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Charles
01-10-2008, 10:38 PM
Hi all,

Entries have begun for the 2009 Doeberl Cup at www.doeberlcup.com.au. With Easter in Mid April it has aligned the tournament with a more traditional time of the year. Additionally we have worked with the SIO to introduce a rest day between the tournaments. We have a number of focus points for next year. They are:


Get a vibrant 50+ tournament operating – we need a minimum of 14 players and we have set an entry fee of $80 for this tournament.
Introducing a Chess960 tournament for the tournament
GM Ian Rogers commentary with videos will be produced again (videos from last year are available at the site).
Introduction of a $1000 Chess fighting fund for Round 9 of the Premier event.
Same great venue (which has included a Chinese Restaurant now) and hotel deals being fixed at the moment.



We will be producing 5 newsletters and you can subscribe to these on the front page of the Website. Good luck to all playing in tournaments in the coming months and hope to see some of you at the Doeberl Cup.

Charles
05-11-2008, 07:06 AM
Hi all,

Just a reminder that the rate for the rooms that we have arranged for the Quality Inn are only locked in until the 1st of December. We are likely to be able to negotiate a further period beyond this but the current rate is guaranteed until then. This hotel is about 150 metres from the venue.

All details for how to book are at http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/accommodation.shtml

bergil
05-11-2008, 07:55 AM
[Moderator Note: The short draw rule discussed in this post and several others in the first 50 posts on this thread no longer applies, having been removed by the organisers. See post 51 for more details - mod, added 10 Jan 2009]

I think alot of people agree that short draws are not desirable but surely everyone is to play by the same rules. Your policy on short draws seems to say otherwise could you please explain how this is fair? And if it conflicts with tournament rule 2? "The Premier tournament will be ACF and FIDE rated, and will be constituted as a FIDE Title Tournament."


Policy on Short Draws

For games on any of the top 10 boards in the Premier Tournament, agreed draws in under 30 moves are banned. This includes tacit advance agreements to draw (ie deliberate repetitions) and pre-arranged draw agreements. The aim of this rule is to encourage a competitive, fighting tournament, and we trust all players will adhere to this in a sportsmanlike manner. Genuine draws by repetition are allowed.

Could you also announce whom is to decide what is a genuine draw?


Regards
Shane Burgess

MichaelBaron
05-11-2008, 08:24 AM
Could you also announce whom is to decide what is a genuine draw?


Regards
Shane Burgess
:clap:

As well as explain what method will be used to dig into the players' brains to find out if the draw is genuine or not

Charles
05-11-2008, 08:28 AM
I think alot of people agree that short draws are not desirable but surely everyone is to play by the same rules. Your policy on short draws seems to say otherwise could you please explain how this is fair? And if it conflicts with tournament rule 2? "The Premier tournament will be ACF and FIDE rated, and will be constituted as a FIDE Title Tournament."



Could you also announce whom is to decide what is a genuine draw?


Regards
Shane Burgess


Hi Shane,

Last year the short draw rule applied to all players in the Premier. We were relatively happy with the outcome which saw most players abide by the rule. There were a couple of notable exceptions. As part of our end of tournament survey, we received feedback from players that they felt the short draw rule was most applicable to players who received conditions for the tournament. This year we have sought to refine the rule to apply predominately to players who we provide conditions to attend. These players are usually playing on the top boards so we chose board 10 as a cutoff.

With regards to conflict with Rule 2 I will have to followup on that although the fact it applied to all boards last year didnt cause any issues in a technical rule sense that I am aware of.

With regards to accepting a draw ultimately it will be up to the Director of Play to decide on a draw claim from the players.

I believe that to grow chess we need to have good chess at each round and especially in the last round. Sponsors need to see a good contest and I think last year we saw the proof of that. The Doeberl had the rule in place and we saw a good contest on the top four boards in the last round. The short draw rule was removed by Brian for the SIO after some controversy we had and both top boards finished with quick short draws in the last round.

