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Basil
27-10-2008, 12:31 AM
Another gem.
Another cock-up.
Another rating point flushed.
r5k1/1p1b1r1q/2p1p3/p2p1p2/P1PP1PpN/BP4Pn/4QPK1/3R3R b - - 2 26
Duggan (black) has this from a Dutch and plays 26.Qxh4, busting white's k-side pawns and winning one to boot. Bravo.

What followed was miserable and shan't be published unless sufficient money is offered. However, this thread concerns itself with how should black proceed (to move) from the position below?:

r5k1/1p1b1r2/2p1p3/p2p1p2/P1PP2pP/BP6/4KP2/3R3R b - - 0 29

ER
27-10-2008, 04:55 AM
That Bishop at d7 must be one of the worst in the history of Chess. However, it can be activated, maybe with giving up the extra Pawn.
From first sight, ... Re8 looks good, followed sooner rather than later with the e - Pawn push!

Garvinator
27-10-2008, 08:16 AM
I think an immediate b5 has to be worth a try.

CameronD
27-10-2008, 09:14 AM
To win in this position, the following applies.

1) Black must keep the rooks on the board
2) to open the board, pawns must be pushed, every pawn exchange though, improves draw chances

With correct play, I think its a draw

Carl Gorka
27-10-2008, 09:29 AM
1..dxc4 2.bxc4 c5 intending to take on a4 with the bishop, creating the chance for passed pawns on both sides of the board.

Desmond
27-10-2008, 10:27 AM
My thought process after a quick look:

What would white do with the move if it were his turn?
- c5 is tempting, trying to close the position further and prevent black from opening a second front there and the potential to create weaknesses. This might give black a target to attack with ...b6 soon though.
- Pushing the h pawn might be good, although it won't queen any time soon, it might be a lot more annoying on h6 where it could be supported by the bishop if necessary.
- Swapping pawns when behind is usually good, maybe cxd5 but this allows the opening of the e-file which black seems to get a rook onto first.

Conclusion, probably nothing that white can do should have black too worried. Black wants to open the queenside, but the immediate ...b5 doesn't look particularly good. Maybe something like Rh7 Kf7 Rah8 to tie white down a bit and then look at opening the queenside.

Kevin Bonham
01-11-2008, 01:07 PM
Genuinely difficult and confusing position. Hardly fair to Gunner to win a pawn with a nice tactic only to then have to confront Dvoretsky-book material.

I'm not sure there's a "right" answer to this one either. All the plans have their advantages and their disadvantages. For instance, fireeater's plan to create passed pawns on both sides of the board has the cost of allowing white to create a passed pawn too, and a fairly annoying looking one (to me at least).

My own predeliction would be to attack immediately, because I know that rook and OCB endings are heavily in favour of the side with the initiative rather than necessarily the side with the material, and if I get stuck in a passive position here I may be a pawn up but I certainly won't win and could lose.

I'd play ...Kh7 ideally followed quickly by ...Rg8 and ...f4. At that point when the position best suited it I'd sacrifice the e-pawn to activate the bishop which will go to f5 and then e4. Quite possibly I will get the pawn back this way anyhow as once the rook clears off my king may be able to mop up the h-pawn, but if not, I'll settle for the initiative as it is often decisive alone.

Basil
01-11-2008, 05:56 PM
I'd play ...Kh7 ideally followed quickly by ...Rg8 ...
In what is good news for me or bad news for Kevin :eek:, that is exactly what black played from the position.

Aaron Guthrie
01-11-2008, 06:18 PM
The dc4 idea looks best to me. Aside from what has already been mentioned, it also opens up lines for blacks bishop. It also tempts white to create a passed pawn with d5, which I think would be harmful only to white (requires opening the e file). ;)

Carl Gorka
03-11-2008, 07:06 PM
I'm not sure there's a "right" answer to this one either. All the plans have their advantages and their disadvantages. For instance, fireeater's plan to create passed pawns on both sides of the board has the cost of allowing white to create a passed pawn too, and a fairly annoying looking one (to me at least).



To create a fairly annoying looking passed d-pawn, White would have to allow Black 2 connected queenside passed pawns. I don't think the passed d-pawn looks that annoying:eek:

One of the main ways to win in endgames is to create hassles for your opponent in more than one place. Thus creating 2 weaknesses for an opponent to defend or 2 distant passed pawns for him to try to stop.

The dxc4 and c5 plan also opens the position for Black's bishop while his a8 rook is ideally (for now) placed behind his passed pawn. Black is in complete control of h7 which renders the white h-pawn relatively harmless. A d-pawn will struggle to make it to d7 unless Black is not careful, and if white should attempt to win this position that he is trying to hold, then he's gonna have to put all his efforts into helping the d-pawn, which may not be the optimum use of his pieces.

