnecting rooms etc) it would be a good idea to choose a room that suits you, options that suit you (breakfast, room servicing etc) and decide on your length of stay - then we can get you a price.

If you do not stay at the Mercure you will not have use of the Mercure facilities. They include - 24 hr Reception, Apres Bar & Cafe, Baby Sitting, Buller Ski Hire, Conference Facilities, Indoor Heated Pool, Guest Library, Gym & Squash Courts, Luggage Storage, Massage Therapist, Pool Table, Restaurant & Bar, Room Service, Sauna, Spa & Steam Rooms. The pool is normally open to any member of the public from 3-7pm daily and I have asked the organisers to clarify that this will still be the case and also if the general public may eat in the restaurants (as you would expect in most hotels in normal circumstances.) Activities on offer in Mt Buller during Summer are listed @ http://www.mtbuller.com.au/activities/summer.html "

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

jenni
23-07-2004, 06:22 PM
Hi ALL,

If you are thinking of staying at the Chalet and want a room with a kitchen BOOK NOW - a few have already been booked for the entire Open and Juniors.

First in best dressed - you have been warned.

The rooms at the Chalet really are incredible value but its up to you!!

Regards
George Howard
I have been told that someone booking a room for the whole period i.e. Open and Aus Juniors obtained a 1 bedroom unit with kitchen for $120 for 2 adults and 2 children. This price included breakfast, so a pretty good deal. The unit consists of a bedroom, a little lounge room and kitchen.

Garvinator
23-07-2004, 06:26 PM
I have been told that someone booking a room for the whole period i.e. Open and Aus Juniors obtained a 1 bedroom unit with kitchen for $120 for 2 adults and 2 children. This price included breakfast, so a pretty good deal. The unit consists of a bedroom, a little lounge room and kitchen.
i take it that its $120 per night, not for the whole period :cool:

PHAT
23-07-2004, 07:18 PM
... incredible value ...

$120 for a bed and toast. Yep, I cannot believe it either.

And WOW. $2800 for a month of playing pool, sitting in a streamroom (in summer), not skiing, and receiving messages from the free Reception.

Get real you guys. It should be $25 per head per day, full stop. Any more is a not any kind of special deal. If Rwoman wants to show support/sponsorship of this event, he will say $25 pp and that's that.

Ian Rout
23-07-2004, 07:56 PM
It's a little bit unfair however, to expect a lot of people to be steamrolling into making bookings when info is in short supply or very non-specific.

While we're ferreting out information, is the schedule posted anywhere, in particular the start time on the first day and the finishing time on the last day, to facilitate decisions on whether to arrive/leave on the day (and for that matter are the dates still as per the original schedule)?

Apologies if it has already been mentioned, but the information is all over the place - perhaps the ACF webmaster could be prevailed on to put up a page of essentials?

Garvinator
23-07-2004, 08:04 PM
While we're ferreting out information, is the schedule posted anywhere, in particular the start time on the first day and the finishing time on the last day, to facilitate decisions on whether to arrive/leave on the day (and for that matter are the dates still as per the original schedule)?

Apologies if it has already been mentioned, but the information is all over the place - perhaps the ACF webmaster could be prevailed on to put up a page of essentials?
Ian, this is why the mt buller announcements section has been created, so important posts dont get lost in the noise.

the organisers are currently finalising details regarding playing times, formats etc. George will have more info on this when he posts. My suggestion is to email George at georgeshoward@hotmail.com.

Details of plans should be with the secretary of the acf council now.

arosar
23-07-2004, 08:57 PM
And WOW. $2800 for a month of playing pool, sitting in a streamroom (in summer), not skiing, and receiving messages from the free Reception.

That's why I think these junior folks shouldn't rush in. It's sad that jenni has been duped into all this. It's a bloody rip-off I reckon. That's what I'm tellin' me homies. No way we're forkin' out that kinda dough. I actually think that to be spendin' that kinda money - we'd be better off hopping over to NZ for their 112th Congress.

AR

cincinnatus
23-07-2004, 09:03 PM
It would be too pedantic an exercise to count exactly how many By-laws and
constitutional clauses the ACF Council has broken by awarding these three events to a non-affiliate (i.e. not a State Association), but shouldn't we be particularly careful about financial procedure, since carelessness in this regard is most likely to cause grief down the track.

From the By-laws for ACF Tournaments:

"...
23. b. Tournament Cheque Account

The ACF may require the organisers of any ACF event to open a separate cheque account for the tournament into which all tournament income is to be paid. The signatories for this account are to be

Group A: Two signatories nominated by the organising committee.

Group B: One signatory nominated by the responsible state association and one signatory nominated by the ACF.

All cheques must be signed by two signatories, one from Group A and one from Group B

...

24. Upon granting the right to hold an ACF event to a state association or other body the ACF may nominate a person to be the ACF nominee on the organising committee. The ACF nominee on the organising committee shall be entitled to attend all meetings of the organising committee but shall not be entitled to vote at such meetings. He is to make the organisers aware of their responsibilities to the ACF in running the tournament and to inform and liaise with the ACF."

I don't see an Organising Committee. I see an oligarchy.

Who are the signatories of the recently set-up $20,000 account?

Rincewind
23-07-2004, 11:12 PM
It would be too pedantic an exercise to count exactly how many By-laws and
constitutional clauses the ACF Council has broken by awarding these three events to a non-affiliate (i.e. not a State Association), but shouldn't we be particularly careful about financial procedure, since carelessness in this regard is most likely to cause grief down the track.

From the By-laws for ACF Tournaments:

"...
23. b. Tournament Cheque Account

The ACF may require the organisers of any ACF event to open a separate cheque account for the tournament into which all tournament income is to be paid. The signatories for this account are to be

Group A: Two signatories nominated by the organising committee.

Group B: One signatory nominated by the responsible state association and one signatory nominated by the ACF.

All cheques must be signed by two signatories, one from Group A and one from Group B

...

24. Upon granting the right to hold an ACF event to a state association or other body the ACF may nominate a person to be the ACF nominee on the organising committee. The ACF nominee on the organising committee shall be entitled to attend all meetings of the organising committee but shall not be entitled to vote at such meetings. He is to make the organisers aware of their responsibilities to the ACF in running the tournament and to inform and liaise with the ACF."

I don't see an Organising Committee. I see an oligarchy.

Who are the signatories of the recently set-up $20,000 account?

How are these by-laws broken if they only say may?

Garvinator
23-07-2004, 11:30 PM
It would be too pedantic an exercise to count exactly how many By-laws and
constitutional clauses the ACF Council has broken by awarding these three events to a non-affiliate (i.e. not a State Association), but shouldn't we be particularly careful about financial procedure, since carelessness in this regard is most likely to cause grief down the track.
i would like you to count them and then list them here. But ill start with this one . Your claim doesnt even get past the first sentence of the section on procedures for allocating acf tournaments:

1. The organisation of an ACF title event (as listed in clause 2 of the ACF Tournament By-Law) may be granted by the ACF Council to:-

a. The ACF.

b. An affiliated State Association.

c. An affiliated body which has the consent of its State Association to organise the event.


As has been said on in previous announcements and posts, the acf is running the tournaments with George Howard being the main organiser. The other organisers are:

Garvin Gray
Kerry Stead
Andrew Saint
Alex Saint
Jenni Oliver
Jeo

I would recommend reading the other posts that have been made before posting again.

Cheers,

Garvin

jenni
25-07-2004, 07:31 PM
That's why I think these junior folks shouldn't rush in. It's sad that jenni has been duped into all this. It's a bloody rip-off I reckon. That's what I'm tellin' me homies. No way we're forkin' out that kinda dough. I actually think that to be spendin' that kinda money - we'd be better off hopping over to NZ for their 112th Congress.

AR

I haven't been duped in. :) I am still not happy with the Mt Buller option, but I am pragmatic. It is going to happen whether I am involved or not. I have a very strong attachment to the schools comp and I want to see the kids have a good time and have it done properly and most of the organising committee are very inexperienced in the schools comp.

I can sulk in a corner, or I can get in and run the schools and make sure it is done properly - I know which one I am going for.

Incidentally if you don't want to stay at the Mercure there are plenty of cheap lodges around. It really isn't the Mercure or nothing. However I do think $120 per night for 4 people is pretty cheap for that quality of accommodation.

Garvinator
25-07-2004, 09:57 PM
Incidentally if you don't want to stay at the Mercure there are plenty of cheap lodges around. It really isn't the Mercure or nothing. However I do think $120 per night for 4 people is pretty cheap for that quality of accommodation.
yes there are plenty of other options. Looking at the facilities that the mercure offer, the up front price basically means you are paying for them at the start, as opposed to paying a smaller price and then shelling out for each session for tennis, gym etc.

cincinnatus
25-07-2004, 11:30 PM
ggrayggray,

From the minutes of the ACF Council meeting (post #13):


... whilst he (GH) would be happy to indemnify the ACF from any financial losses, he also thought that it was appropriate in that case that if there was a profit made, there should be a 50/50 split of any profits between the ACF and the organiser.

A sentiment apparently supported by Council in general and Kevin Bonham in particular (#19).


It is only fair and is no different from what would have happened had a State Association been running the bid instead

Fair, perhaps, laudable indeed, but continuing our discussion on how the Constitution and By-laws are being "bent" with the very clause you quote.


procedures for allocating acf tournaments:

1. The organisation of an ACF title event (as listed in clause 2 of the ACF Tournament By-Law) may be granted by the ACF Council to:-

a. The ACF.

b. An affiliated State Association.

c. An affiliated body which has the consent of its State Association to organise the event.

Kevin Bonham misrepresents the case when he says:


Every state association knows that if your bid makes a profit the organisers get 50% and the ACF gets 50%.

since there is no provision for a private organiser to form one of the parties in this venture, especially as to the sharing of profits. What every state association truly knows (ask NSWCA re: Brian Jones) is that if the Association's bid makes a profit it is free to share its part of the profits (50%, after the ACF takes its cut) any way it chooses.

So you can't have it both ways. Are the Mt. Buller events being organised by the ACF, in which case the ACF takes 100% of the profits, or are they being organised by the ACF in partnership with a non-affiliate (each to take 50%) in which case the ACF is in breach of its Constitution?

Furthermore, with GH as both the ACF's representative and the individual standing to substantially benefit from any profits earned, you have an indisputable case of conflict of interest.

"ACF Constitution
...
2. Statement of Purpose
...
b. The Federation shall not be carried on for the purpose of trading or securing pecuniary profit to its members."

Still with the Constitution and finance, and further to my queries of #269 concerning the fate of the $20,000 which you failed to answer:

"11. Finance

a. All moneys received by the Federation must be paid into an account in the name of the Federation at a bank and branch approved by the Council.

b.All cheques, drafts, bills of exchange, promissory notes and other negotiable instruments must be signed by two persons approved by the Council, one of whom must be the President, Deputy President, Secretary or Treasurer."

Judging by the order of postings in this thread, the Organising Committee would not have materialised in time to see this done. Perhaps I am wrong, so, gg, from your privileged vantage as part of the Organising Committee can you tell me if you are a Group A signatory or a Group B signatory?

And a question from my first post again:

Who are the signatories of the recently set-up $20,000 account?

P.S.

The minutes of the July ACF Council meeting show that "that CV did not endorse or support the Mt Buller events, even though the event is being held in Victoria (... and ...) if there was any adverse outcome from the organization and/or conduct of the events in Mt Buller,it should be acknowledged that this Council decision was made without the support of CV". CV could not have wanted these events too badly, or it would have invoked, Clause 18 of the By-laws for ACF Tournaments:

"18. Where the Council has determined the state where a tournament will be held, the Council shall not withdraw the tournament from that state unless:

a. the State Association consents thereto; or

b. the State Association has seriously neglected its duties in relation thereto or does not comply with these by-laws."

Chess Victoria know a dead horse when they see it.

Garvinator
26-07-2004, 12:15 AM
since there is no provision for a private organiser to form one of the parties in this venture, especially as to the sharing of profits. What every state association truly knows (ask NSWCA re: Brian Jones) is that if the Association's bid makes a profit it is free to share its part of the profits (50%, after the ACF takes its cut) any way it chooses.

So you can't have it both ways. Are the Mt. Buller events being organised by the ACF, in which case the ACF takes 100% of the profits, or are they being organised by the ACF in partnership with a non-affiliate (each to take 50%) in which case the ACF is in breach of its Constitution?

Furthermore, with GH as both the ACF's representative and the individual standing to substantially benefit from any profits earned, you have an indisputable case of conflict of interest.

"ACF Constitution
...
2. Statement of Purpose
...
b. The Federation shall not be carried on for the purpose of trading or securing pecuniary profit to its members."

Still with the Constitution and finance, and further to my queries of #269 concerning the fate of the $20,000 which you failed to answer:

"11. Finance

a. All moneys received by the Federation must be paid into an account in the name of the Federation at a bank and branch approved by the Council.

b.All cheques, drafts, bills of exchange, promissory notes and other negotiable instruments must be signed by two persons approved by the Council, one of whom must be the President, Deputy President, Secretary or Treasurer."

Judging by the order of postings in this thread, the Organising Committee would not have materialised in time to see this done. Perhaps I am wrong, so, gg, from your privileged vantage as part of the Organising Committee can you tell me if you are a Group A signatory or a Group B signatory?

And a question from my first post again:

Who are the signatories of the recently set-up $20,000 account?

P.S.

The minutes of the July ACF Council meeting show that "that CV did not endorse or support the Mt Buller events, even though the event is being held in Victoria (... and ...) if there was any adverse outcome from the organization and/or conduct of the events in Mt Buller,it should be acknowledged that this Council decision was made without the support of CV". CV could not have wanted these events too badly, or it would have invoked, Clause 18 of the By-laws for ACF Tournaments:

"18. Where the Council has determined the state where a tournament will be held, the Council shall not withdraw the tournament from that state unless:

a. the State Association consents thereto; or

b. the State Association has seriously neglected its duties in relation thereto or does not comply with these by-laws."

this might sound like a buck pass, but as George Howard is chief organiser and the one that is taking a financial risk, i will let him answer these questions.

Bill Gletsos
26-07-2004, 12:27 AM
What cinncinatus seem to fail to appreciate is that the ACF Council can overide any ACF By-law by simply majority vote.

Garvinator
26-07-2004, 12:31 AM
What cinncinatus seem to fail to appreciate is that the ACF Council can overide any ACF By-law by simply majority vote.
yes i know, but i just want to see George starting to answer some of these questions instead of me. He is the main organiser, i am part of the organising team and chief contact for the open/minor.

AES
26-07-2004, 10:50 AM
Cincinnatus, you're prepared to dish out some currie, but are you prepared to take it?





Chess Victoria know a dead horse when they see it.

Should I laugh now or later?

-This comment is pretty naive coming from someone who is well versed in ACF bylaws.
-You are not in any position to be able to tell whether this will succeed or not.You don't know who is coming from overseas or interstate. You don't even know the finances of the event. Have you ever organised anything?
-You simply think that because CV doesn't support it, it can't succeed. That is pretty ignorant. :wall:
-Victorians will still enter even though CV doesn't support it.
-Don't put words in CV's mouth. They have never said it was a dead horse. There are other obvious reasons why they might oppose it. Like, the fact that they had a rival bid!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Cincinnatus, who are you? and what is your agenda? Your comments are frivilous otherwise.


GEORGE HOWARD isn't checking this BB much anymore (but i could be wrong). He thought there was too much rubbish on here and I tend to agree.