Garvinator
05-11-2008, 08:36 AM
Hi Shane,

Last year the short draw rule applied to all players in the Premier. We were relatively happy with the outcome which saw most players abide by the rule. There were a couple of notable exceptions. As part of our end of tournament survey, we received feedback from players that they felt the short draw rule was most applicable to players who received conditions for the tournament. This year we have sought to refine the rule to apply predominately to players who we provide conditions to attend. These players are usually playing on the top boards so we chose board 10 as a cutoff.

With regards to conflict with Rule 2 I will have to followup on that although the fact it applied to all boards last year didnt cause any issues in a technical rule sense that I am aware of.

With regards to accepting a draw ultimately it will be up to the Director of Play to decide on a draw claim from the players.

I believe that to grow chess we need to have good chess at each round and especially in the last round. Sponsors need to see a good contest and I think last year we saw the proof of that. The Doeberl had the rule in place and we saw a good contest on the top four boards in the last round. The short draw rule was removed by Brian for the SIO after some controversy we had and both top boards finished with quick short draws in the last round.
Hello Charles B,

I think one of the main issues with the rule above is that you have players in the same division playing under two different rules. Those on boards one to ten have the short draw policy enforced, those for board eleven and below do not.

It is not inconceivable that there could be players in the final round on the same score, some who are on boards 8,9 and 10 and others on 11 and below. They could even be in the running for a rating group or outright prizemoney (depending on results of course).

So the rule is applied to those on 8,9 and 10, but not to those on >11. This seems really unfair.

If a short draw policy has to be in place, it should be for the whole division, not just for a certain number of boards IN ONE DIVISION.

I would be really surprised if the fide rules committee endorsed a policy of different rules being used on different boards in the one division (but it is fide so anything is possible).

If asked, I would advise that if the organisers want a short draw rule, it should be for the whole division. It is a headache you do not need to have.

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2008, 10:56 AM
With regards to accepting a draw ultimately it will be up to the Director of Play to decide on a draw claim from the players.
With assistance from retired GM consultant like Ian "drawing master" Rogers (http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=188695&postcount=15) or even Shaun "king of draws" Press (http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=188722&postcount=403) who hypocritically demand more play than they were often prepared to make themselves, made even in Olympiads.

As I said:


I don't begrudge Messrs. Rogers and Press from taking these draws, since they and their opponents, not third parties, were in the best position to judge whether these were optimal results. But it is galling to see them pontificating from a position of assumed moral superiority over players like Antić.


I believe that to grow chess we need to have good chess at each round and especially in the last round. Sponsors need to see a good contest and I think last year we saw the proof of that. The Doeberl had the rule in place and we saw a good contest on the top four boards in the last round. The short draw rule was removed by Brian for the SIO after some controversy we had and both top boards finished with quick short draws in the last round.
What piffle, seeing outsiders think they know better than the players themselves what is good for chess. And this one looks like different rules for different games (as GGray points out), which violates fundamental chess principles.

It was also totally improper for an arbiter to forbid a GM from making a perfectly good legal move.

Charles
05-11-2008, 11:57 AM
Hello Charles B,

I think one of the main issues with the rule above is that you have players in the same division playing under two different rules. Those on boards one to ten have the short draw policy enforced, those for board eleven and below do not.

It is not inconceivable that there could be players in the final round on the same score, some who are on boards 8,9 and 10 and others on 11 and below. They could even be in the running for a rating group or outright prizemoney (depending on results of course).

So the rule is applied to those on 8,9 and 10, but not to those on >11. This seems really unfair.

If a short draw policy has to be in place, it should be for the whole division, not just for a certain number of boards IN ONE DIVISION.

I would be really surprised if the fide rules committee endorsed a policy of different rules being used on different boards in the one division (but it is fide so anything is possible).

