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Basil
09-11-2008, 10:42 PM
Warning!
This is a test!
Answers strictly in white please!
It is my preference that you DO NOT read others' responses until you have
a) decided NOT to post an initial answer, or
b) you have ALREADY posted an initial answer

rn2kb1r/ppqbpppp/5n2/3P4/2B5/1Q6/PP1P1PPP/RNB1K1NR b KQkq - 6 7

White has just played 7.Bc4
White thinks he's defending his extra pawn
Black sees that it's no defence at all because of the loose bishop on c1
Further, because of the threat of the diabolical 8.d6, threatening both the Qc7 and Bxf7+

Black snips the pawn with 7...Nxd5

You have the black pieces. The position (as shown on the diagram) is in play and it's your move.
What do you play? Why?

No engines. No cheating. This is for your benefit. Enjoy.

Miranda
09-11-2008, 10:49 PM
Wait, why are we playing black when black just made a move?

Basil
09-11-2008, 10:52 PM
Wait, why are we playing black when black just made a move?
Miranda, black hasn't just moved. I simply said what black did in the game. I also said you have the black pieces with the diagram position.

eclectic
09-11-2008, 10:56 PM
in other words you are black but don't make that move! ;)

Basil
09-11-2008, 10:57 PM
in other words you are black but don't make that move! ;)
Not so fast! I'm a serial head-messer. I simply provide the shovel. People can dig as deep as they choose ;)

Aaron Guthrie
09-11-2008, 10:59 PM
b5, zing!

Miranda
09-11-2008, 11:23 PM
Miranda, black hasn't just moved. I simply said what black did in the game. I also said you have the black pieces with the diagram position.


Ahh, I get it :wall:

I would play e6... best move I can think of at 12:23am anyway

WhiteElephant
10-11-2008, 12:06 AM
I had a very similar position in an Interschool final many years ago, except that my knight was on f3 and my Bishop was somewhere other than c4. I simply missed Qxc1 followed by Qxh1. My opponent took my Bishop and then let out a huge laugh upon taking my Rook. This was only 3 minutes into the game and all 8 players from both teams were now staring at my game.

Well this was hugely embarrassing but I played on and my opponent just kicked back reading the paper between moves. I somehow managed to stay alive and we were still going after all games had finished. After an endgame swindle I pulled off one of the biggest turnarounds in chess history. Thanks for bringing back that memory, Gunner :)

Oh yes and I agree with Manga (I really did think of the same move...really :) )

EDIT: PS Queen couldn't block on d1 either

Phil Bourke
10-11-2008, 12:51 AM
Too easy :)

What's the answer Gunner :D

In reality, I am still working through the given line to see if Gunner hasn't tried to throw us a red herring :)

Igor_Goldenberg
10-11-2008, 09:23 AM
7...Nxd5 8.Nc3 wins a pawn for white. (8.Nxd5 Qxc1+ 9.Ke2 is not without merits either).
7...b5 wins a piece for black.
The choice is yours!

MichaelBaron
10-11-2008, 09:57 AM
One move is winning here...all the others are losing...;)

Capablanca-Fan
10-11-2008, 10:31 AM
No contest. 7... b5 wins a piece, so is the only good move here.

Phil Bourke
10-11-2008, 10:45 AM
Nxd5 is OK for Black, winning a pawn but, ...b5 wins a piece, so is much better!
Thanks Gunner. BTW, I am interested in knowing what the purpose of the test was.

road runner
10-11-2008, 11:27 AM
It is true that the bishop is pinned to the loose piece on c1, but I think it might be better to attack the pinned piece rather than nab the pawn on d5. ...b5 looks good, and 8.d6 fails to 8...Qxc4 (just making note of that point because it took me a while to see it :doh:

Capablanca-Fan
10-11-2008, 11:51 AM
The move played, 7... Nxd5, not only fails to win a piece, but is self-pinning against Pf7. 8. Nc3 looks very strong, attacking that piece for a third time and removing the theat against the Bc1 since it's now protected.

Aaron Guthrie
10-11-2008, 02:00 PM
My reason is the best. Zing!

Adamski
10-11-2008, 02:04 PM
I would hope that OTB I would see ...b5 winning a piece. A nice point is that it guards the c4 square so White d6 is refuted by capturing on c4!

Looking for the white text option! Help me someone - where is it? then I'll change this note's colour before too many see it!!!:confused:

Ah there it is!