Garvinator
26-07-2004, 10:54 AM
Should I laugh now or later?
why not laugh now and later ;)

AES
26-07-2004, 11:07 AM
I don't see an Organising Committee. I see an oligarchy.
Who are the signatories of the recently set-up $20,000 account?

Here is another comment which has no evidence to support it. Come on cincinnatus, show me where it says we're an oligarchy?

Get your facts right. This thread is becoming a joke.

ps an independent audit is being done on this event alone, so i wouldn't bother trying to question George's motives. But that does bring to the fore, what are your motives/agenda?

cincinnatus
26-07-2004, 11:16 AM
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/archive/collective_nouns.html

"A collective noun is a noun that denotes a collection of persons or things regarded as a unit.

Usage Note: In American usage, a collective noun takes a singular verb when it refers to the collection considered as a whole, as in:

The family was united on this question. The enemy is suing for peace. It takes a plural verb when it refers to the members of the group considered as individuals, as in:

My family are always fighting among themselves.
The enemy were showing up in groups of three or four to turn in their weapons.
In British usage, however, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals:
The government have not announced a new policy.
The team are playing in the test matches next week.
A collective noun should not be treated as both singular and plural in the same construction; thus:

The family is determined to press its (not their) claim.
Among the common collective nouns are:

committee
clergy
company
enemy
group
family
flock
public
team"

AES
26-07-2004, 11:17 AM
ok you got me there. Now onto the real stuff.

arosar
26-07-2004, 11:24 AM
Cinn, mate...I'm so disappointed in you. You allow yourself to be distracted too easily...

Focus man, focus!

AR

skip to my lou
26-07-2004, 01:30 PM
GEORGE HOWARD isn't checking this BB much anymore (but i could be wrong). He thought there was too much rubbish on here and I tend to agree.

There is too much rubbish in this world too, is he going to stop breathing because of it?

cincinnatus
26-07-2004, 03:26 PM
From the minutes of the July Council meeting (post #13):


GH also stated that whilst he would be happy to indemnify the ACF from any financial losses, he also thought that it was appropriate in that case that if there was a profit made , there should be a 50/50 split of any profits between the ACF and the organiser.

The promise of indemnity is hollow, since the Constitution reads:

"11. Finance
...
p. An officer or member of the Federation shall not be taken, only because of being a member or officer, to be liable to contribute to the payment of any debts or other liabilities incurred by the Federation."

Perhaps the ACF should secure a bond.

Oepty
26-07-2004, 03:41 PM
cincinnatus why are you trying to stir up trouble. This last post of yours can be nothing but that. If George Howard incurrs a debt it is not simply because he was a member of the ACF, it is because he is the organiser of the Australian Open plus other events. This is not a part of the normal work a ACF President would undertake. There is also the case that any loss that the tournaments make is not one that has been made by the ACF but by the organising committee of the committee.
Scott

Garvinator
26-07-2004, 03:46 PM
From the minutes of the July Council meeting (post #13):



The promise of indemnity is hollow, since the Constitution reads:

"11. Finance
...
p. An officer or member of the Federation shall not be taken, only because of being a member or officer, to be liable to contribute to the payment of any debts or other liabilities incurred by the Federation."

Perhaps the ACF should secure a bond.
you obviously havent read the actual constitution very closely. The acf council can over ride any by laws at any acf council meeting.

arosar
26-07-2004, 03:57 PM
cincinnatus why are you trying to stir up trouble[?]

He clearly has an agenda. But it is entertaining to the rest of us.

"Cincinnatus" is an interesting handle. What is it? Or rather who was Cincinnatus? From about.com: "Cincinnatus was plowing his field, when he learned he had been appointed dictator. The Romans had appointed Cincinnatus dictator for six months so he could defend the Romans against the neighboring Aequi who had surrounded the Roman army and the consul Minucius in the Alban Hills." For more, http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_cincinnatus.htm

AR

cincinnatus
26-07-2004, 04:23 PM
Arosar,


Cinn, mate...I'm so disappointed in you. You allow yourself to be distracted too easily...

Focus man, focus!

It seems that the original post #278





Chess Victoria know a dead horse when they see it.

Should I laugh now or later?

-Firstly, get your sentence structure right. It should be Chess Victoria "knows". (don't you hate quoting bad grammar)
-This comment ...

was changed to





Chess Victoria know a dead horse when they see it.

Should I laugh now or later?

-This comment ...

within a few hours. My reply #281 was to the original post, but it seems that the moderator is more concerned about protecting some contributors from themselves than preserving the integrity of the thread.

cincinnatus
26-07-2004, 04:35 PM
ggrayggray,

In your #287


you obviously havent read the actual constitution very closely. The acf council can over ride any by laws at any acf council meeting.

My quote is from the Constitution, not the By-laws.

In any case:

"ACF Constitution
...
5. Council and Executive
...
c. The Council functions in the following three ways:
...
iii. as a management committee to manage the affairs of the Federation in accordance with its Constitution, By-Laws and resolutions."

So when were the resolutions passed that have over-turned the existing By-laws (and Constitution)?

arosar
26-07-2004, 04:37 PM
within a few hours. My reply #281 was to the original post, but it seems that the moderator is more concerned about protecting some contributors from themselves than preserving the integrity of the thread.

You scored a point against AES. So he deleted that part of his post. A moderator didn't do it. This is why you should quote!

Now, don't be distracted mate. Go back to the bit about how this is a questionable organisation, events, questionable finances...etc...etc.

AR

Garvinator
26-07-2004, 05:18 PM
ggrayggray,

In your #287



My quote is from the Constitution, not the By-laws.

In any case:

"ACF Constitution
...
5. Council and Executive
...
c. The Council functions in the following three ways:
...
iii. as a management committee to manage the affairs of the Federation in accordance with its Constitution, By-Laws and resolutions."

So when were the resolutions passed that have over-turned the existing By-laws (and Constitution)?


cinni, if you were fair dinkum in your questions and complaints, you would be taking them up with George Howard at georgeshoward@hotmail.com. Ask your questions there.

And while I am at it, i am not on the acf council and i was not at any of the acf council meetings. So i cannot answer what went on there.

Bill Gletsos
26-07-2004, 05:24 PM
My quote is from the Constitution, not the By-laws.

In any case:

"ACF Constitution
...
5. Council and Executive
...
c. The Council functions in the following three ways:
...
iii. as a management committee to manage the affairs of the Federation in accordance with its Constitution, By-Laws and resolutions."

So when were the resolutions passed that have over-turned the existing By-laws (and Constitution)?
The By-laws are passed by the ACF Council and can be changed, rescinded or set aside by simply majority vote of the ACF Council.

AES
26-07-2004, 06:47 PM
Cincinnatus,
I accepted my mistake. But are you too proud to accept yours?
Back up your statements, and tell us what your agenda is.
Johnny the blind dog can quote ACF by laws but few understand them.

Kevin Bonham
26-07-2004, 07:26 PM
Kevin Bonham misrepresents the case when he says:

since there is no provision for a private organiser to form one of the parties in this venture, especially as to the sharing of profits. What every state association truly knows (ask NSWCA re: Brian Jones) is that if the Association's bid makes a profit it is free to share its part of the profits (50%, after the ACF takes its cut) any way it chooses.

I have already been corrected on this here by Bill re Brian Jones' Open at Penrith. A State Association is free to allocate the 50% however it wishes, including allow the organiser to keep it all if it wishes. When I wrote that, I was under the impression that this was what occurred in the Penrith case. Bill since corrected this pointing out that the NSWCA split the 50% with Brian Jones.


So you can't have it both ways. Are the Mt. Buller events being organised by the ACF, in which case the ACF takes 100% of the profits, or are they being organised by the ACF in partnership with a non-affiliate (each to take 50%) in which case the ACF is in breach of its Constitution?

The ACF is formally the bidder but delegating the events to a formal non-affiliate. The ACF is agreeing that that non-affiliate (GH) gets to keep 50% of the profits if any. There are not expected to be any profits anyway. I would trust Denis Jessop's word on legal matters over that of some anonymous poster on the Bulletin Board anyday, and Denis was at the meeting and did not indicate any legal concerns about the arrangement.


From the minutes of the July Council meeting (post #13):

The promise of indemnity is hollow, since the Constitution reads:

"11. Finance
...
p. An officer or member of the Federation shall not be taken, only because of being a member or officer, to be liable to contribute to the payment of any debts or other liabilities incurred by the Federation."

Perhaps the ACF should secure a bond.

Rubbish, which part of "only because of being a member or officer" don't you understand? George is liable because he agreed to be liable, not because of "only because of being a member or officer". :hand:


My reply #281 was to the original post, but it seems that the moderator is more concerned about protecting some contributors from themselves than preserving the integrity of the thread.

There was no moderation - you really think we have either the time or the inclination to save posters from themselves?


Furthermore, with GH as both the ACF's representative and the individual standing to substantially benefit from any profits earned, you have an indisputable case of conflict of interest.

That is incorrect because George has absteined from all deliberations regarding Mt B and always will and we are no more in breach of:


2. Statement of Purpose
...
b. The Federation shall not be carried on for the purpose of trading or securing pecuniary profit to its members.

than we are in a wide range of other allocations.


CV could not have wanted these events too badly, or it would have invoked, Clause 18 of the By-laws for ACF Tournaments:

"18. Where the Council has determined the state where a tournament will be held, the Council shall not withdraw the tournament from that state unless:

a. the State Association consents thereto; or

b. the State Association has seriously neglected its duties in relation thereto or does not comply with these by-laws."

Chess Victoria know a dead horse when they see it.

This has previously been done to death - numerous avenues around this issue were found. The bold above will assist you in noticing the most obvious. "State" does not mean "state association" in the above.

Anyway, the Chess Victoria delegate present at the meeting, in response to a question from me, stated that in his view the CV Mt Buller bid was financially viable but CV thought the event would be better held elsewhere. :hand:

Stop wasting our time with this beat-up, or at least run it past someone who understands the Constitution and related legal issues first.

peanbrain
26-07-2004, 07:49 PM
Chess Victoria know a dead horse when they see it.

I was against mt buller and I still am. But your reference above has to be a joke.
Get this - Chess Victoria IS the dead horse. It is this dead horse that started all the mt bullcrap. :evil:

peanbrain
26-07-2004, 07:51 PM
He clearly has an agenda.

This guy sounded like a sour grape from chess victoria. :hmm:

peanbrain
26-07-2004, 07:54 PM
There is too much rubbish in this world too, is he going to stop breathing because of it?

No but "head in the sand" is always a good option if you are president of something and you don't really have anything useful to say. ;)

peanbrain
26-07-2004, 10:28 PM
Hi ALL,

If you are thinking of staying at the Chalet and want a room with a kitchen BOOK NOW - a few have already been booked for the entire Open and Juniors.

First in best dressed - you have been warned.

The rooms at the Chalet really are incredible value but its up to you!!

Regards
George Howard

How the hell do we know it is "incredible value" if george or his mouthpiece ggray can't even tell us what the package is? :doh:

And incredible value for what? - get stuck in the middle of nowhere for two weeks and the only top player they can muster from Australia is an IM? Gee, I can play IMs at my local weekend tournaments without paying $30 for bed and breakfast for two weeks thanks. :hand:

Garvinator
26-07-2004, 10:44 PM
How the hell do we know it is "incredible value" if george or his mouthpiece ggray can't even tell us what the package is? :doh:
i am nobodies mouthpiece thank you very much :evil: and by the way, some details have been mentioned on here previously about what mercure offers and what the basic packages are. Remember peanbrain, you are not forced to stay at mercure.

I have had a gutful of repeating myself regarding the negative comments.

So i will say this clearly and will not be repeating it.

You are not forced to stay at mercure. if you think it is the best option, then of course it will help the tournament and sponsors to stay there. If you find something better elsewhere, stay there and be happy with your so called bargain.

As i said you can stay elsewhere, but we as organisers are not going to baby you to find a competitors price and deals.

cincinnatus
26-07-2004, 10:44 PM
Last edited by AES : 26-07-2004 at 10:47 AM


You scored a point against AES. So he deleted that part of his post. A moderator didn't do it. This is why you should quote!


There was no moderation - you really think we have either the time or the inclination to save posters from themselves?

Thanks for alerting me. AES has "rectified" his post. How convenient; our own Ministry of Truth.

Garvinator
26-07-2004, 10:46 PM
what is your agenda cincinnatus, where are you from? plz pm or i will no longer be answering your queries as you clearly cannot read what the acf council members are telling you regarding constitutional matters.

AES
26-07-2004, 11:57 PM
Get back onto chess, cincinnatus.

i find many of your statements troubling and unfounded. We all know you can quote other people and laws, but how about looking back at some of your own quotes.

-What makes this event a dead horse? How is this an oligarchy?

The higher the monkey climbs, the more he shows his tail!

Kevin Bonham
27-07-2004, 12:59 AM
Thanks for alerting me. AES has "rectified" his post. How convenient; our own Ministry of Truth.

Just what we want, a troll who quotes Orwell but doesn't understand it.

The only one attempting to use propaganda to manipulate public opinion on this matter is you. :hand:

doc
27-07-2004, 12:25 PM
Conspiracy theory: cincinnatus = arosar

Any other possibilities?

arosar
27-07-2004, 12:41 PM
Nope . . . not me.

I have a theory though. Note the posting style, the subject (ie. by-laws), and the labouring on meaning.

AR

Brian_Jones
27-07-2004, 01:16 PM
I agree with you amiel - it just has to be....................a certain mexican!

Oepty
27-07-2004, 01:22 PM
Brian. Are you talking about our medals man?
Scott

Brian_Jones
27-07-2004, 01:48 PM
Not necessarily!

Garvinator
27-07-2004, 01:52 PM
i have created a thread on who is cincinnatus in the non chess section, please post there to speculate :lol:

arosar
28-07-2004, 02:49 PM
Question: are GMs still coming? Who?

AR

arosar
28-07-2004, 05:47 PM
Another question: what is the long-term benefit to Australian chess with this insistence on the Mt Buller deal?

gray - you're usually reliable . . . c'mon then!

AR

Garvinator
28-07-2004, 06:03 PM
just so i dont get accused of jacking up my post count ill answer both your questions in the same post :owned:

We are currently negotiating with some gms and ims but due to confidential emails regarding this matter i cant say much more, except that we are negotiating with a few overseas players.

the long term vision is that their will be greater sponsorship dollars available for running the tournaments at a first class venue and hotels in sometimes different major cities.

Oepty
28-07-2004, 06:07 PM
Have there been any severely negative responses to the change in circumstances with the Australian Open from overseas GMs?
Scott

Garvinator
28-07-2004, 06:11 PM
Have there been any severely negative responses to the change in circumstances with the Australian Open from overseas GMs?
Scott
not as far as i know. we have delegated the work load a bit for each person and Alex and Andrew are doing more of the gm/im stuff than i am.

arosar
28-07-2004, 06:22 PM
We are currently negotiating with some gms and ims but due to confidential emails regarding this matter i cant say much more, except that we are negotiating with a few overseas players.

I see . . . do you have any idea of exactly how many GMs/IMs you're hoping to attract?


the long term vision is that their will be greater sponsorship dollars available for running the tournaments at a first class venue and hotels in sometimes different major cities.

Interesting. So this agreement with Mt Buller is, shall we say, a test-drive (if you like) between the ACF and the wider Accor world? I am curious: exactly how far up the Accor hierarchy is this Roman fella that you've been dealing with? And is he the only one within Accor that you have dealt with?