If asked, I would advise that if the organisers want a short draw rule, it should be for the whole division. It is a headache you do not need to have.

Garvin,

Actually not organising this and other chess tournaments would be the easiest way to reduce the headache :D . I will again look into this as we had discussions on this and we are not the first tournament to use this kind of setup but I will have it reviewed.

Regarding Jono's post re Dejan Antic, Dejan took conditions from us and knew the rule was in place months in advance of the tournament and he chose to ignore it - twice. I believe that players should play by the published rules in a tournament they enter. What is interesting is that rarely is there a discussion on the onus of responsibility on players to sponsors and organisers - it is always about the rights of players. Without all three you dont have a tournament.

I dont know the history but if Ian and Shaun took short draws in tournaments when there were rules stating short draws were not allowed they are hypocritical. If there was not a short draw rule in the tournaments being discussed they are not hypocritical. Either way if they have a role in a tournament they have a responsibility to enforce a short draw rule where the rule exists.

As for the outsider comment from Jono I realise my rating is low and that higher rated chess players may view me as inferior because of that. However as a chess player, I play the best chess I can and keep trying to improve.

The significant use I find in Chesschat is there are people out there who constructively provide advice such as you have done. This helps us review ideas to create a better tournament for all that attend.

For all the discussion on short draws it only affects a miniscule amount of players so I also welcome feedback on issues such as how to get a seniors tournament up and running which I started another thread on and have had some good feedback on what will help.

Phil Bourke
05-11-2008, 12:47 PM
A very difficult issue these short draws are! My only contention would be that organisers need to approach the issue more from a 'How to encourage the players to play' than from a 'How to force the players to play' perspective. Any rule that appears to be forcing is going to be met with resistance, no one likes being told what to do, even more so when they can point out inconsistencies that may result in unequal playing conditions.

I sympathise with Charles and his fellow organisers as they struggle to find a solution that will work and be agreeable to all involved. I think they have a snowball's chance in hell of doing so :)

Charles
05-11-2008, 03:47 PM
Hi all,

The next Doeberl newsletter is out today or tomorrow. Anyone who would like to subscribe can signup on the Doeberl Cup home page (bottom right).

Also the lightning video from last years tournament is now up at http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/video.shtml

Igor_Goldenberg
05-11-2008, 04:26 PM
Few suggestions for the tournament:

1. Short draw rules - to avoid possible conflicts and clashes with law of chess on one side, and to make grandmasters work for the appearance money on the other, organiser can enter into an agreement with them that assistance (or part of it) will be paid after the tournament is finished if the contract (which might include short draw) clause is fulfilled.
This way a grandmaster can still make a short draw if he wants to, but should be ready to forego appearance payment from organiser.
IMHO, it will help to avoid ugly scenes like the one from this year last round and enforce "no short draw" rules.

2. This year top four boards played on the stage with no access for us mere mortals. One of the attraction of Doeberl (and SIO) is seeing top players in action. Commentary by I.Rogers are not available to those still playing their games.
Suggestion:
Either have top boards playing in the hall (there was plenty of space this year) or limit, but not totally restrict access to the stage. This way it won't be overcrowded but everyone will have an opportunity to see GMs games.

3. Many are travelling from Canberra to Sydney between tournaments. Hiring a minibus is not very expensive (and it can be dropped off in Parramatta), organisers can sell seats on the bus for a small fee to recoup the hire cost. It will still be cheaper (and much more convenient!) then bus or train fare.

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2008, 04:35 PM
I dont know the history but if Ian and Shaun took short draws in tournaments when there were rules stating short draws were not allowed they are hypocritical. If there was not a short draw rule in the tournaments being discussed they are not hypocritical. Either way if they have a role in a tournament they have a responsibility to enforce a short draw rule where the rule exists.
Oh no, you can't weasel out like that. The whole rationale was that short draws were intrinsically wrong, yet you have two short-draw takers (and one short draw king) deciding matters.