I'd play dxc4 with little thought in this position as enough general principles seem to be in my favour and there seems no tactical refutation. The thought of activating my pieces would be high in my mind, and I'd be willing to swap some pawns for this end.

Capablanca-Fan
03-11-2008, 07:48 PM
Perhaps ... dxc4; bxc4 b5. This also makes an outside passer, and clears more lines unless White allows very strong Q-side passers.

Adamski
03-11-2008, 09:05 PM
Jono, is your event over? Did you end up on top?

Capablanca-Fan
03-11-2008, 11:09 PM
Jono, is your event over? Did you end up on top?
Less than half-way through; have another weekend of it.

Adamski
03-11-2008, 11:24 PM
Less than half-way through; have another weekend of it.Ta - saw that now on Garvin's thread. Good luck!

Desmond
04-11-2008, 08:21 AM
Perhaps ... dxc4; bxc4 b5. This also makes an outside passer, and clears more lines unless White allows very strong Q-side passers.Any merit in doubling on the h-file to tie white down a bit and then opening the queenside?

Capablanca-Fan
04-11-2008, 11:37 AM
Any merit in doubling on the h-file to tie white down a bit and then opening the queenside?
A reasonable question. In this case though, I wonder who would actually be more tied down. White could defend with his K, while Black's Rs would be stuck on the h-file.

Compare Lundin vs Botvinnik, Groningen 1946 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032143), where after 17. Rdc1, Botvinnik commented on the error of using up both his Rs to attack a P defended by only one B, allowing Black to build up overwhelming force on the other side.

Carl Gorka
04-11-2008, 05:02 PM
Perhaps ... dxc4; bxc4 b5. This also makes an outside passer, and clears more lines unless White allows very strong Q-side passers.

Yes, I like this plan better, although knowing me, I'd have played ..c5 anyway:doh:

Desmond
05-11-2008, 01:53 PM
A reasonable question. In this case though, I wonder who would actually be more tied down. White could defend with his K, while Black's Rs would be stuck on the h-file.

Compare Lundin vs Botvinnik, Groningen 1946 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032143), where after 17. Rdc1, Botvinnik commented on the error of using up both his Rs to attack a P defended by only one B, allowing Black to build up overwhelming force on the other side.Good point, I hadn't thought of bringing the King over to defend. Black does have some counter ideas, eg ...f4 but Bd6 seems to sink that battleship.

Igor_Goldenberg
06-11-2008, 01:36 PM
Any merit in doubling on the h-file to tie white down a bit and then opening the queenside?
It might be too late to open a queen side by that point. I thought about playing Kh7 to allow f4 to cut the bishop from king-side, then attacking h pawn (after regrouping. But it's too slow.

dxc4 looks good to me. to follow it with c5 (fireeater) or b5(Jono) is a matter of taste and calculation. Generally speaking I would prefer c5 plan. Leaving b7 and c4 pawns gives black an excellent outpost for the bishop - c6. From there bishop defends a4 pawn and support possible pawn advance on kind-side.

To win opposite colour bishop endgame (with or without rooks) you want to have passed pawns on both sides, like in classical endgame Kotov-Botvinnik Moscow 1955 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032378)

Carl Gorka
06-11-2008, 11:06 PM
dxc4 looks good to me. to follow it with c5 (fireeater) or b5(Jono) is a matter of taste and calculation. Generally speaking I would prefer c5 plan. Leaving b7 and c4 pawns gives black an excellent outpost for the bishop - c6. From there bishop defends a4 pawn and support possible pawn advance on kind-side.
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Well, I must be doing something right, because my basic reasoning was exactly the same as Igor's:)

I must admit, I didn't really look too hard, and when I saw the ..b5 plan I thought it looked tighter giving the benefits of the c5 plan but allowing less counterplay. But as you say, it's probably a matter of taste...

Capablanca-Fan
07-11-2008, 12:11 PM
Well, I must be doing something right, because my basic reasoning was exactly the same as Igor's:)

I must admit, I didn't really look too hard, and when I saw the ..b5 plan I thought it looked tighter giving the benefits of the c5 plan but allowing less counterplay. But as you say, it's probably a matter of taste...
Igor makes good points.

ER
09-11-2008, 09:02 PM
Igor makes good points.

well he is not a champ for nothing!
Only don't tell him cauz he ll raise his coaching fees!
CAGLES :)

Igor_Goldenberg
09-11-2008, 09:36 PM
well he is not a champ for nothing!
Only don't tell him cauz he ll raise his coaching fees!
CAGLES :)
Elliot,
If you make a special request, I can raise it for you.:D Otherwise, it'll stay the same.