AR

Garvinator
28-07-2004, 06:26 PM
I see . . . do you have any idea of exactly how many GMs/IMs you're hoping to attract? i do have some idea ;)


Interesting. So this agreement with Mt Buller is, shall we say, a test-drive (if you like) between the ACF and the wider Accor world? I am curious: exactly how far up the Accor hierarchy is this Roman fella that you've been dealing with? And is he the only one within Accor that you have dealt with? i havent spoken with anyone from accor myself, i think libby or jenni have spoken to them more than i have(which wouldnt be hard :P )

I will know more as i have said before on the day of August 4.

arosar
28-07-2004, 06:33 PM
i do have some idea ;)

Surely a teaser number is permissible...no? I'm sure we will not take it as definitive.


i havent spoken with anyone from accor myself, i think libby or jenni have spoken to them more than i have(which wouldnt be hard)

So Libby is on the organising committe too? Must have missed that one!

What I am trying to tease out of you gray is the longer-term strategic aim of this partnership. More specifically, I am interested in the characters who agreed upon that partnership.


I will know more as i have said before on the day of August 4.

Very well gray. Such complex negotiations cannot be rushed. We will wait til then.

Thank you for your answers so far.

AR

Garvinator
28-07-2004, 06:43 PM
Surely a teaser number is permissible...no? I'm sure we will not take it as definitive. i was just being deliberately difficult:D i think about 5 to 6 gms is a fair number, but there are many negotiations going on and as i said im only getting small updates on that stuff.



So Libby is on the organising committe too? Must have missed that one! Yes you did miss that one cause Libby is not on the organising committee. Libby would have spoken to Roman and Natasha(Romans wife) regarding accommodation matters for act. Jenni is on the organising committee regarding the ascc and juniors.


What I am trying to tease out of you gray is the longer-term strategic aim of this partnership. More specifically, I am interested in the characters who agreed upon that partnership.
I knew what you were after and i cannot comment on that one (no stalling or anything being tried here) this matter is between George, accor and the acf council.

arosar
28-07-2004, 06:52 PM
i think about 5 to 6 gms is a fair number, but there are many negotiations going on and as i said im only getting small updates on that stuff.

Would you care for a Filipino GM or strong young IM?


Yes you did miss that one cause Libby is not on the organising committee. Libby would have spoken to Roman and Natasha(Romans wife) regarding accommodation matters for act. Jenni is on the organising committee regarding the ascc and juniors.

I see . . . so this husband and wife team have the power and authority to speak on behalf of the wider Accor world?


I knew what you were after and i cannot comment on that one (no stalling or anything being tried here) this matter is between George, accor and the acf council.

Good answer gray. Now, does the name Travers ring a bell?

AR

Bill Gletsos
28-07-2004, 06:56 PM
Good answer gray. Now, does the name Travers ring a bell?
Yes.
I used to go to High School with Roy and went to Uni with his ex-wife.

Garvinator
28-07-2004, 06:57 PM
Would you care for a Filipino GM or strong young IM?
contact George at georgeshoward@hotmail.com but you can give a name if you wish and arianne doesnt count:whistle:



I see . . . so this husband and wife team have the power and authority to speak on behalf of the wider Accor world?didnt say that. i keep passing the buck for you to speak to George cause he has been the one saving the deal with accor.


Good answer gray. Now, does the name Travers ring a bell nope

jenni
28-07-2004, 06:59 PM
Jenni is on the organising committee regarding the ascc and juniors.


.

Nope just the ASC (to use Richard's preferred description). I've just been sticking my nose in, when I see things like the time controls for the juniors, that I think need more consultation. :)

arosar
28-07-2004, 07:01 PM
Thank you gray....you don't know it, but this little exchange has been very informative. 'Til tomorrow then.

AR

arosar
28-07-2004, 07:02 PM
Yes.
I used to go to High School with Roy and went to Uni with his ex-wife.

Bill, might I ask you to stay out of this one? You will affect momentum.

AR

cincinnatus
28-07-2004, 09:01 PM
Sorry to break the momentum ...

#295

The ACF is formally the bidder but delegating the events to a formal non-affiliate. The ACF is agreeing that that non-affiliate (GH) gets to keep 50% of the profits if any. There are not expected to be any profits anyway.

We have a new entity in Australian chess: "a formal non-affiliate".

Bill Gletsos (#276, #293) insists "that the ACF Council can overide any ACF By-law by simply majority vote", an opinion which ggrayggray (#277) is quick to follow. Does Kevin Bonham agree? Or, would Kevin be inclined to support my understanding: that changes to By-laws usually follow a long debate and exchange of draft documents. Does anyone think that the Council addressed each of the many By-laws which Mt. Buller II breaks? The chosen path, which Bill tries to justify, was actually brought on by expediency, not a considered analysis of the By-laws.

OK, allowing that the By-laws are malleable, desperate times (the collapse of Mt. Buller I) call for desperate measures (a solution outside of the By-laws).

But the flexibility of the Constitution is a different matter.

Don't national Associations incorporate under ACT legislation?

The Associations Incorporation Act 1991
http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/a/1991-46/current/pdf/1991-46.pdf

Officers and members of an incorporated Association are obliged to follow the rules of the Association (Section 48). There are penalties for Officers and members who don't (Part 9).

Now what could be clearer than:

"ACF Constitution
...
11. Finance

a. All moneys received by the Federation must be paid into an account in the name of the Federation at a bank and branch approved by the Council.

b.All cheques, drafts, bills of exchange, promissory notes and other negotiable instruments must be signed by two persons approved by the Council, one of whom must be the President, Deputy President, Secretary or Treasurer."

In the haste to set up this account, I suspect that this was not complied with, but stand to be corrected. I've obviously been giving some of you too much to think about because you've tackled everything but my initial question of five days ago:

************************************************** ***
*
* Who are the signatories of the recently set-up $20,000 account? *
*
************************************************** ***

A member of the ACF Council (Kevin Bonham) cannot (or will not) answer. Two members of the Organising Committee (AES, ggrayggray) cannot (or will not) answer.

And please, Kevin, don't quote any special provisions for formal non-affiliates.

Garvinator
28-07-2004, 09:26 PM
I will not be answering any of your questions or statements until you declare who you are. You are not just idly speculating, but are making serious claims. You know my role in mt buller 2, but i dont know what your agenda is or your history in australian chess.

So either tell me at least in pm who you are or you will not have your questions answered.

if you are serious about your questions and answers, then either email George Howard at georgeshoward@hotmail.com or Gary Wastell gwastell@nestscape.net.au.

Libby
28-07-2004, 09:27 PM
So Libby is on the organising committe too? Must have missed that one!

AR

Nope - I'm far too troublesome! (And too busy!) I have 3 kids (14, 10 & 6) and only one chess player (who missed 3 rounds at the ANU when hit by an uncontrollable urge to throw-up - parenting is so glamourous!) ;)

I was just trying to chase the Chalet for some more specific info about rooms & prices that didn't involve ALL adult or ALL child occupancies. Strangely enough, some parents want to sleep in rooms with their children at these events. Not always when throwing-up is involved I have to say ... :rolleyes:

Not quite sure why the hotel would want children in a room without an adult anyway. I wouldn't like to be paying the bill for the mini-bar! :D

AES
28-07-2004, 10:13 PM
cincinnatus/Einstein,

Give us a break mate. We are organisers who have the interests of Australian chess at heart and are doing everything possible to make this a successful event. We are also closely following ACF guidelines under the direction of ACF president George Howard. Your arguments are trivial and have not been brought up by any ACF council members.

I can't disclose who are the signatories for this account as i have been told in emails by George and others. We are following the ACF guidlines. Further, let's make this very clear that these details have been disclosed to those who should know
-other organisers
-ACF Council

None of them have a problem, i believe.

Further, an independent audit is being done on this event alone to ensure everything is in order. So that kind of stuffs up your argument. How does it help your cause to know who the signatories of the account are?

Btw, you can't cut the cake and eat it too. Why aren't you telling us anything about yourself? Why aren't you justifying your comments? eg:

******************************************
*
* What makes this event a dead horse? *
* How is this an oligarchy?
*
******************************************

Bill Gletsos
28-07-2004, 10:32 PM
Bill, might I ask you to stay out of this one? You will affect momentum.
No problem just thought I would pass on some trivia. ;)

Garvinator
28-07-2004, 10:35 PM
No problem just thought I would pass on some trivia. ;)
dont worry about affecting momentum, i think aes and i have both taken the policy that we wont be answering cinny's questions/remarks until he declares who he/she is and proves that claimed identity :owned:

jeffrei
28-07-2004, 11:51 PM
I was just trying to chase the Chalet for some more specific info about rooms & prices that didn't involve ALL adult or ALL child occupancies. Strangely enough, some parents want to sleep in rooms with their children at these events.

I rang to enquire about booking and I was told that if you've got one adult in a room with children then the prices switch over to adult rates (in other words, mixing adults and children costs a lot extra and should be avoided...to the extent that this is practical). I wasn't 100% sure about some details so I sent off an email to get clarification...I'll post again when I get a reply.

I'm sure one of the committee members will be able to answer your question in more detail...most likely it doesn't affect me as I'll be sharing with 2 other adults, but I'm wondering about what the pricing would be for various kinds of parent/child mixes (e.g. two parents one child, one parent two children, etc).

Kevin Bonham
29-07-2004, 12:02 AM
We have a new entity in Australian chess: "a formal non-affiliate".

A formal non-affiliate is an entity that is formally not affiliated. What could be simpler? :wall: :wall: :wall:


Bill Gletsos (#276, #293) insists "that the ACF Council can overide any ACF By-law by simply majority vote", an opinion which ggrayggray (#277) is quick to follow. Does Kevin Bonham agree?

Yes, he most certainly does.


Or, would Kevin be inclined to support my understanding: that changes to By-laws usually follow a long debate and exchange of draft documents.

Your understanding is, as usual, deficient. Firstly a change to a By-Law and an overriding of a by-law are totally different things. In the latter case, the by-law still exists in its original form, but was suspended in this instance. Changes to by-laws are a completely different matter. Some by-law changes happen after very lengthy debate; in other cases the debate involved is trivial.


Does anyone think that the Council addressed each of the many By-laws which Mt. Buller II breaks?

You have not given any evidence of a by-law breach that has stood up, and your understanding of the by-laws has already been proven deficient several times, so all unsupported claims of by-law breaches from you are worthless.


"ACF Constitution
...
11. Finance

a. All moneys received by the Federation must be paid into an account in the name of the Federation at a bank and branch approved by the Council.

b.All cheques, drafts, bills of exchange, promissory notes and other negotiable instruments must be signed by two persons approved by the Council, one of whom must be the President, Deputy President, Secretary or Treasurer."

No monies have been received by the Federation because the group running the bid on behalf of the ACF is not the Federation, so this is all irrelevant.


A member of the ACF Council (Kevin Bonham) cannot (or will not) answer.

Hmmm, that could be because I missed the part of your message where you offered me financial inducement and a public admission that you are a remarkably sloppy troll in exchange for me doing your donkey work for you. :hand:

Or it could be because some details which all Councillors are privy to are commercial-in-confidence.

Or it could be because I am waiting for you to notice that who the signatories are is irrelevant to your by-law beatup because no matter who they are there is no breach of the by-laws.

Choose any of the above.

And do keep going. I want more hints about who you are. :lol:

arosar
29-07-2004, 07:55 AM
This by-law crap is the friggin' deadhorse. It ain't gettin' up lemme tell youse. I heard some funny stories about this Muller schit but the funniest one was that GH was gonna take all the money and run away to Mexico! And I mean the REAL Mexico! That had me in stitches that one.

AR

arosar
29-07-2004, 01:18 PM
Now gray, shall we reconvene?

This time, I don't want any deflection to the boss. He must answer publicly. After all, he wants to drag us all into Buller - supposedlly for our benefit. Ready?

AR

doc
29-07-2004, 01:18 PM
Btw, you can't cut the cake and eat it too. Why aren't you telling us anything about yourself? Why aren't you justifying your comments? eg:

******************************************
*
* What makes this event a dead horse? *
* How is this an oligarchy?
*
******************************************


is that fair to be asking those sort of questions of cinncinnatus?
he represents the public, he can ask away.

Rincewind
29-07-2004, 01:31 PM
is that fair to be asking those sort of questions of cinncinnatus?
he represents the public, he can ask away.

The public don't have an interest in those questions. Members of state organisations do, but Cincinnatus has not identified himself as such.

Garvinator
29-07-2004, 01:32 PM
is that fair to be asking those sort of questions of cinncinnatus?
he represents the public, he can ask away.
how do you know he represents the public and not just some ppl with vested interests? Tell us who he is and prove that he represents the public. As i have just said PROVE YOUR CLAIMS

Garvinator
29-07-2004, 01:34 PM
Now gray, shall we reconvene?

This time, I don't want any deflection to the boss. He must answer publicly. After all, he wants to drag us all into Buller - supposedlly for our benefit. Ready?

AR
amiel, i cant answer questions where the answers i have are completely confidential or are only for the organisers and acf council. that is why i have to say to contact George as he might be able to answer. But quite a few emails have been marked as confidential by all of us, so no one can reveal them to anyone else part from the organisers.

but i dont mind answering reasonable questions that i can answer.

arosar
29-07-2004, 01:54 PM
The public don't have an interest in those questions.

That's a bold statement? How do you know that?

(Now should that be "the public don't" or "the public doesn't"?


Members of state organisations do

. . . who are themselves elected by the 'chess' public.

AR

PHAT
29-07-2004, 03:20 PM
The Mt Buller Minor Tournament

Dates: Sunday 2nd January- Wednesday 5th January 2005

Details: 8 round Swiss draw, 2 round per day, 60 minutes + 30 seconds

Prizes: 1st-3rd place + rating prizes. Top prize is $500!

Prices: $60 adult (early bird fees)

Contact: Garvin Gray, ph 0422993062 --email down temp--

60m + 30s is very very disappointing. Please reconcider this, as it should be 90m + 30s.

Mt. Buller is a long way to go for just 16 hours of chess.

Garvinator
29-07-2004, 03:28 PM
That's a bold statement? How do you know that?

(Now should that be "the public don't" or "the public doesn't"?



. . . who are themselves elected by the 'chess' public.

AR
not in cv there not. remember they have a club delegate structure.

Garvinator
29-07-2004, 03:29 PM
60m + 30s is very very disappointing. Please reconcider this, as it should be 90m + 30s.

Mt. Buller is a long way to go for just 16 hours of chess.
this is a fair enough concern and has been passed on to the rest of the organisers.

arosar
29-07-2004, 03:34 PM
not in cv there not. remember they have a club delegate structure.

And what of those outside of Mexico gray? Are they not entitled to their uncertaintities?

AR

Garvinator
29-07-2004, 04:10 PM
60m + 30s is very very disappointing. Please reconcider this, as it should be 90m + 30s.

Mt. Buller is a long way to go for just 16 hours of chess.
matt, following emails between George and I, the minor time control is now 90 + 30.

arosar
29-07-2004, 04:17 PM
Could you amend the announcements then gray?

EDIT: Oh I see that you have. Now is that 90 mins plus 30 secs per move from move 1?

AR

Garvinator
29-07-2004, 04:20 PM
Could you amend the announcements then gray?

EDIT: Oh I see that you have. Now is that 90 mins plus 30 secs per move from move 1?

AR
yes arosar. 90 minutes per side plus 30 seconds per move from move one.

PHAT
29-07-2004, 07:24 PM
matt, following emails between George and I, the minor time control is now 90 + 30.

WOW!! That is what I call outstanding management. A request for something reasonable, and BAMMM, it is done. Leaves the NSWCA "method" for dead.