Igor's suggestion is much better for the reasons he gives: make appearance fees or other financial assistance (not prize money) conditional upon avoiding short draws.


As for the outsider comment from Jono I realise my rating is low and that higher rated chess players may view me as inferior because of that.
You're hardly the first duffer to try to achieve what he can never do over the board: lord it over much stronger chess players. And it's appalling that any tournament rules can give an arbiter power to prohibit a legal move.


However as a chess player, I play the best chess I can and keep trying to improve.
Good for you. Maybe instead of telling vastly superior players what moves they may or may not play, try learning from the moves they would play if allowed.

ER
05-11-2008, 04:40 PM
3. Many are travelling from Canberra to Sydney between tournaments. Hiring a minibus is not very expensive (and it can be dropped off in Parramatta), organisers can sell seats on the bus for a small fee to recoup the hire cost. It will still be cheaper (and much more convenient!) then bus or train fare.

What a fantastic idea!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Excellent thinking Igor, on behalf of all chessplayers who belong in the above mentioned group, I salute you! :)
GAGLES

Charles
05-11-2008, 04:58 PM
Few suggestions for the tournament:

1. Short draw rules - to avoid possible conflicts and clashes with law of chess on one side, and to make grandmasters work for the appearance money on the other, organiser can enter into an agreement with them that assistance (or part of it) will be paid after the tournament is finished if the contract (which might include short draw) clause is fulfilled.
This way a grandmaster can still make a short draw if he wants to, but should be ready to forego appearance payment from organiser.
IMHO, it will help to avoid ugly scenes like the one from this year last round and enforce "no short draw" rules.

2. This year top four boards played on the stage with no access for us mere mortals. One of the attraction of Doeberl (and SIO) is seeing top players in action. Commentary by I.Rogers are not available to those still playing their games.
Suggestion:
Either have top boards playing in the hall (there was plenty of space this year) or limit, but not totally restrict access to the stage. This way it won't be overcrowded but everyone will have an opportunity to see GMs games.

3. Many are travelling from Canberra to Sydney between tournaments. Hiring a minibus is not very expensive (and it can be dropped off in Parramatta), organisers can sell seats on the bus for a small fee to recoup the hire cost. It will still be cheaper (and much more convenient!) then bus or train fare.

Igor,

Thanks for the excellent suggestions and well done on the weekend. :clap: Short draws we will continue to look at ideas and I like yours.

I think you have something on the partial access to the stage. We were restricted by IT setup this year as we were still getting the boards working the night before and had some architectural limitations but I think our IT staff can do something there this year.

Re the mini bus, I will check out costs and with a Tuesday rest day this year between the tournaments we may also have the option of being able to leave on Tuesday morning to be in Sydney by lunchtime. This would also avoid the traffic snarls into Sydney on Easter monday evening which held some players up for substantial times this year.

All your ideas have been added to the post event debrief we did about two weeks after last years event.

Kevin Bonham
05-11-2008, 08:43 PM
I made some comments on the short draw conditions about a month ago on the short draws thread (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=210989#post210989). I put it over there rather than here thinking that the organisers would probably prefer not to have discussion of their event dominated by discussion of the short draw clause yet again, but it looks like while the short draw clause persists exactly that will happen (at least until a more satisfactory wording is found.)

In summary, I suggested that the reference to "tacit advance agreements" is hopelessly vague and that "deliberate repetitions" could be usefully replaced by "easily avoidable repetitions". However I commended the organisers on the "fighting chess fund" which is along the lines of what Phil Bourke is in my view quite correctly arguing - more carrot and less stick.

Phil Bourke
06-11-2008, 12:32 AM
You're hardly the first duffer to try to achieve what he can never do over the board: lord it over much stronger chess players. And it's appalling that any tournament rules can give an arbiter power to prohibit a legal move.