Igor_Goldenberg
10-11-2008, 02:26 PM
Now, Howard, is the time for the main question.
Why?

Basil
10-11-2008, 11:08 PM
Now, Howard, is the time for the main question.
Why?
Yes, the reckoning. Always the reckoning :doh:

When black (Duggan) played Qc7, defending the pawn b7, black also saw that the Qc7 was now attacking the loose bichop c1. Black waited for for white's reply which we now know was Bc4.

Black is aware that he now has two bishops lined up and works very hard to see how win one.

Black sees ...b5 (and therefore wins before the game has properly been engaged) but discounts it because of the threat d6 attacking the queen!!

Black has entirely forgotten that the same pawn also allows the queen to take the Bc4 if it doesn't move - which at the same time defeats the attck on the queen.

Black's elemenary chess blindness error is that he sees all the parts, viz
1) Loose bishop
2) ...b5 deflecting the bishop

except one - and that is the newly moved pb5 serves a second role in releasing the soon-to-be attacked Qc7 should white ignore the threat on the Bc4 and replace with an apparent greater threat on the queen with d6.

The point of this thread was not that the idea was hard to see (it clearly isn't), but rather an illustration of chess blindness in the simplest of tactics.

Adamski
10-11-2008, 11:11 PM
I'm happy. I found the same things as Igor, Michael, Jono, Manga and Boris - all highly rated players!

Phil Bourke
11-11-2008, 01:37 AM
Don't worry Gunner, tales of those sort of chess illusions are more widespread than ones of seeing mate in 8 :)

Capablanca-Fan
11-11-2008, 11:17 AM
When black (Duggan) played Qc7, defending the pawn b7, black also saw that the Qc7 was now attacking the loose bichop c1. Black waited for for white's reply which we now know was Bc4.
Presumably this opening was 1. e4 c6 2. c4 d5 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. exd5 Nf6 5. Qa4+ Bd7 6. Qb3, and now 6... Qc7 is probably not the best move, and White should have replied 7.Nc3. Black could sacrifice the Pb7 with 6... Na6, but more usual is 5... Nbd7.

Garvinator
11-11-2008, 11:35 AM
Presumably this opening was 1. e4 c6 2. c4 d5 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. exd5 Nf6 5. Qa4+ Bd7 6. Qb3, and now 6... Qc7 is probably not the best move, and White should have replied 7.Nc3. Black could sacrifice the Pb7 with 6... Na6, but more usual is 5... Nbd7.
Gunner plays a lot of scandinavian's, so I think 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. c4 is more likely.

Basil
11-11-2008, 11:36 AM
That was the opening. Thanks.

Phil Bourke
11-11-2008, 02:58 PM
That was the opening. Thanks.
Howard, I don't see the transposition from a Scandinavian to this position. Mind sharing?

[Edit]Don't mind, I think I got it..........1 e4 d5 2 ed5 Nf6 3 c4 c6 4 Qb3 cd5 5 cd5 Qc7 6 Bb5+ Bd7 7 Bc4
How did I do.

Capablanca-Fan
11-11-2008, 03:14 PM
Howard, I don't see the transposition from a Scandinavian to this position. Mind sharing?

[Edit]Don't mind, I think I got it..........1 e4 d5 2 ed5 Nf6 3 c4 c6 4 Qb3 cd5 5 cd5 Qc7 6 Bb5+ Bd7 7 Bc4
How did I do.
Doesn't make as much sense though, since there is little point to 4... Qc7 instead of Nxd5. Also, 6.Bb5+ has little point, unlike in the other line where it forces a block of the Q's attack on the Pd5.

Basil
11-11-2008, 07:02 PM
Howard, I don't see the transposition from a Scandinavian to this position. Mind sharing?

[Edit]Don't mind, I think I got it..........1 e4 d5 2 ed5 Nf6 3 c4 c6 4 Qb3 cd5 5 cd5 Qc7 6 Bb5+ Bd7 7 Bc4
How did I do.
I didn't see that Jon's post #22 and my post #24 was zwischenzugged by Garvo's #23. My post #24 intended to confirm that Jono's #22 was correct!

Carry on everybody, you're all doing very well!

Phil Bourke
11-11-2008, 11:24 PM
Doesn't make as much sense though, since there is little point to 4... Qc7 instead of Nxd5. Also, 6.Bb5+ has little point, unlike in the other line where it forces a block of the Q's attack on the Pd5.
It didn't have to make sense, it just had to get there :)