Libby
29-07-2004, 08:07 PM
I rang to enquire about booking and I was told that if you've got one adult in a room with children then the prices switch over to adult rates (in other words, mixing adults and children costs a lot extra and should be avoided...to the extent that this is practical). I wasn't 100% sure about some details so I sent off an email to get clarification...I'll post again when I get a reply.

I'm sure one of the committee members will be able to answer your question in more detail...most likely it doesn't affect me as I'll be sharing with 2 other adults, but I'm wondering about what the pricing would be for various kinds of parent/child mixes (e.g. two parents one child, one parent two children, etc).

Yes, I also got the response that any adult puts you on the adult price for the room so (effectively) other than groups of teenagers or groups of loosely supervised children, the average parent and child travelling to Mt Buller is paying $120/night for a minimum (being practical) of 14 nights - a mere $1680. :owned: Extra good value for those in the U12 who are only playing 9 of the 13 days.

And no, it won't affect you too much - or most adults in the Aus Open - just those who are going to the Juniors on a budget. I know the organisers want us to stay at the Mercure for the benefit of the tournament but my alternative is costing a bit over $600 for the same period so I've had to weigh up my options (and $1000) and decide I'll have to forgo the sauna and ski hire this time. :lol:

Libby
29-07-2004, 08:09 PM
Mt. Buller is a long way to go for just 16 hours of chess.

Just ask the kids (and parents) heading there in December for the Schools comp ... :hmm:

Kevin Bonham
29-07-2004, 08:32 PM
G60/+30 isn't that bad. A long one can go for three and a half hours, but maybe Matthew doesn't get that many 80+ move games given his style. But hey, when you've got the time, why not use it? Good decision.

Posts devoted purely to speculating about cincinnatus' identity are now banned from this thread and will be deleted (not moved). There is a "who is cincinnatus" thread in the non-chess section. (It's still fine to complain about cincinnatus' anonymity, suggest c. has a vested interest etc in responding to c.'s "points")

Alan Shore
29-07-2004, 08:47 PM
G60/+30 isn't that bad. A long one can go for three and a half hours, but maybe Matthew doesn't get that many 80+ move games given his style. But hey, when you've got the time, why not use it? Good decision.

In a tournament such as this the 30s inc isn't a bad idea. However I hope to never see it return to weekenders...

peanbrain
29-07-2004, 11:24 PM
Yes, I also got the response that any adult puts you on the adult price for the room so (effectively) other than groups of teenagers or groups of loosely supervised children, the average parent and child travelling to Mt Buller is paying $120/night for a minimum (being practical) of 14 nights - a mere $1680. :owned: Extra good value for those in the U12 who are only playing 9 of the 13 days.

And no, it won't affect you too much - or most adults in the Aus Open - just those who are going to the Juniors on a budget. I know the organisers want us to stay at the Mercure for the benefit of the tournament but my alternative is costing a bit over $600 for the same period so I've had to weigh up my options (and $1000) and decide I'll have to forgo the sauna and ski hire this time. :lol:

Not much better for adults at Aus Open. No change from $1000 for entry fee, bed, and breakfast. Unless you plan to hitch a free ride you looking another $500 to get yourself up the damn rock and down again. Did I mention luch and dinner yet?!

Wow, over $1500 for two weeks of chess, that's great value!! How lucky are we to have a sponsor!! ;)

Garvinator
30-07-2004, 12:00 AM
Wow, over $1500 for two weeks of chess, that's great value!! How lucky are we to have a sponsor!! ;)
we could always use the gurus prices ;)

Garvinator
30-07-2004, 12:05 AM
Look who is the suckhole here?? :whistle:
i had just taken it as another back handed slap at nswca council :whistle:

Bill Gletsos
30-07-2004, 01:06 AM
WOW!! That is what I call outstanding management. A request for something reasonable, and BAMMM, it is done. Leaves the NSWCA "method" for dead.
How would you know.
You have never made any reasonable requests.
On top of that George is the main organiser so he can make an immediate decision.
With the NSWCA its a democracy and every council member has an equal vote.

Garvinator
30-07-2004, 01:38 AM
On top of that George is the main organiser so he can make an immediate decision. and perhaps each organiser has been given the responsibility of running different areas with George's permission having to be gained before any changes are made.

Libby
30-07-2004, 10:47 AM
we could always use the gurus prices ;)

We never had too much detail on those but his flyer (distributed at Doeberl) had "packages (including breakfast and entry); 13 nights from $595. 5 nights from $299"

Look - I'm not interested in stirring too much further on this. The fact is, there are cheaper places to stay in Mt Buller so look them up www.mtbuller.com.au or you'll get lumped with what's left!

I think the prices are very reasonable at the Chalet for a 4.5 star hotel. The problem arises when you ask how many of us are normally looking for 4.5 star accommodation for this sort of event - that's what makes it expensive :wall:

arosar
30-07-2004, 11:20 AM
. . . a mere $1680.

These kinds of chacracterisations that the deal is cheap is simply false. This will, in fact, be one of the most expensive Aus Open trips ever for the average Joe player. The costs mentioned so far do not include incidentals and other unknown unknowns. And we cannot know these unknowns unless we actually get the trip in the first place suffice to know that such unknowns costs are likely to be very high.

There is a great deal of fear and uncertainty in the community and this is really not helped by the iron wall surrounding the organisers. I've played in a coupla Opens now and this one in Buller has been the most difficult, secretive, conspiratorial and unhelpful. It totally lacks professionalism and I am unhappy about it as are many in the public. The info is coming in drips for cryin' out loud.

AR

Libby
30-07-2004, 11:28 AM
These kinds of chacracterisations that the deal is cheap is simply false. AR

errr ... did you take me seriously? Remember, I'm staying there (plus 1 child) for a smidge over $600 for the whole tournament not the "mere $1680."

Have a look at the other places to stay. A lot of the other lodges are open in Summer. Yes - I've been very irritable about this whole thing as well and I don't think anybody thinks I would rather go to Mt Buller than suburban Melbourne for example. But you're either going or you're not. At least if you give it a go this time you can move on to informed sledging after the event or even become a convert :cool: At least the adults will vote AFTER they have been at Mt Buller (for a while anyway) on whether or not they want this ongoing deal. The juniors don't really get a vote and decisions are likely to be made BEFORE their event is held and it's success (or otherwise) judged. :hmm:

Garvinator
30-07-2004, 11:32 AM
At least the adults will vote AFTER they have been at Mt Buller (for a while anyway) on whether or not they want this ongoing deal. The juniors don't really get a vote and decisions are likely to be made BEFORE their event is held and it's success (or otherwise) judged. :hmm:
i agree with you that the vote should be held after the whole mt buller event is over, but when would the national conference and acf council meeting be held in person then?

Doeberl is too long after.

Lucena
30-07-2004, 11:59 AM
is that fair to be asking those sort of questions of cinncinnatus?
he represents the public, he can ask away.

well he sure doesn't represent me. He's a twit and arguably a worse one than CL.

Libby
30-07-2004, 04:52 PM
i agree with you that the vote should be held after the whole mt buller event is over, but when would the national conference and acf council meeting be held in person then?

Doeberl is too long after.

I can't really help on that :doh: My concern (from a junior perspective) is we have no vote. What's more, we have no opportunity to assess the success of the Mt Buller venue, feedback from parents, players etc from which to draw conclusions and make recommendations to those who do vote.

A decision is likely to be made - before the Juniors even play in Mt Buller - which will affect those players and their event, for several years (potentially). Once a vote is taken, strictly in the interests of the future of Australian chess of course, the Juniors are tied to the deal even if (worst case scenario) they don't support the deal at all and Mt Buller is a complete flop. :eek:

This isn't an attempt to scuttle hard work with more carping, negative crap. Only to ask that the ACF not charge into a fabulous deal for their adults, piggy backed on the junior events to make it viable, without asking juniors what they think. :)

arosar
30-07-2004, 04:55 PM
Of course you have a say. You just boycott the whole thing. That's the problem with youse lot. You've lived your lives so merrily you forget your powers of protest.

AR

Rincewind
30-07-2004, 05:02 PM
Of course you have a say. You just boycott the whole thing. That's the problem with youse lot. You've lived your lives so merrily you forget your powers of protest.

Not to mention cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Actually, after a closer look at your avatar, never mind. ;)

Libby
30-07-2004, 06:19 PM
Of course you have a say. You just boycott the whole thing. That's the problem with youse lot. You've lived your lives so merrily you forget your powers of protest.

AR

Yep - I stand on my high horse and boycott the whole thing. That works for me. Unfortunately that just means one less non-playing parent doesn't turn up at Mt Buller and who cares?

Oh, that's right. One small child whose age group changes from year to year also doesn't get to go and compete. One Australian Junior is not necessarily the same as the next Australian Junior from a junior playing perspective (different for the old fogeys). :hmm: This is where the organisers have the suckers (oops - parents) by the proverbial (will not post the phrase lest I tarnish my reputation as a sheila) :D

And the schools event has to be qualified for from year to year. The venue might look better next time but your team may not have the option to play. What's the point in that. :rolleyes:

Also, as someone who volunteers and suffers the niggles and knocking that comes with that role, I'd rather turn up and find there is legitimacy for my complaints than sit home alone with all my friends ;) and risk that the whole thing might actually go well without me.

Bill Gletsos
30-07-2004, 06:45 PM
At least the adults will vote AFTER they have been at Mt Buller (for a while anyway) on whether or not they want this ongoing deal. The juniors don't really get a vote and decisions are likely to be made BEFORE their event is held and it's success (or otherwise) judged. :hmm:
As a member of the ACF Council I certainly would not be voting in favour of having any vote regarding an ongoing deal until AFTER the junior event has completed.

Perhaps unlike last year the other ACF Council members will this time support a NSW motion to delay any quick decision until it can be thoroughly evaluated and debated irrespective of any supposed deadlines. If the deal really is so good from the sponsors viewpoint then they can wait. After all I doubt they have people jumping at the bit for that time of year.

I would think an email vote around mid to late february would be the most desireable.

Libby
30-07-2004, 07:15 PM
As a member of the ACF Council I certainly would not be voting in favour of having any vote regarding an ongoing deal until AFTER the junior event has completed.

Thanks Bill. I've been a little concerned at the prospect of another "yes, with reservations" vote where the deal is so good and so unmissable that the prospect of problems (still to be assessed) for juniors will have to be steamrolled in the interests of Australian Chess.

Not that acting in the best interest of Australian Chess is a bad thing but juniors have a pretty big stake in the future of Australian chess themselves. I'd like the (prospective) junior sub-committee to have a voice in the process. And it would be better that it was an informed voice, assessing the events after they have been conducted, rather than a voice speaking from personal prejudice, supposition or spin. :cool:

peanbrain
30-07-2004, 08:00 PM
we could always use the gurus prices ;)

Yes let's look at guru's prices:



Chesslover – indicative costs. I will be putting together a variety of packages something along these lines:
Basic package - $660 includes 13 nights accommodation, full buffet breakfasts, use of all hotel facilities and entry to Australian Open and all subsidiary events/activities. This figure is be based on 3 players sharing a room, you can be in a room with players of your choice or enter and I’ll allocate you to a room.
Gold Entry package - $1790 Includes all above, but with just one player in a room so you can bring up to 3 others at no extra charge (family, friends etc) but with only 1 entry to the Events.

So how's that compare with your $1500++ for shared room grayray?? :hand:

Libby
30-07-2004, 08:12 PM
Yes let's look at guru's prices:



So how's that compare with your $1500++ for shared room grayray?? :hand:

Umm - in my understanding, your room costs $120/night if it has adults in it. That comes to $1560 for 13 nights (direct comparison). And that includes full breakfast. The room sleeps two plus a third on the sofa bed or roll-away. That is $520 each for 13 nights and I think that's cheaper.

Entry fee $130 (now) and the two deals just about break even with each other.

I guess the query with that is that David was supposed to be making money on the rooms?

The further consideration is that David never confirmed (to my understanding) final prices etc so his "deal" wasn't quite inked so we can't be sure what we would have actually ended up paying.

peanbrain
30-07-2004, 09:10 PM
Umm - in my understanding, your room costs $120/night if it has adults in it. That comes to $1560 for 13 nights (direct comparison). And that includes full breakfast. The room sleeps two plus a third on the sofa bed or roll-away. That is $520 each for 13 nights and I think that's cheaper.

Entry fee $130 (now) and the two deals just about break even with each other.

The room rate quoted by mt bullcrap II organisers is $120 for twin share and additional person another $50. That means three in a room cost $740 each for 14 nights (you have to arrive aday earlier to climb te damn rock)!! Then add another $130 for entry fee, this rate is already higher than what the greedy guru was quoting.

The difference gets even bigger if you compare this to guru's "gold package" for 4 people staying in a room for $1600+.

So what if the place is 4.5 stars during the middle of summer?!

peanbrain
30-07-2004, 09:22 PM
Oh, that's right. One small child whose age group changes from year to year also doesn't get to go and compete. One Australian Junior is not necessarily the same as the next Australian Junior from a junior playing perspective (different for the old fogeys). :hmm: This is where the organisers have the suckers (oops - parents) by the proverbial (will not post the phrase lest I tarnish my reputation as a sheila)

Easy, just organise your own event at the same time as mt bullcrap II in Canberra and I bet you get more players! :cool:

Garvinator
30-07-2004, 09:32 PM
From now on I will not be answering any questions relating to accommodation at mt buller. Enough url's have been given to find your own accommodation. If you dont like mercure options, find your own or wait until August 4.

if you have a complaint about my posts, send them to georgeshoward@hotmail.com.

Instead of getting more information, you are now getting less. well done i hope you guys are proud of yourself. Feel free to keep bitching with no involvement from the organisers. :evil:

Kevin Bonham
30-07-2004, 10:17 PM
I would think an email vote around mid to late february would be the most desireable.

I agree there should be caution and I am really sorry I was not at the January meetings to push that case in the first place.

Still, hopefully a case of all's well that ends well ...

DoroPhil
30-07-2004, 10:21 PM
From now on I will not be answering any questions relating to accommodation at mt buller. Enough url's have been given to find your own accommodation. If you dont like mercure options, find your own or wait until August 4.

if you have a complaint about my posts, send them to georgeshoward@hotmail.com.

Instead of getting more information, you are now getting less. well done i hope you guys are proud of yourself. Feel free to keep bitching with no involvement from the organisers. :evil:

Customer relationship management at its best! This last post by the Bill-jr is so childish and unprofessional. This is so bloody amateurish its not even funny anymore. Well, maybe stiil a little bit funny...

Anyway, ACF should look for something other than the DESIRE to do things in their volunteers. They should look for ABILITY to actually get the job done PROFESSIONALLY.

AES
30-07-2004, 10:30 PM
In Garvin's defence, he has had to answer a variety of questions from many different individuals. Many of these people have no intention on coming to the event but rather are intent or generating negative publicity. I think Garvin has handled himself well during the airraids. Having said this, there are many people who do have genuine concerns and we must ensure that their questions are answered.

Garvin, George and Kerry are visiting Mt Buller in the next few days. That would seem to be the professional thing to do-see the venue and be able to answer questions which many of you have.

I am happy to help answer any questions that people have in their absence. However, i am not a 'regular' on this bb, i must confess.