Good for you. Maybe instead of telling vastly superior players what moves they may or may not play, try learning from the moves they would play if allowed.
I think the tone of your comments have gone a little too far towards playing the man and not the ball here. Or do you truly believe that a good chess game is obligatory for all the people who take up the challenge of working behind the scenes to allow good chess players the opportunity of playing in recognised and worthwhile events. If left to chess players to organise themselves, I could see the Doeberl and similar events being decided down at the public park on a weekend with entry fees $1 per side per game. It is only because people like Charles who decide because of their love of the game, rather than their ability to play it, to actually try and do more and promote the game that chess will ever rise above its present poor position in the Australian culture. If anything we need more CB's and less pompous players who consider they are what the game is all about.

MichaelBaron
06-11-2008, 12:40 AM
Nobody has attempted to answer my question "How can the arbiter know for sure, whether triple repetition is genuine or not?" Is he going to scan the players brains?:hmm:

Basil
06-11-2008, 12:47 AM
Oh no, you can't weasel out like that. The whole rationale was that short draws were intrinsically wrong, yet you have two short-draw takers (and one short draw king) deciding matters.
I'd agree with Phil regarding playing the ball and man. I think you have over-stepped a bit Jon.

Further, I'm not sure as to whether the 'rationale was that short draws were intrinsically wrong' is sufficiently accurate. The rationales atributed would vary among individuals. Mine, for example, is that short draws are bad for the game - not wrong (as discussed as nauseam elsewhere).

Finally, it's my understanding that you're factually correct regarding the draw-takers as to their practice. I'm not sure if that prevents their arbiting; in that many people are more than capable of administering rules that they neither agree with, nor practice themselves.

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2008, 12:57 AM
Nobody has attempted to answer my question "How can the arbiter know for sure, whether triple repetition is genuine or not?"
Of course not.


Is he going to scan the players brains?:hmm:
Why should they when they have the chance to lord it over players they wouldn't stand a chance against over the board.

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2008, 01:03 AM
I think the tone of your comments have gone a little too far towards playing the man and not the ball here. Or do you truly believe that a good chess game is obligatory for all the people who take up the challenge of working behind the scenes to allow good chess players the opportunity of playing in recognised and worthwhile events.
I believe that duffers should not be allowed to tell far superior players that they can't play a legal move. Last year's heavy-handed action created huge ill feeling among many players.


If left to chess players to organise themselves, I could see the Doeberl and similar events being decided down at the public park on a weekend with entry fees $1 per side per game.
As has been pointed out, they could make appearance fees conditional on refusing short draws. Then there would be no bad feelings, no silly and badly worded rules, and no duffers telling GMs what to play or what not to play. It's those players worthy of an appearance fee that would be shortchanging the sponsors by playing quick draws; lesser players can draw and no one minds and they are not being paid anyway. Some of your ideas on the other thread haven't been bad either, since they offer some rewards rather than only punishments.


It is only because people like Charles who decide because of their love of the game, rather than their ability to play it, to actually try and do more and promote the game that chess will ever rise above its present poor position in the Australian culture.
It's a pretty poor position if top players are reduced to being lackeys of duffers, who apparently care not about the bad feelings these rules create among many players. Sure, if they are paying appearance fees, then they have the right to set conditions. But not on mere mortals who are paying their own way.


If anything we need more CB's and less pompous players who consider they are what the game is all about.
Tournaments have been organized for 150 years without these crass drawophobic rules, as real players know. We also know that FIDE has tried before to ban short draws, and it's been a farce.

Basil
06-11-2008, 01:36 AM
I believe that duffers should not be allowed to tell far superior players that they can't play a legal move.
Why not? I think when you reason through your argument (as long as you don't do a Barry) you'll find that their duffer status is not germane to your position, but incidental.

Ivanchuk_Fan
06-11-2008, 07:32 AM
I have my own suggestion to the so-called 'problem' of short draws: Fine only the player who 'forces' the repetition. I shall give a couple of examples to illustrate my idea.

Example 1: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dc4 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 Nc6 7.Nf3 Bg4 8.Ng5 Bd1 9.Bf7 Kd7 10.Be6, draw agreed.

In this case, White should be fined under the above rule, since after 7.Nf3 Black is forced to play 7...Bg4, and after 8.Ng5 (not forced) Black cannot avoid the repetition.

Example 2: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.c5 Nbd7 6.Bf4 Nh5 7.Bd2 Nhf6 8.Bf4 Nh5 9.Bd2 Nhf6 10.Bf4 Nh5, draw agreed.

In this case, White should be fined, since Black's alternatives to 7...Nhf6 and 6...Nh5 leave him with a worse position, but White has alternatives to 8.Bf4, and these usually offer White a tiny edge. Some of White's alternatives to 7.Bd2 also give him good chances of an advantage.

In regards to the extent of the fine, I leave this to others to determine.

Miranda
06-11-2008, 07:41 AM
I have my own suggestion to the so-called 'problem' of short draws: Fine only the player who 'forces' the repetition. I shall give a couple of examples to illustrate my idea.

Example 1: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dc4 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 Nc6 7.Nf3 Bg4 8.Ng5 Bd1 9.Bf7 Kd7 10.Be6, draw agreed.

In this case, White should be fined under the above rule, since after 7.Nf3 Black is forced to play 7...Bg4, and after 8.Ng5 (not forced) Black cannot avoid the repetition.

Example 2: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.c5 Nbd7 6.Bf4 Nh5 7.Bd2 Nhf6 8.Bf4 Nh5 9.Bd2 Nhf6 10.Bf4 Nh5, draw agreed.

In this case, White should be fined, since Black's alternatives to 7...Nhf6 and 6...Nh5 leave him with a worse position, but White has alternatives to 8.Bf4, and these usually offer White a tiny edge. Some of White's alternatives to 7.Bd2 also give him good chances of an advantage.

In regards to the extent of the fine, I leave this to others to determine.

Hm.. it's a good idea, but would still be a bit hard to determine in drawn positions.

Perhaps just don't have a short draw rule - just makes things easier!

Garrett
06-11-2008, 07:59 AM
If draws really are such a problem I like the carrot approach and am interested to see how the fighting fund works.

Something like $500 bonus for the winner on the highest board in the last round, $300 bonus for the winner on the second highest board etc.

Would cater for fighting chess in the last round, plus also might encourage combative play in earlier rounds to try to get a seat at one of the top boards in the final round.

best of luck everyone.
Cheers
Garrett.

Miranda
06-11-2008, 08:20 AM
If draws really are such a problem I like the carrot approach and am interested to see how the fighting fund works.

Something like $500 bonus for the winner on the highest board in the last round, $300 bonus for the winner on the second highest board etc.

Would cater for fighting chess in the last round, plus also might encourage combative play in earlier rounds to try to get a seat at one of the top boards in the final round.

best of luck everyone.
Cheers
Garrett.

That's a good idea!
Except what about people with the same points, who just get placed on board 1 out of luck?

Anyway, I think that the top players won't have too many short draws anyway - I mean, they all want to win! (don't they?)

Brian_Jones
06-11-2008, 08:32 AM
Perhaps just don't have a short draw rule - just makes things easier!

Sometimes the best advice comes from the most unusual source! :)

I agree - we shouldn't mess with the rules (policed by the arbiters).

But organisers can mess with the prizemoney.

Igor_Goldenberg
06-11-2008, 08:55 AM
I believe that duffers should not be allowed to tell far superior players that they can't play a legal move. Last year's heavy-handed action created huge ill feeling among many players.

Indeed. But then your rage should be directed against Shaun Press, not Charles Bishop.