Kevin Bonham
31-07-2004, 01:51 AM
Garvin, sorry for not defending you at great length but just as you can't be bothered responding to cincy anymore, so I can't be bothered giving DoroPhil's latest rubbish too much time of day either. I'll just remind everyone that the last we heard, DoroPhil, despite whining about the supposed lack of pro talent in the ranks, isn't himself willing to get a bit of mountain air and play some chess, let alone show us how it's done. A blatant ad hominem but he doesn't deserve any better, and I'll take your definition of maturity (whatever it may be) over his any day,

Libby
31-07-2004, 09:30 AM
Easy, just organise your own event at the same time as mt bullcrap II in Canberra and I bet you get more players! :cool:

No. It's OK to have a whinge and air concerns. It's OK to try to suggest alternatives. It's not OK to not even give something a go and run about trying to scuttle things. I don't think too many organisations prosper when they divide their constituency. Sure - sometimes it's the birth of a new, stronger organisation with fantastic things going for it but more often it leads to a tug-of-war over ownership of the game, alienates parents and juniors (who loathe that kind of behaviour) and we all throw our hands up and quit the whole dirty business.

Mostly, kids have a great time hanging out at the Juniors with other kids. I expect my daughter to be pretty happy in Mt Buller - 11 year olds are easier to please than 40 year olds (and 16 year olds for that matter). I can see no reason why the chess can't be good either. If players want to boycott over cost - they need to make it clear to organisers that the reason they aren't playing is not some contravention of by-law 12.2 of clause 7.6 of etc etc - just that they couldn't budget for an event somewhere like Mt Buller. If the distance and awkwardness of the location is the problem - tell the organisers. Offer real feedback for real problems. Or play the events for the ultimate opportunity for real feedback and the possibility they might go well. Even those with the doubts have to admit that possibility. :)

OK - I forgot to add the $50 to the room price for the 3rd player. Excuse my maths! I didn't like David's prices anyway and that's where you do look for alternatives. Mt Buller is a tiny "hamlet" and everything is close to everything else. Any alternative is OK for the event. Even in Sydney, Melbourne etc some people do stay 5 star and some of us slum it in the dormitories. The deal does not require anybody to stay at the Mercure. :)

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 10:31 AM
I have no problem answering questions from people who are intending to go and my job is to make that easier for them to do it. Of course i will help in that situation.

What i am pissed off and offended about is people who think it is their given right to bitch and complain because they dont agree with something and so they will just say whatever they like, as long as it supports their point of view. If you dont think mt buller was the best option take it up with the acf council, they made the decision to stay at mt buller, I was just one of the organisers for mt buller. They could have chose melbourne if they wished.

Terms like mt bullcrap for instance shows straight away that you are not going, fine then dont go. But you are not helping australian chess short or long term with this attitude.

As Libby has said, she would rather go and then give praise or criticism after wards with an informed decision.

I ask those who are criticising and are saying they arent going, have you seen the venue at all during summer?

If you have not, then you are going on your own perceptions of what it may be like and not what is actually there. You also dont know what the organisers or acf council might come up with in the mean time.

Dont worry guys who have already made up your minds to not go, or who werent going wherever the 4 tournaments were being held, your opinion will be read and then ignored :hand:

To those who are actually asking useful questions and would like genuine answers, i will still be posting. To those who are after genuine information, i would think it is in the best interests of all concerned to also ignore those who have made it plainly clear that they think mt buller is not worth going to.

It is not surprising as i expected it that as soon as i said that if you have complaints, address them to George Howard, i am yet to hear from George and have not been told that any concerns have been raised to him. This just shows how serious you guys who are complaining ad nauseum really are :owned:

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 10:35 AM
The deal does not require anybody to stay at the Mercure. :)
this is the key phrase i think about this accommodation talk. No body has said that you have stay at mercure. Libby and I have posted on now countless occasions the url to find other accommodation. The organisers have given the phone numbers to try and arrange more suitable accommodation at mercure that suits your wishes.

I have said that I will have more information regarding accommodation and other matters on August 4 when I will be in possession of alot more information.

PHAT
31-07-2004, 11:09 AM
What can players expect following their substantial travel time, accommodatation costs, and entry fee !?

I know there are going to be alot of [ :rolleyes: ] at this next question. However, it is an issue that has the potential to adversely effect between 0 and 18 players by thieving ~10% of their chess experience.


Will there be any BYEs ?


Will the bottom rated player receiving the BYE on the first round be compensated for the wasted day of accommodation?

AES
31-07-2004, 11:43 AM
Talk to chief organiser, georgeshoward@hotmail.com

In my opinion, i'm not sure what you're complaining about.

substantial travel time?
yes there will be a bit of travel but it depends how much you want to go.

accommodatation costs?
These are very reasonable and there are other options if you are not happy with the one we have recommended.

entry fees?
What about them matthew? Do you expect everyone to get in for free? They are very, very cheap in my opinion but i must confess i don't know how they compare to previous years.

This will be a great tournament with top international and Australian players.

In terms of byes, talk to George about that one.

I hope, Matthew, you are not one of the people we have been talking about who isn't asking these questions to know the answer but rather to try and criticise this event.

arosar
31-07-2004, 12:00 PM
What can players expect following their substantial travel time, accommodatation costs, and entry fee !?

A deadset 2 weeks of boredom. You're up a bloody hill, play chess and sleep. That's it.

The accomodation is no problem. So answer these questions: what are the available clubs, pubs, strip shows, cinemas, restaurants up there?

What are the transport arrangements between Mel and Mt Buller (to and fro)?

I want these questions answered without reference to a dam.n URL.

AR

DoroPhil
31-07-2004, 12:04 PM
the supposed lack of pro talent in the ranks

So are you saying now that there is enough pro talent in the ranks? Do you have any idea about Gray's credentials and what Gray does for a living?



isn't himself willing to get a bit of mountain air and play some chess, let alone show us how it's done.

Are you just pretending to be stupid now, so that Gray will consider you to be as intellectually impotent as he is? I mean, come on, I am your potential paying customer and I am of opinion that your product is absolute crap, so you suggest that I get involved and help you improve it ?! That's taking a user-centred development approach a bit too far, don't you think?

arosar
31-07-2004, 12:07 PM
Garvin, George and Kerry are visiting Mt Buller in the next few days. That would seem to be the professional thing to do-see the venue and be able to answer questions which many of you have.

Yeah, right! Inspect the venue after the bid. That's reeeaaaallllyyyy professional.

AR

arosar
31-07-2004, 12:08 PM
Garvin, sorry for not defending you at great length . . .

Why the hell does he need your defending? He's appointed himself mouthpiece. If he can't take the heat, then FO!

AR

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 12:12 PM
Will there be any BYEs ?
matt, believe it or not, we are one step ahead of you :D this point has already been discussed, PLAYERS WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO TAKE BYES.

As for the issue of what to do if there is an odd number of players entered, this is still being discussed at this point in time.

Disclaimer- my opinion only so far- that to solve the odd number situation, that for the open/minor, one of the organisers would play in the tournament. Probably that would be Kerry Stead (name offered without consultation of Kerry) for the open, as he is the main contact for the juniors, so would not be a contact for the open/minor and one of the other organisers would play in the minor to make even numbers.

eclectic
31-07-2004, 12:33 PM
matt, believe it or not, we are one step ahead of you :D this point has already been discussed, PLAYERS WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO TAKE BYES.

As for the issue of what to do if there is an odd number of players entered, this is still being discussed at this point in time.



gg,

there is a difference between players asking for byes and players being given a bye

chances are a(n) (non playing) organiser might step in at the beginning to even up the field only to have someone leave later on and thus make the field odd again

all you can guarantee people is that for an eleven round swiss they will get at least ten games

eclectic

PHAT
31-07-2004, 02:01 PM
In my opinion, i'm not sure what you're complaining about. Then read my post again :wall:


substantial travel time?
yes there will be a bit of travel but it depends how much you want to go.

No, I did not complain about that. So, GF#1


accommodatation costs?
These are very reasonable and there are other options if you are not happy with the one we have recommended.[/i]

No, I did not complain about that either. So, GF#2

[quote]entry fees?
What about them matthew? Do you expect everyone to get in for free? They are very, very cheap in my opinion but i must confess i don't know how they compare to previous years.

I did not complain about as well. So, GF#3


This will be a great tournament with top international and Australian players.

I didn't say it wouldn't be. So, GF#4


In terms of byes, talk to George about that one.

By Jove, I think you might have said something helpful.


I hope, Matthew, you are not one of the people we have been talking about who isn't asking these questions to know the answer but rather to try and criticise this event.

Read my (few) contributions to this thread, and compare them with "one of those people['s]" before you tar me with that brush. And so, with that I give you GF #5.

Libby
31-07-2004, 02:06 PM
A deadset 2 weeks of boredom. You're up a bloody hill, play chess and sleep. That's it.

The accomodation is no problem. So answer these questions: what are the available clubs, pubs, strip shows, cinemas, restaurants up there?

What are the transport arrangements between Mel and Mt Buller (to and fro)?

I want these questions answered without reference to a dam.n URL.

AR

Couldn't find any clubs , pubs or strip shows. We don't tend to make use of a lot of those facilities for the Juniors so they weren't on my hit list of complaints. Not even sure that proximity to strip shows should be a prerequisite for chess venues :eek: but being from Canberra I am aware of some of our local extra attractions (these advertise very heavily, and sponsor, the Summernats car festival - perhaps something for the Doeberl organisers to consider?) :lol:

Anyway. Restaurants. (And I know you don't want the URL http://www.mtbuller.com.au/facilities/dining.html)

Mt Buller Dining Guide (all open in summer)
ABOM Bistro
Summit Rd, Telephone 03 5777 7899
Affectionatelyknown as 'the ABOM' by generations of skiers, it offerseverything fromcappuccinos, pizzas, pasta and home-style three coursemeals. Fullylicensed.

Apres Bar in the Mt Buller Chalet Hotel
TheApres Bar is a relaxed and contemporary bar and cafe with quick andfriendly service offering snacks and meals. Offering a full bar andextensive wine list, the Apr?s Bar and Cafe transforms to a hip andgroovy venue for those looking for entertainment after a day on themountain. Live entertainment is scheduled in high season while guestsrelax in the lounge, fireside.

Arlberg Dinning Room
Summit Rd, Telephone 03 5777 6260
Therenovated dining area overlooking the Bourke Street ski run. Greatfoodat hotel prices, all cooked to order. A great place for families.

Black Cockatoo Restaurant, Mt Buller Chalet Hotel
Summit Rd, Telephone 03 5777 6566
Relaxonthe balcony or nestle close to the fire - enjoy lunch with friendsordinner with someone special. The best alpine scenery,outstandingservice and an international style restaurant. Open sevendays:breakfast and dinner. Fully licensed.

Breathtaker Restaurant
Breathtaker Rd, Telephone 03 5777 6377
Enjoyingthe reputation as one on the Alpines finest restaurants withstunningviews. Breathtaker Restaurant offers international a-la-cartecuisine,elegant surroundings, extensive selection of wines along withfriendlyand professional service. Children welcome.

Buller Bar, Elkhorn
Chamois Rd, Telephone 03 5777 6999
Openevery night, the Buller Bar has an inviting atmosphere andservesschnapps, cocktails and beers as well as coffees and hot snacks.Enjoyvideo games or relax and shoot pool. Great for parties. OpenSun-Fri4pm - 12pm and Sat noon - 1am.

Duck Inn
Goal Post Rd, Telephone 03 5777 6326
Full licensed, non smoking restaurant. Open 7 nights, offering innovative cuisine. Reservations essential.

Cinemas - The Mt Buller Village Cinema at La Trobe University will be showing the latest release movies on Saturday nights throughout summer from Christmas onwards. http://www.mtbuller.com.au/activities/cinema.html

Transport (and I don't think it's much fun) but it does exist - The Vline bus travels from Spencer St Station in Melbourne to Mansfield. Cost Mansfield
Economy $64.60 (full fare) $32.20 (concession) $45.00 (off peak full fare) $22.50 (off peak concession) http://www.vline.vic.gov.au/fares.html#NEast%20Vic Actual timetable http://www.vline.vic.gov.au/timetables/northeast/NorthEast_mlb_mnsfld.htm Seems to take just over 3 hours. There is not normally a shuttle to Mt Buller in summer but obviously George is putting this on for FREE anyway.

I'm not trying to be a smart-arse but these things are not too hard to find. It wouldn't matter where you were going to play chess, you'd still have to look up this sort of stuff for yourself unless you knew the town.

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 02:12 PM
Cinemas - The Mt Buller Village Cinema at La Trobe University will be showing the latest release movies on Saturday nights throughout summer from Christmas onwards. http://www.mtbuller.com.au/activities/cinema.html

this will be open much more for us.

PHAT
31-07-2004, 02:17 PM
As for the issue of what to do if there is an odd number of players entered, this is still being discussed at this point in time.

... to solve the odd number situation, that for the open/minor, one of the organisers would play in the tournament.

BYEs are theft!

Gray, First there was the 60m to 90m change. That was great. Now this is a second test. I want the MtB committee to be the most dynamic, forward thinking and player (customer) oriented group ever seen in Astralian chess.

Abolish the BYE.

jenni
31-07-2004, 02:21 PM
Mt Buller Dining Guide (all open in summer)
ABOM Bistro
Summit Rd, Telephone 03 5777 7899
Affectionatelyknown as 'the ABOM' by generations of skiers, it offerseverything fromcappuccinos, pizzas, pasta and home-style three coursemeals. Fullylicensed.



.

This is going to be the venue for the tournaments, so not sure it will be open for dining? This is one of the many questions that George took to Mt Buller from me - how it is all going to hang together, what food will be available, prices, is there anywhere outside for the kids to play etc etc.

I found this picture on the web and it certainly looks a nice venue for a playing hall, if this is what we are getting?

http://www.dreamcatcher.com.au/panoramas/vbulabomrest/index.htm

Libby
31-07-2004, 02:24 PM
BYE are theft!

Gray, First there was the 60m to 90m change. That was great. Now this is a second test. I want the MtB committee to be the most dynamic, forward thinking and player (customer) oriented group ever seen in Astralian chess.

Abolish the BYE.

I'm fascinated to know how an odd number can be made even if the case arises? I guess a double-round each day would ensure everyone plays on every day.

Spare a thought for the U12s. They attend for 13 days but play for 9 - and that's the way the tournament is set up. Some of them may get byes too and actually play on 8 of 13 days. I know the extra byes are meant to help tired little minds but I thought this was partially addressed by reducing their rounds from 11 to 9 - I'm not sure we needed to reduce to 9 with 4 rest days. What is the difference you ask? The original plan had the U12s arriving 2 days later - paying for 11-12 nights on the Mountain and finishing the same day as the U18. Now we start and finish on the same days so pay for 13-14 nights on the Mountain with 4 days of excitement to fill! :owned:

PHAT
31-07-2004, 02:57 PM
I'm fascinated to know how an odd number can be made even if the case arises? I guess a double-round each day would ensure everyone plays on every day.


It is called the "House Player". That person is on call to fill the BYE when ever it occurs. They do not pay an entry fee and may be lucky/ununlucky enough to play between 0 and all rounds. The games are "real" because they are rated just like all the other games.

Both Bob Keast and I do this successfully when running a tournament.


Spare a thought for the U12s. They attend for 13 days but play for 9 - and that's the way the tournament is set up. Some of them may get byes too and actually play on 8 of 13 days.

:eek: That is WEIRD++. You should step into the ring over that one.

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 03:02 PM
It is called the "House Player". That person is on call to fill the BYE when ever it occurs. They do not pay an entry fee and may be lucky/ununlucky enough to play between 0 and all rounds. The games are "real" because they are rated just like all the other games.
and in my opinion the player should be a low rated player so they are paired close to where the bye would have occurred.