Charles
06-11-2008, 10:19 AM
I made some comments on the short draw conditions about a month ago on the short draws thread (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=210989#post210989). I put it over there rather than here thinking that the organisers would probably prefer not to have discussion of their event dominated by discussion of the short draw clause yet again, but it looks like while the short draw clause persists exactly that will happen (at least until a more satisfactory wording is found.)


Hi all,

I would request that further comments on the short draw rule be moved to the forum that Kevin has opened. I opened this thread to provide potential players with information on the Doeberl Cup for 2009. I respect that others have opinions on the issue of short draws and these have been stated here. Further discussion on this here does not assist us in providing people who wish to play the tournament with information. For the Olympiad another variant of the short draw rule has been implemented so we shall see how that pans out.

All of the rules are clearly on the website and players have every right not to play in the tournament if they dont like a certain aspect of the tournament including the rules. We are striving to achieve something good for Australian Chess and will continue to do so.

We have a number of GM's and overseas players already signed up under the current conditions so I would like to get back to providing the best chess tournament we can for Australian Players.

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2008, 11:07 AM
Indeed. But then your rage should be directed against Shaun Press, not Charles Bishop.
Why either-or rather than both-and? Press did his dirty deed under the auspices of Bishop.

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2008, 11:10 AM
Anyway, I think that the top players won't have too many short draws anyway ó I mean, they all want to win! (don't they?)
Of course. It's not possible to be in contention for prize money without lots of wins. Yet one GM who had clearly displayed fighting chess throught the tournament was ordered by one duffer (on the advice of a notorious short-draw king no less) not to play a legal move since it would repeat the position a second time and draw.

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2008, 11:11 AM
But organisers can mess with the prizemoney.
Would be better if they messed with appearance money. Those who are paid to play have some obligations, not those paying their own way.

Brian_Jones
06-11-2008, 12:41 PM
Would be better if they messed with appearance money. Those who are paid to play have some obligations, not those paying their own way.

What is appearance money? :)

You are a bit out-of-date mate! :)

Most IMs and GMs just get free entry!

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2008, 01:09 PM
What is appearance money? :)

You are a bit out-of-date mate! :)
Why? Even I have received some in the last two years. And as a result, I fought hard in all games in the tourneys.


Most IMs and GMs just get free entry!
Are none given appearance money or airfare assistance?

Igor_Goldenberg
06-11-2008, 01:09 PM
Why either-or rather than both-and? Press did his dirty deed under the auspices of Bishop.
I agree that Press was totally wrong on the issue. My understanding is that Charles realised it and is trying to find a better solution. After all he was humble enough not to rule himself whether repetition is genuine or not.
Anyway, I agree it's better discussed under "short draws" thread.

Brian_Jones
06-11-2008, 03:38 PM
Why? Even I have received some in the last two years. And as a result, I fought hard in all games in the tourneys

They must have had money to burn! :)



Are none given appearance money or airfare assistance?

Only the top GMs are given money (on completion of the event - to use how they chose). Some GMs and strong IMs are assisted with accommodation.

FMs who earned their titles through zonals get free beer! :)

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2008, 04:12 PM
I agree that Press was totally wrong on the issue. My understanding is that Charles realised it and is trying to find a better solution. After all he was humble enough not to rule himself whether repetition is genuine or not.
Anyway, I agree it's better discussed under "short draws" thread.
Your ideas are very sensible and I hope Charles adopts them, rather than digging his heels in.

MichaelBaron
06-11-2008, 05:25 PM
FMs who earned their titles through zonals get free beer! :)

They also get laughed at and pointed finger at whenever they sit at chess board and play chess of their usual quality :doh: Gives real FMs a chance for a good laugh :D

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2008, 05:28 PM
They also get laughed at and pointed finger at whenever they sit at chess board and play chess of their usual quality :doh: Gives real FMs a chance for a good laugh :D
:clap: :lol: :lol: :owned: :D

flukey
06-11-2008, 06:13 PM
FMs who earned their titles through zonals get free beer! :)

Wow, as a ZFM I get free beer!!!! Off to Sydney I go next year, with the aim of drinking Brian dry!

flukey
06-11-2008, 06:15 PM
Oh, and what with drinking all Brian's free beer I might need to take a few short draws to recover my poise!