Libby
31-07-2004, 04:20 PM
:eek: That is WEIRD++. You should step into the ring over that one.

I should have said extra "rest days" and not extra byes. Should I step in the ring? I'd like to but we have reached a point (for Canberra parents, our accommodation provider etc etc) that changing AGAIN is just not going to wash.

Unfortunately I asked if the dates were the same, I got told yes and I didn't read the fine print until last week. I don't know my tournament/chess well enough to comment on the merits of 9 or 11 rounds in the u12. With the sparse numbers in the Girls u12, it's actually far more sensible (in the last couple of years the girls coming in the top 3 or 4 have ended up playing the players in the bottom 3 or 4 places in the final rounds for lack of any higher ranked player). I thought a sensible compromise from David was that the u12 started 2 days after the u18. Some people were not sure about that on the grounds that families often have children across two age divisions. In response I'd say that their position is unchanged - their u12 child could have had the first two days to frolic in the mountains (or be bored silly waiting for their first game) whilst the older child played. Now every family with a child in the u12 has an extra 2 days to fill sometime over the course of the event and every family has an extra two days accommodation to pay for. I'm looking forward to hearing about the activities planned for those rest days as there are only so many free chairlift rides I can face. :wall:

Libby
31-07-2004, 04:25 PM
It is called the "House Player". That person is on call to fill the BYE when ever it occurs. They do not pay an entry fee and may be lucky/ununlucky enough to play between 0 and all rounds. The games are "real" because they are rated just like all the other games.



OK. I can see how that might keep the troops happy when you have a bye in the draw because someone has elected to go to the footy for the afternoon. At an Aus Champ event (with a captive playing group in Mt Buller - no escaping) aren't byes more likely to be as a result of an odd number of entries? Wouldn't the house player just become a participant in the event, required to play every round? You wouldn't want to chop & change your house player surely with a different organiser lobbing in from round to round? :confused: pls excuse the sheila her ignorance

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 04:37 PM
At an Aus Champ event (with a captive playing group in Mt Buller - no escaping) aren't byes more likely to be as a result of an odd number of entries? Wouldn't the house player just become a participant in the event, required to play every round? You wouldn't want to chop & change your house player surely with a different organiser lobbing in from round to round? :confused: pls excuse the sheila her ignorance

ill health could be another reason why a bye occurs. withdrawal near end of tourney is another. But yes odd number of entries is most likely reason for the bye. Im trying to work out what exact point you are trying to make though :confused:

Libby
31-07-2004, 05:39 PM
ill health could be another reason why a bye occurs. withdrawal near end of tourney is another. But yes odd number of entries is most likely reason for the bye. Im trying to work out what exact point you are trying to make though :confused:

Not trying to make a point really. I was just wondering how byes were avoided in tournaments with odd numbers (since Matthew wants that problem solved). Seems a bit odd to me that any stray player could be inserted but not so odd if that's the actual practice. Just learning :) Probably one for the arbiters in reality.

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 05:47 PM
Not trying to make a point really. I was just wondering how byes were avoided in tournaments with odd numbers (since Matthew wants that problem solved). Seems a bit odd to me that any stray player could be inserted but not so odd if that's the actual practice. Just learning :) Probably one for the arbiters in reality.
its not common practice. Mainly it depends on what the tournament organisers rate as important. Some TO(tournament organisers) consider letting everyone who paid their money have their full amount of rounds as most important, other TO consider the purity of swissperfect as most important and so will not have a spare player available. The third one is that there is no extra player available :uhoh:

I added that i think the spare player should be a low rated player so that player would be quite close to the player that would have had the bye.

arosar
31-07-2004, 07:01 PM
Or play the events for the ultimate opportunity for real feedback and the possibility they might go well. Even those with the doubts have to admit that possibility.

Problem with you Libby is that you're a woman. And you know what you women are like: always playing nice. Too compassionate. To understanding and all that. Now, I can see you're a nice person - but this just ain't gonna cut it.

If you're not happy about something then why bother subjecting yourself to it hoping against hope that it might turn out OK?

I know you're not very happy with Mt Buller. You're attitude towards it is half-hearted. We can tell. So stop playing nice and withdraw your intent to go.

AR

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 07:08 PM
i dont think libby is able to PLAY nice ;) :lol:

Bill Gletsos
31-07-2004, 07:40 PM
Not trying to make a point really. I was just wondering how byes were avoided in tournaments with odd numbers (since Matthew wants that problem solved). Seems a bit odd to me that any stray player could be inserted but not so odd if that's the actual practice. Just learning :) Probably one for the arbiters in reality.
It isnt really normal practice to eliminate byes by inserting players.

Matt just has an issue with the lowest scoring player getting BYES.

Perhaps this is because he often gets them. :hand:

Libby
31-07-2004, 07:43 PM
Problem with you Libby is that you're a woman. And you know what you women are like: always playing nice. Too compassionate. To understanding and all that. Now, I can see you're a nice person - but this just ain't gonna cut it.

If you're not happy about something then why bother subjecting yourself to it hoping against hope that it might turn out OK?

I know you're not very happy with Mt Buller. You're attitude towards it is half-hearted. We can tell. So stop playing nice and withdraw your intent to go.

AR

Hmm - always playing nice? No, not really. I'm not too good on the personal popularity vote except with those for whom sarcasm is a big 747. Problem is, as I've said before, I'm not the player. I make that choice for another. I make that choice for her school team who have qualified for the first time. In that respect, I'm far too nice and far too soft - PMS - parent marshmallow syndrome. I'd have to go on Dr Phil to publicly flay myself with the weight of my guilt. :(

I wouldn't say my attitude to Mt Buller is half-hearted. I am fully committed to preferring a different venue. That leaves me quite open to a crap-load of egg on my face if the event is a resounding success. I don't think my daughter will have a terrible time but I might expire with boredom myself. Proximity to a bookshop is important to me at any Aussie Jnr - especially so when I shall be barred from the Guest Library at the Chalet - sigh.

I started volunteering in sport when I was 13, you learn the value of a little diplomacy over time (ask Jenni who often feels I exhibit little diplomacy even now!) It doesn't have to be a sell-out. There are ways to bring people around and ways to alienate those who may once have had some sympathy for your point of view. I'd be so much more interesting if I jumped up and down being more controversial - point taken. At risk of sounding completely full of myself, I also have to remember I have a role in representing ACT juniors. I can't get much done if everyone has a skull-and-crossbones "pop-up" accompany my emails. Sorry to be so disappointing ... :)

cincinnatus
31-07-2004, 07:57 PM
Does anyone remember the brouhaha created by an anonymous poster on this BB (or rather, its antecedent) who, after the entry forms for the last Australian Championship in Melbourne were mailed, drew the ACF Council's attention to Clause 35 of the By-laws for ACF Tournaments concerning entry fee concessions? There was no serious suggestion on that occassion that the ACF Council just overide the By-law with a simple majority vote.

Or the concern generated by the financial management of a recent Australian Championship, after which Clauses 23 and 24 were added.

Or the selection disputes that have bedevilled the ACF in recent years.

Settling each of these matters consumed time and cost money! To avoid similar future problems the ACF modified its By-laws to direct future ACF Councils. Those who cannot learn from history ... Well, you know how the quote goes and Kevin will even tell you where it comes from.

cincinnatus
31-07-2004, 08:07 PM
Oh, and by the way ...

I've learned who the signatories are ...

Frankly, I'm surprised that Council would accept this as an expression of good faith - rather than the contrary.

Rincewind
31-07-2004, 08:21 PM
Cincinnatus, are you sure you didn't mistype your handle when you signed up? I would have thought Tinnitus was more apt.

eclectic
31-07-2004, 08:28 PM
Cincinnatus, are you sure you didn't mistype your handle when you signed up? I would have thought Tinnitus was more apt.

barry,

no,

if he was back in his usual place ie at his farm ploughing manure laden fields barefoot then i'm sure you would mean ...

tetanus

not

tinnitus

:owned:

eclectic

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 09:25 PM
I've learned who the signatories are ...
well then, tell everyone.

Garvinator
31-07-2004, 09:34 PM
after the entry forms for the last Australian Championship in Melbourne were mailed, drew the ACF Council's attention to Clause 35 of the By-laws for ACF Tournaments concerning entry fee concessions?
wasnt the last australian championship held in adelaide run by Andrew and Alex Saint and co.

the last Australian open was in penrith.

australian championship in melbourne was played in 2001-2002.

Kevin Bonham
31-07-2004, 11:18 PM
So are you saying now that there is enough pro talent in the ranks?

What I mean is that the vast majority of tournaments in this country, including many of the major ones, are run largely by people who did not study rocket science at Harvard. :eek:


Do you have any idea about Gray's credentials and what Gray does for a living?

Only what has been previously posted here, which is more than I know about yours and more than you know about the majority of people to whom the ACF has awarded major events in the past. You have not complained on these BBs before AFAIK.


Are you just pretending to be stupid now, so that Gray will consider you to be as intellectually impotent as he is?

I'm afraid your calling people stupid (or pretending to be so) over and over will only prove your lack of imagination until you find better rebuttals than:


I mean, come on, I am your potential paying customer

Incorrect. I am not involved with the bid (merely a member of the Council which approved it), but more importantly you have categorically dismissed playing at Mt Buller, eg:


As someone who lives in Melbourne and works full-time, I would consider taking time off work in order to play in Melbourne, but no effing way I am going to Mount bloody Buller in summer!

... therefore your criticisms of Garvin are not the responses of a potential customer but those of a disgruntled would-be spoiler.


and I am of opinion that your product is absolute crap, so you suggest that I get involved and help you improve it ?! That's taking a user-centred development approach a bit too far, don't you think?

Chess tournaments in Australia run almost entirely on the same user-centred development approach that you deride, in case you haven't noticed. Only it's a very small proportion of users doing the developing. :rolleyes:

We've seen one pro attempt to run this Mt Buller bid already. It was farcical and I still don't feel I've got the complete story of why that attempt was withdrawn even after loads of discussion with some of the people involved. Give the amateurs a go instead of being so mean-spirited. You could learn a lot from the approach being taken by Libby and Jenni, which I totally respect. They are still willing to give the thing a go when their concerns about it are a lot more legitimate than yours. :hand:

[EDIT: fix major grammar ?? ]

Kevin Bonham
31-07-2004, 11:57 PM
Does anyone remember the brouhaha created by an anonymous poster on this BB (or rather, its antecedent)

Distant ancestor, to be exact. :lol:


who, after the entry forms for the last Australian Championship in Melbourne were mailed, drew the ACF Council's attention to Clause 35 of the By-laws for ACF Tournaments concerning entry fee concessions? There was no serious suggestion on that occassion that the ACF Council just overide the By-law with a simple majority vote.

Because it would not have acheived any desirable outcome and would probably have been an illegal move.


Or the concern generated by the financial management of a recent Australian Championship, after which Clauses 23 and 24 were added.

Or the selection disputes that have bedevilled the ACF in recent years.

Settling each of these matters consumed time and cost money! To avoid similar future problems the ACF modified its By-laws to direct future ACF Councils.

Advise, not direct. If we wanted to direct future ACF Councils that strongly we could have put such rules in the Constitution.

(Incidentally, which By-laws do you actually think we overrode? I have already disposed of your concern re By-Laws for ACF Tournaments #18.)


Those who cannot learn from history ... Well, you know how the quote goes

You don't, you already got part of it wrong. :P


and Kevin will even tell you where it comes from.

Well, you got that right, but only because I let you. George Santayana, never one of my favourite philosophers. The correct quote is "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (1905). Its use in modern public debate almost invariably signals an attempt to gloss over the differences between past and present situations and likely consequences, and imply absolute general principles where few or none exist. No matter how many times this unsound approach is debunked, those employing it do not learn. :hmm:


Oh, and by the way ...

I've learned who the signatories are ...

Frankly, I'm surprised that Council would accept this as an expression of good faith - rather than the contrary.

Not having read the contract (unless somebody leaked it to you) I am mystified as to how you think you understand the situation well enough to make this comment.

Kevin Bonham
01-08-2004, 12:13 AM
wasnt the last australian championship held in adelaide run by Andrew and Alex Saint and co.

In defence of our mysterious friend (just for a change) I believe he means "the last Australian Championship to be held in Melbourne", not "the last Australian Championship, which was held in Melbourne".

Garvinator
01-08-2004, 12:55 AM
In defence of our mysterious friend (just for a change) I believe he means "the last Australian Championship to be held in Melbourne", not "the last Australian Championship, which was held in Melbourne".
we could really try for a pedant master norm here :P

AES
01-08-2004, 02:21 AM
Yeah, right! Inspect the venue after the bid. That's reeeaaaallllyyyy professional.

AR

Amiel, mate. I think you seem like a pretty reasonable person and have many good ideas but give us a break here.

George had already been up there to meet with Mecure officials. This took place before the bid.

Please don't complain like this when you don't know all the facts. I think it is disappointing that you seem intent on criticising this event from any angle you can. It is very easy to criticise but difficult to run an event.

We are happy to accept criticisms/suggestions and answer queries, but comments such as this are unproductive and MOST importantly, uninformed.

Thanks,

Alex.

PHAT
01-08-2004, 07:03 AM
And you know what you women are like: always playing nice. Too compassionate. To understanding and all that.


You poor dear boy. Obviously you have never had your heart broken.

jenni
01-08-2004, 11:41 AM
Amiel, mate. I think you seem like a pretty reasonable person and have many good ideas but give us a break here.


Alex.
No he's not - he likes to stir and create a bit of drama to enliven his life!

arosar
01-08-2004, 12:35 PM
No he's not - he likes to stir and create a bit of drama to enliven his life!

Aaahhh...but only me BB life. Without stirrers we'd all be bored schit.less. Dead set.

AR

arosar
01-08-2004, 12:47 PM
. . . you don't know all the facts.

Certain sections of the chess public would like to know this: the full budget.

AR

arosar
01-08-2004, 12:58 PM
. . . I might expire with boredom myself.

And because of that, this event will be a complete disaster.

AR

ursogr8
01-08-2004, 01:19 PM
Does anyone remember the brouhaha created by an anonymous poster on this BB (or rather, its antecedent) who, after the entry forms for the last Australian Championship in Melbourne were mailed, drew the ACF Council's attention to Clause 35 of the By-laws for ACF Tournaments concerning entry fee concessions?
Actually Cin. (can I call you Cin.) I don't remember much about this brouhaha about entry fee concessions. Now I am an addict for reading about mexican chess politics (and yes, I know, I should get a life), but I can't remember reading much about this at all. Was it one of those issues that David B. had issue with ChessVICTORIA? Are you now saying the issue was really with the ACF? So is this where MT B. brouhaha firelighter had its genisis? That would really make it a dish best served cold.
Can you tell us more about this long gone dispute? The BB enjoys disputes being laid bare. Now let me see if we have the story so far; on one side we have the ACF (full of characters with varying agendas). On the other side we have who?
> the MCC. As I heard it they had the high moral ground in the dispute since they had signed a contract and simply wanted the conditions to be honoured. But I think they no longer harbour a grudge.
>> ChessVIC. I think they were just trying to be an honest broker. Time has moved them on.
>>> You. On a Mt B. thread, talking about old brouhahas.


Well Cin. we are all ears. Tell us about the brouhaha. Incidentally, I think your case is supportable, FWIIW.

starter

ps Kevin, I think it is Absolutely Fabulous.

ursogr8
01-08-2004, 01:26 PM
Certain sections of the chess public would like to know this: the full budget.

AR

Amiel
You and I could have a falling out over this attitude of yours to Mt B.
Give them a go mate.

By all means ask them the hard questions. But don't presume that they don't have the answers or will work them out.
starter

arosar
01-08-2004, 02:49 PM
Give them a go mate.

Very well...does it come with a moneyback guarantee?

AR

ursogr8
02-08-2004, 10:24 AM
Very well...does it come with a moneyback guarantee?

AR

AR
Before ''yy'' gets in with his one-liner, I can give the answer to your question.


>>>>Ask George.


starter

cincinnatus
02-08-2004, 12:02 PM
#334

This by-law crap is the friggin' deadhorse. It ain't gettin' up lemme tell youse.

I quite agree.

#333

You have not given any evidence of a by-law breach that has stood up, ... there is no breach of the by-laws.

Kevin, it soon became clear that your (and Bill's) answer to any and all By-law breaches would be that Council can overrule By-laws at will.

Try the By-laws for ACF Tournaments, By-law #4 (Australian School Teams Championships): "2. a. The Championships are to be held on a date or dates in December of each year to be determined by the Council." But then, you have your standard defence.

I then limited my attention to Finance and the Constitution (which some (ggrayggray, #287) were slow to pick up on). I tried to more clearly make the By-law/Constitution distinction in #326.

The whole Mt. Buller I/Mt. Buller II transition has been dangerously flawed, but I myself excused it by suggesting that "desperate times (the collapse of Mt. Buller I) call for desperate measures (a solution outside of the By-laws)" (#326). The Council's determination to run away from the By-laws and Constitution in their support of the bid (and GH) is regrettable, not least because such inattention to detail in the past has been costly.

Closer attention to "the rules" would only be prudent.

doc
02-08-2004, 12:07 PM
Cinny, i quite agree with your comments. This will be, without a doubt, one of the biggest mistakes made in Australian chess history.

PHAT
02-08-2004, 02:53 PM
Cinni, I concur with your assessment of the MB1->MB2 transition. However, I put this direct and specific question to you: Who might going take this to court - and win?

[BTW, my bet is that you are Gary Wastell. If you are not, then a big beg-your-pardon to the real Gary Wastell.]

arosar
02-08-2004, 03:04 PM
This is all the more reason why we cannot support this event. We must turn our back on this event. Sooner or later, this will bite us back on our collective behinds, lemme tell youse.

The junior mob should immediately withdraw their support!

AR

AES
02-08-2004, 06:02 PM
This is all the more reason why we cannot support this event. We must turn our back on this event. Sooner or later, this will bite us back on our collective behinds, lemme tell youse.

The junior mob should immediately withdraw their support!

AR

:wall:

AES
02-08-2004, 06:17 PM
Cinny, i quite agree with your comments. This will be, without a doubt, one of the biggest mistakes made in Australian chess history.

How is this a mistake? We haven't even had the event yet! :clap:

AROSAR, CINNY and DOC, you can't list these demands of what questions we should answer and then expect us to remain on here when you take these pathetic cheap shots. Which one do you want? You can't have it both ways.

What do others think of their comments? Is it fair go?
Do we need a moderator to step in here and start filtering this out?

Kevin Bonham
02-08-2004, 06:34 PM
Kevin, it soon became clear that your (and Bill's) answer to any and all By-law breaches would be that Council can overrule By-laws at will.

So? The onus is still on you to demonstrate that there are by-law breaches if you wish to run an argument about whether the ACF should be overturning its by-laws.


Try the By-laws for ACF Tournaments, By-law #4 (Australian School Teams Championships): "2. a. The Championships are to be held on a date or dates in December of each year to be determined by the Council." But then, you have your standard defence.

Ensure facts are engaged before putting mouth in gear next time - the Schools Teams Championships have indeed been awarded to George's group and will be held on 4-5 December 2004. Are you confusing the School Teams Champs with the Aus Juniors in your haste to score a point? Not very good at this, are you? :rolleyes:


I then limited my attention to Finance and the Constitution (which some (ggrayggray, #287) were slow to pick up on). I tried to more clearly make the By-law/Constitution distinction in #326.

Indeed, but you failed to prove any breach of the Constitution either, so that is irrelevant.


The whole Mt. Buller I/Mt. Buller II transition has been dangerously flawed,

The only thing dangerously flawed is your beat-up.

The only things it endangers are our time and your credibility.


but I myself excused it by suggesting that "desperate times (the collapse of Mt. Buller I) call for desperate measures (a solution outside of the By-laws)" (#326). The Council's determination to run away from the By-laws and Constitution in their support of the bid (and GH) is regrettable, not least because such inattention to detail in the past has been costly.

Closer attention to "the rules" would only be prudent.

You are the one who needs to pay closer attention to both the rules and the facts. You have not demonstrated a single irregularity yet.


Cinny, i quite agree with your comments. This will be, without a doubt, one of the biggest mistakes made in Australian chess history.

Time you learnt to think for yourself, doc. cincinnatus' hopelessly flawed arguments are doing your cause no favours and you only hurt your own credibility by supporting them.


[BTW, my bet is that you are Gary Wastell. If you are not, then a big beg-your-pardon to the real Gary Wastell.]

cincinnatus is certainly not Gary Wastell because Gary as ACF D-P represented ACF for the purpose of overseeing the deal between Mt B and George. Gary knows the answers to many of the questions cincinnatus has asked and also knows the constitution and by-laws much, much better. For the same reasons, cincinnatus is certainly not jammo.

PHAT
02-08-2004, 07:08 PM
What do others think of their comments? Is it fair go?
Do we need a moderator to step in here and start filtering this out?
NO MODERATOR!

Christ all-bloody Mighty.

You, gray et al. just keep rebutting, and you will silence them with holy goodness.

PHAT
02-08-2004, 07:12 PM
cincinnatus is certainly not Gary Wastell because Gary as ACF D-P represented ACF for the purpose of overseeing the deal between Mt B and George. Gary knows the answers to many of the questions cincinnatus has asked and also knows the constitution and by-laws much, much better. For the same reasons, cincinnatus is certainly not jammo.

OK, big sorry to GW. However, I have read GW's email style and it is very similar to the posts here.

Kevin Bonham
02-08-2004, 08:00 PM
What do others think of their comments? Is it fair go?
Do we need a moderator to step in here and start filtering this out?

It's nowhere near "fair go" but if anyone wanted me to start moderating for stuff like that I would have to charge because it would be too much work, there is too much nonsense here to moderate for nonsense as a volunteer. Plus I like to see these things debated openly, and I think just about all neutral parties (except arosar who's a known stirrer) can see that this rubbish coming from several Melbournians is just trolling because they are cut about the bid not being granted to their city/club/business associate/whatever.

Incidentally I've deleted some posts solely concerned with the ID of cincinnatus, having previously warned that same would be deleted not moved (there is a cincinnatus ID thread in the non-chess section). I have left Matt's retraction up as I think it is helpful to allow an individual to retract a claim on the thread on which it's made.

Lucena
02-08-2004, 11:04 PM
Cincinnatus, are you sure you didn't mistype your handle when you signed up? I would have thought Tinnitus was more apt.

drat someone beat me to it :doh:

Oepty
03-08-2004, 11:34 AM
Amiel. Can you please stop your trouble making in this thread. You have made your point clear and I agree that having, especially the junior events, at Mt Buller is not ideal. I do though have a great amount of confidence in the abilities of the committee to bring to make the tournaments as good as is possible. They are trying to address some of the fair concerns that have been rasied and I am sure are arranging some great activities at Mt Buller. They cannot do the impossible and move Mt Buller to the middle of Melbourne or Sydney, so some of your demands for things like strip shows and the like just can not be catered for. If this means you are not going to Mt Buller then so be it, BUT THE ORGANISERS ARE TRYING TO ORGANISE A CHESS TOURNAMENT NOT A ADULT ENTERTAINMENT CONFERENCE.
Scott

arosar
03-08-2004, 12:58 PM
Yeah ... but Scott, after a hard day's chess you want a bit of stress-relief. You go out, have fun, party, have a bit of a piss-up, whatever right. And besides, a lot of players are tourists anyway. What do you expect them to do: just eat, sleep and play chess? It's even worse for my Mexicans brothers and sisters cos they're in a case of being 'so near yet so far'. The rock is too close to home to be a holiday, but too far to travel to daily. I would urge them to not go at all.

Anyway, some sections in the community are very much interested in some details like the budget and how the promises of GMs/IMs are being paid for. My insider info tells me that even certain well-placed individuals within the ACF do not know this. Are you well-placed yourself Scott to obtain a bit of a leak?

Any assistance you can render is greatly appreciated.

AR

arosar
03-08-2004, 01:13 PM
Do we need a moderator to step in here and start filtering this out?

This is yet another example of the totally disrespectful, unprofessional, and insulting manner in which this mob has chosen to treat their potential customers. Instead of trying to convince people, they've, instead, chosen to erect a wall around themselves.

First, there was gray's unfortunate emotional breakdown and now this tantrum. What next? An 'I GIVE UP' from Mr Howard in December?

AR

Oepty
03-08-2004, 01:28 PM
Are you well-placed yourself Scott to obtain a bit of a leak?

Any assistance you can render is greatly appreciated.

AR

Amiel. I am not goinng to tell you or write on the this BB anything I might be told in confidence. It is the wrong thing to do and one quick way to get into trouble. Having said that I currently am not privy to any inside information about what has been planned for the Mt Buller tournaments, anything to do with the budget, how the GM's/IM's are going to be payed for and I don't expect to be. One bit of information though is it appears the offical website will be up on August the 23rd.
Scott

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 01:30 PM
First, there was gray's unfortunate emotional breakdown and now this tantrum. What next? An 'I GIVE UP' from Mr Howard in December?
no, next is a blanket ban from the organising committee on answering any questions that you ask, whether they be reasonable or not. And this comment is no joke.

Oepty
03-08-2004, 01:40 PM
Garvin. Perhaps what should be done is none of the organising committee post anything to do with the tournaments except in the Annoucements thread and perhaps that be limited to one person. The way you and others have been treated by some is disgraceful. Keep up the good work.
Scott

arosar
03-08-2004, 01:41 PM
no, next is a blanket ban from the organising committee on answering any questions that you ask, whether they be reasonable or not. And this comment is no joke.

This is not a good policy gray. You're really quite an emotional person you know that gray?

AR

Oepty
03-08-2004, 02:05 PM
Amiel. So what if Garvin's an emotional person. Isn't the point rather whether he will do a good job with organising the Mt Buller tournaments. I am very confident he will do an excellent job. Just get off their back and let them get on with doing the organising
Scott

arosar
03-08-2004, 02:11 PM
Hang on sec ... what exactly am I doing to be, figuratively, on their backs?

And oh, btw, they set the tone; they set the expectation of posting here and communicating here.

So tell me Scott, is all this getting a bit too hard, is it? What else is in the too-hard basket? Are you now the proxy spokesman for the team Scott? gray has given up, has he?

AR

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 02:14 PM
This is not a good policy gray. You're really quite an emotional person you know that gray?

AR
actually im one of the most cold hearted people you can possibly meet when im dealing with crap. Im not being emotional actually amiel. I was just expressing in a very forceful way the opinions of the entire organising committee, that we have had a gutful of your continuous bitching.

You obviously have realised that when you asked sensible questions, I gave you the best answers i could. When you have posted negative comments, i have given you negative answers and this will continue.

If you dont believe me, have a look at how other ppl have been posting about your comments- in short they have been telling you to either be more positive or shut up :hand:

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 02:17 PM
Are you now the proxy spokesman for the team Scott? gray has given up, has he?

AR
if scott was the spokesperson for the organising team, you would be getting very little accurate information regarding mt buller (on second thoughts, that could be a good idea for answering amiels questions :owned: )

I have absolutely given up in regards to answering you seriously. FOR EVERYONE ELSE, i have no problems given them accurate answers as best as i know them.

arosar
03-08-2004, 02:19 PM
You seem really upset gray. Why are you upset mate? Mate, it really upsets me that you're upset. We're all just asking a lot of questions, that's all. Don't be upset.

Have you got those budget figures yet?

AR

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 02:23 PM
Have you got those budget figures yet?
yes i do have the budget figures. I have always had the budget figures. I have posted what all the players will need to know about prizemoney etc. All the rest is commercial in confidence between the organisers, acf council and accor as cannot be released without permission of all three parties.

I am going to invoke my trademark and say- if you have any questions regarding budget specifics or dont like the answers i give- email George at georgeshoward@hotmail.com
:owned:

Oepty
03-08-2004, 02:24 PM
Hang on sec ... what exactly am I doing to be, figuratively, on their backs?

And oh, btw, they set the tone; they set the expectation of posting here and communicating here.

So tell me Scott, is all this getting a bit too hard, is it? What else is in the too-hard basket? Are you now the proxy spokesman for the team Scott? gray has given up, has he?

AR

I am spokesman for no one I am just calling it as I see it and as I see it you are being totally unfair to Garvin and the other members of the organising committee. Your repeated stating that you don't want to go is tiresome, we only needed to hear that once. Your call for others not to go is destructive. Look at the annoucements thread and you will see that they are doing the best they can to accomadate everyone needs. They won't succeed mainly because people like you want everything to be absolutely perfect and that is impossible no matter where the tournaments are held.
Scott

arosar
03-08-2004, 02:27 PM
All the rest is commercial in confidence between the organisers, acf council and accor as cannot be released without permission of all three parties.

OK gray, you are sooo in trouble now....

AR

arosar
03-08-2004, 02:29 PM
Your call for others not to go is destructive.

You have your favour to do. I have my duty.

AR

jenni
03-08-2004, 02:30 PM
Yeah ... but Scott, after a hard day's chess you want a bit of stress-relief. You go out, have fun, party, have a bit of a piss-up, whatever right. And besides, a lot of players are tourists anyway. What do you expect them to do: just eat, sleep and play chess? It's even worse for my Mexicans brothers and sisters cos they're in a case of being 'so near yet so far'. The rock is too close to home to be a holiday, but too far to travel to daily. I would urge them to not go at all.



AR

Amiel - have a look at this site. It is the bar attached to the venue. From what I have been told it is going to be opening every day (I think 4:30 was the time I heard?) to allow lots of socialising.

http://www.dreamcatcher.com.au/panoramas/vbulabombar/index.htm

there are advantages to being in a small place like Mt Buller - no driving for an hour into the suburbs to get home, so everyone can hang aound and socialise. Of course this might not be an advantage if they are people you don't want to be with. :)

Oepty
03-08-2004, 02:32 PM
if scott was the spokesperson for the organising team, you would be getting very little accurate information regarding mt buller (on second thoughts, that could be a good idea for answering amiels questions :owned: )

I have absolutely given up in regards to answering you seriously. FOR EVERYONE ELSE, i have no problems given them accurate answers as best as i know them.

Garvin. If I was the spokesman for the committee, I would be on the committee and would make sure that what I put out was accurate.
Scott

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 02:35 PM
Garvin. If I was the spokesman for the committee, I would be on the committee and would make sure that what I put out was accurate.
Scott
actually i was just giving amiel crap as usual ;)

Oepty
03-08-2004, 02:37 PM
I thought so, but it could have been read a different way
Scott

arosar
03-08-2004, 02:39 PM
there are advantages to being in a small place like Mt Buller - no driving for an hour into the suburbs to get home, so everyone can hang aound and socialise. Of course this might not be an advantage if they are people you don't want to be with. :)

Yeah...thanks jenni.

It's not the bloody cost I'm worried about. It's what to friggin do for 2 weeks! That's my main angle. (But I'll gladly exploit anyone else's).

Problem with these blokes running the show is that they're all a bunch of reactionaries.

AR

arosar
03-08-2004, 02:41 PM
actually i was just giving amiel crap as usual ;)

Which is what you give everyone else as usual.

AR

jeffrei
03-08-2004, 02:48 PM
I should start off by saying that the openness on the part of the organizers is much appreciated by me, at least. And it’s useful tool for reassurance/persuasion – I probably would not have decided to attend the events if Garvin and others hadn’t been willing to openly communicate about what’s going on. Nonetheless, I have some concerns:


Hi All,

Actually the food question is serious. About half the Chalet rooms have kitchens - and yes if you so desire you can bring whatever food you want.

Least I think this question about food was serious.

George Howard


When we were leaving, Roman told us that they have had alot of enquires and the rooms with kitchens have already been booked out. Seems some ppl arent as sceptical as amiel, or have been to mt buller before and realise what the mercure is like.

Excuse me for being as skeptical as Amiel. You’re saying that half of the rooms have been booked out already? For the whole four weeks? I find that kinda hard to believe, especially since they are asking for a 100% deposit up-front that amounts (for me at least - adult twin share room for 26 nights) to $3120.


the mercure have agreed to alter their menu quite a bit to fit in with what our players diets might require eg extra asian type options etc. Prices will be just like a normal city restaurant. So you will be paying the same amount for food as you would be in the city if you eat at the mercure restaurants.

When you say ‘the mercure has agreed’, you make it sound like you guys had specifically requested that they change their menu. Is this actually what happened? I personally would prefer they promise to keep the menu exactly the same as in winter and allow you to publish that menu. That way we could be guarded against any sudden inflationary tactics. If they say prices will be the same as a ‘normal city restaurant’ that doesn’t reassure me in the slightest since it’s such an arbitrary description.

PS: I should say…I don’t mind missing out on a room with a kitchen, since I didn’t want to pay extra for something I wouldn’t end up using. But I’m guessing there are quite a few people out there who did want rooms with kitchens and hadn’t managed to scrape together the funds yet. Not everyone has this kind of money lying around, and some families will need to pay up-front a lot more than the $3120 figure for myself I quoted above.

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 02:52 PM
You’re saying that half of the rooms have been booked out already?
and so you should not believe that, cause that interpretation would be just plain and flat wrong. The rooms with kitchens have been booked already. There arent that many from what i was hearing. Also the deposit level is 50% according to George as we were leaving mt buller.

arosar
03-08-2004, 02:54 PM
The rooms with kitchens have been booked already.

By whom?

AR

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 02:58 PM
When you say ‘the mercure has agreed’, you make it sound like you guys had specifically requested that they change their menu. Is this actually what happened? now this one is correct. I did suggest to George and put in a point of view about what would possibly sell more food for them during summer and Roman agreed to look into it as they can cook anything. I just have to consult with a few ppl, especially those who want asian meals etc.

remember mt buller is a ghost town in summer, so mercure is willing to do quite a bit to help us. there is no point in them having a menu that no one is going to eat.



I personally would prefer they promise to keep the menu exactly the same as in winter and allow you to publish that menu. That way we could be guarded against any sudden inflationary tactics. If they say prices will be the same as a ‘normal city restaurant’ that doesn’t reassure me in the slightest since it’s such an arbitrary description. i will chase this up further and get it sorted out. I have a feeling that most ppl will buy essentials from the supermarket and will probably pick up a few other items as well.

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 03:01 PM
By whom?

AR
as i clearly posted in the announcements thread, we as organisers arent handling accommodation enquiries so i dont know. I was just told that as we were leaving.

arosar
03-08-2004, 03:01 PM
remember mt buller is a ghost town in summer [?]

Yeah we know mate! Thanks for reminding us!

(Geez...are you careless or what?)

AR

jeffrei
03-08-2004, 03:13 PM
i will chase this up further and get it sorted out.

Thanks Garvin. I'd very much like to see a menu put on here and they just say 'all this stuff will definitely be available at exactly these prices'. Of course if they want to put on extra things as well that would be good.


and so you should not believe that, cause that interpretation would be just plain and flat wrong. The rooms with kitchens have been booked already. There arent that many from what i was hearing. Also the deposit level is 50% according to George as we were leaving mt buller.

I rang up the hotel and was quoted a 100% deposit around two weeks ago. I’m very sure about this as I thought it was excessive and questioned them about it. Have things changed since then? If so that’s good I think 50% is more reasonable.

Do you know how George got the impression that ‘about half’ of the rooms had kitchens? Exactly how many rooms do have kitchens?
Like I said, it didn’t affect me directly, but it did affect the advice I was giving to other people. For instance it has caused me to misadvise one family (mum, dad, chess kid, nonchessplaying brother). They wanted to save food money by taking a room with the kitchen, but said they’d have trouble getting the $5720 (would be $2860 now if the deposit is 50% - same principle applies) deposit ready. I said it would probably be reasonable for them to wait a few weeks and save up, given that it would take time for anywhere near half of the rooms to get taken.

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 03:30 PM
Do you know how George got the impression that ‘about half’ of the rooms had kitchens? Exactly how many rooms do have kitchens?
Like I said, it didn’t affect me directly, but it did affect the advice I was giving to other people. For instance it has caused me to misadvise one family (mum, dad, chess kid, nonchessplaying brother). They wanted to save money by taking a room with the kitchen, but said they’d have trouble getting the $5720 (would be $2860 now if the deposit is 50% - same principle applies) deposit ready. I said it would probably be reasonable for them to wait a few weeks and save up, given that it would take time for half of the rooms to get taken.
ill ring mercure shortly and get this sorted out about what the actual deposit rate is etc.

jenni
03-08-2004, 04:37 PM
ill ring mercure shortly and get this sorted out about what the actual deposit rate is etc.

Sonia Song told me they had been asked for a 50% deposit for a room with a kitchen.

PHAT
03-08-2004, 04:39 PM
It's even worse for my Mexicans brothers and sisters cos they're in a case of being 'so near yet so far'. The rock is too close to home to be a holiday, but too far to travel to daily.

No, AR, it is nothing like the problem of having an event in Penrith.

PHAT
03-08-2004, 04:49 PM
It's not the bloody cost I'm worried about. It's what to friggin do for 2 weeks! That's my main angle. (But I'll gladly exploit anyone else's).


I have lost count of the number of times people have told me that their old mothers would say to them as kids, "Boring people are bored".

arosar
03-08-2004, 04:54 PM
Hey Matt....if you go up on that rock, will you entertain us all as you entertain us here?

AR

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 04:55 PM
Sonia Song told me they had been asked for a 50% deposit for a room with a kitchen.
picture clarified on this in the annoucement thread. they have seven days to pay the 50% from booking date or they lose their place.

PHAT
03-08-2004, 04:57 PM
graygray,

How about a ruling on BYEs. Will you be having a house player or not?

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 04:58 PM
graygray,

How about a ruling on BYEs. Will you be having a house player or not?
answer provided in announcement thread, i was getting to that ;)

PHAT
03-08-2004, 05:04 PM
Hey Matt....if you go up on that rock, will you entertain us all as you entertain us here?

AR

Live performances are so much better than recordings.

arosar
03-08-2004, 05:07 PM
Look....I'm not sure I agree with this notion of inserting rope-ins just to avoid a bye. From the point of view of contest, there's something unsporting about it. gray, you should not accede so readily to Matt's insistence.

AR

PHAT
03-08-2004, 05:13 PM
answer provided in announcement thread, i was getting to that ;)

I see it! You bloody beauty!

First the 60mins to 90 mins change. Now the abolition of the BYE.

The management of MB2 preparations appears to me to be the most player oriented and responsive I have ever seen in chess.

Three cheers ...........

:clap:

[I sincerely hope I can get to MB]

Oepty
03-08-2004, 05:14 PM
Look....I'm not sure I agree with this notion of inserting rope-ins just to avoid a bye. From the point of view of contest, there's something unsporting about it. gray, you should not accede so readily to Matt's insistence.
AR
I personally think it is good idea and if the organisers manage to do it effectively it will be excellent.
Scott

PHAT
03-08-2004, 05:16 PM
Look....I'm not sure I agree with this notion of inserting rope-ins just to avoid a bye. From the point of view of contest, there's something unsporting about it.

How is it unsporting?

All one has to do is trust that the house player will be fair dinkum in thier play. This is highly likely since the game will be rated.

arosar
03-08-2004, 05:30 PM
It's unsporting because you have to remind yourself 'to trust' that your opponent will be competitive rather than simply take it for granted.

I understand why you want to avoid byes. But I choose to accept them as a fact of tourney life.

Could you not make it your personal struggle to avoid byes in every tourn you play?

AR

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 05:50 PM
Could you not make it your personal struggle to avoid byes in every tourn you play? bit hard to avoid the bye in the first round if you are the lowest seeded player.

Bill Gletsos
03-08-2004, 06:06 PM
I understand why you want to avoid byes. But I choose to accept them as a fact of tourney life.
I believe virtually all players share your view point.


Could you not make it your personal struggle to avoid byes in every tourn you play?
Do the words snowballs chance in hell have any meaning to you. ;)

Kevin Bonham
03-08-2004, 06:29 PM
We're all just asking a lot of questions, that's all.

Do not fib, it will not serve. You can't go saying that you urge people in Melbourne to not go and then say that you're only asking questions.

What you are doing on this thread is trolling, pure and simple. I submit that the reason you're doing it is that you're annoyed that the event will be held somewhere that doesn't cater to your somewhat limited and urban definition of "fun". I mean, you might have to spend a fortnight up in the fresh mountain air, and you might even have to socialise with chessplayers. Frightening stuff.

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 06:41 PM
I mean, you might have to spend a fortnight up in the fresh mountain air, and you might even have to socialise with chessplayers. Frightening stuff.
i know, must be difficult for some to go from sydney pollution to fresh mountain air :owned:

arosar
03-08-2004, 07:02 PM
i know, must be difficult for some to go from sydney pollution to fresh mountain air :owned:

What are you talkin' about mate? According to some scientific study our pollution actually comes from Mexico. Apparently it's the reason why we have cloudy skies but no rain (the particles are too large or somethin' rather).

AR

Bill Gletsos
03-08-2004, 07:17 PM
What are you talkin' about mate? According to some scientific study our pollution actually comes from Mexico. Apparently it's the reason why we have cloudy skies but no rain (the particles are too large or somethin' rather).
You are basically correct there AR.
I rememeber hearing something in the news about this recently.

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 07:20 PM
You are basically correct there AR.
I rememeber hearing something in the news about this recently.
still doesnt change the fact that you have alot of pollution and the fresh air would do you good.

Bill Gletsos
03-08-2004, 07:21 PM
No, AR, it is nothing like the problem of having an event in Penrith.
There was nothing wrong with the Penrith venue and the event was well run and managed by Brian.

Bill Gletsos
03-08-2004, 07:24 PM
Hey Matt....if you go up on that rock, will you entertain us all as you entertain us here?
Given the "us" implies it contains "you" how could he entertain you if you are not going to Mt. Buller. :hmm:

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 07:24 PM
There was nothing wrong with the Penrith venue and the event was well run and managed by Brian.
i think matt was referring to arosar's comment about buller not being far enough away from melbourne to be seen as a real holiday. he just used penrith as an example of a venue being used that was closer to a main city.

Bill Gletsos
03-08-2004, 07:30 PM
i think matt was referring to arosar's comment about buller not being far enough away from melbourne to be seen as a real holiday. he just used penrith as an example of a venue being used that was closer to a main city.
I knew exactly what Matt meant gg. I remembered him previously making the same complaint when he said:

Penrith was a normal averge event - ie I enjoyed it. However, Penrith is too close the NSW centre of population (sydney) to be made into a holiday, yet too far to be a comfortable drive to/from each day. Geographically, Penrith sux.

Alan Shore
03-08-2004, 08:40 PM
I mean, you might have to spend a fortnight up in the fresh mountain air, and you might even have to socialise with chessplayers. Frightening stuff.

Actually in a way I relish the opportunity to chat with chessplayers, it's an activity that can bring some quite interesting and diverse characters to the fore and catch up with some acquaintances you might not ordinarily see. The other aspect is having a nice holiday somewhere or at least a weekend away. I guess the chess itself is ok too.

(And you can have some actual good conversation rather than BB flamewar) ;)

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 09:49 PM
Actually in a way I relish the opportunity to chat with chessplayers, it's an activity that can bring some quite interesting and diverse characters to the fore and catch up with some acquaintances you might not ordinarily see. The other aspect is having a nice holiday somewhere or at least a weekend away. I guess the chess itself is ok too.

(And you can have some actual good conversation rather than BB flamewar) ;)
does this mean you are thinking of going :uhoh:

Alan Shore
03-08-2004, 09:52 PM
does this mean you are thinking of going :uhoh:

Unfortunately I don't have that kind of cash to splash around :(

Garvinator
03-08-2004, 10:05 PM
Unfortunately I don't have that kind of cash to splash around :(
not even just for the four or so days for the minor, maybe you could play the rapid and blitz on the 1st and 6th january too ;) Remember you dont have to stay at the mercure.

PHAT
04-08-2004, 12:43 AM
There was nothing wrong with the Penrith venue and the event was well run and managed by Brian.
Geographically . We are talking geo-graph-ical-y. Penrith is to far from and too close to Sydney. The event it self was fine.

Now, you shut your hole.

PHAT
04-08-2004, 12:49 AM
Unfortunately I don't have that kind of cash to splash around :(

Just turn up! put it about that you're scint and looking for a floor to doss on.



[Fair dinkum, the youth of today are soooooo frightened of the world.]

Bill Gletsos
04-08-2004, 12:53 AM
Geographically . We are talking geo-graph-ical-y. Penrith is to far from and too close to Sydney. The event it self was fine.
It isnt that far.
Lots of people commute to Sydney ever day from Penrith to work.



Now, you shut your hole.
Why dont you just go back to doing whatever it was you did before ever deciding to play competitive chess.
I bet whatever it was they are sure glad to have seen the back of you.

Alan Shore
04-08-2004, 12:58 AM
Just turn up! put it about that you're scint and looking for a floor to doss on.


[Fair dinkum, the youth of today are soooooo frightened of the world.]

Been there, done that. Played tournaments in Sydney, Newcastle and Adelaide and have been to Canberra, Melbourne and Perth. But there have always been friends of mine there to stay with and do stuff with before.. sounds like there's jacksky happening at Mt Buller. Plus, it's too much chess for me.. I was in Adelaide last December/January during the Aus Champs but didn't want to play the Reserves comp.

Kevin Bonham
04-08-2004, 03:12 AM
Just moved a bunch of stuff to off-topic section. Getting a bit tired of having to do so, so final warning on topicality for this thread - from now on every post I see on this thread that I consider off-topic will be deleted without warning or explanation. If you don't like this or any other moderation issue complain in the NC section - I'll delete any posts about moderation I find in this thread.

If OT flamewars keep disrupting these threads I'll see if Jeo wants to write a "suspend poster from thread" script. :P

Oepty
04-08-2004, 10:39 AM
Garvin. I noticed you said the rapid and lightening are going to be on the 1st and 6th of January. Is that the rapid on the 1st and the lightening on the 6th? Do you know if it is possible to get transport to Mt Buller and back on the day of the rapid and lightening? I would rather not have to pay one or two nights accomadation for a one day tournament if I wanted to play.
Scott