Phil Bourke
06-11-2008, 09:44 PM
Oh, and what with drinking all Brian's free beer I might need to take a few short draws to recover my poise!
Simply Brilliant !! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Brian_Jones
07-11-2008, 07:47 AM
Wow, as a ZFM I get free beer!!!! Off to Sydney I go next year, with the aim of drinking Brian dry!

Free beer was on offer to eveybody at the 2008 Sydney International - but only during the launch of David Lovejoy's new book "Moral Victories".

You must have missed out! :)

Now don't forget to enter the 2009 Doeberl Cup soon (before it fills up!)

flukey
07-11-2008, 10:56 AM
Actually I once took on a "drink and play" challenge. At a South Island tourney around 1993 we were all at the pub over the road from the venue having lunch. Hamish Gold (around 1600 strength) was my next opponent and he said that he would buy as me as much snakebite (a nasty combo of lager and cider) as I could drink during the lunchhour. I was egged on and agreed. 7 pints of snakebit later I was a little worse for wear. I had to be helped across the road. At the board I could hardly focus so I adopted the approach of playing extremely slowly (10 moves in 90 minutes) in order to sober up. A couple of players at the other end of the hall complained about the stench of alcohol. After 40 or so moves of zero progress and with a draw inevitable, Hamish swapped into a pawn ending in the only way the guaranteed the loss.

This all goes to show how soft I was - in UK London League matches, some teams (the "drunken knights" was one) just played their first move, then all adjourned to the bar until they had 5 minutes left, then returned upstairs and played the time scramble!!!

Charles
16-11-2008, 05:59 PM
Hi all,

The T Shirt slogan competition is now open. Details are on the front page of the Doeberl Cup website.

bergil
16-11-2008, 08:34 PM
Hi all,

The T Shirt slogan competition is now open. Details are on the front page of the Doeberl Cup website.Here's a few
1, Find a mate for life. Or
2. You'd have to be forked to miss it

Charles
29-11-2008, 07:27 AM
We have finalised the opening and closing videos for last year and these have been included on the website under the video area.

Garrett
08-12-2008, 08:37 AM
how strict is the entry requirement for the Open ?

I am ACF 1773 and considering the option of playing, would I get in ?

cheers
Garrett.

Charles
08-12-2008, 09:08 AM
how strict is the entry requirement for the Open ?

I am ACF 1773 and considering the option of playing, would I get in ?

cheers
Garrett.


Garrett,

Sorry to say that the only exceptions we make are for overseas players who dont have a FIDE rating. In these circumstances, we consider whether their country rating is likely to be equivalent of the cutoff.

Ian Rout
08-12-2008, 10:41 AM
Garrett,

Sorry to say that the only exceptions we make are for overseas players who dont have a FIDE rating. In these circumstances, we consider whether their country rating is likely to be equivalent of the cutoff.
It occurred to me there is a bit of a loophole (for want of a better word). Do the rating cutoffs apply as at the time of the event, meaning on the March ACF or April FIDE list, or at the time an entry is registered?

If the first, can somebody in Garrett's position register provisionally in the expectation/hope of meeting the cutoff on the next list, to avoid the field having filled up by the time they know for sure?

(No I'm not asking because I'm 1799 and yes I could just ask Charles next time I see him, but I thought others might be interested.)

Charles
08-12-2008, 02:46 PM
It occurred to me there is a bit of a loophole (for want of a better word). Do the rating cutoffs apply as at the time of the event, meaning on the March ACF or April FIDE list, or at the time an entry is registered?

If the first, can somebody in Garrett's position register provisionally in the expectation/hope of meeting the cutoff on the next list, to avoid the field having filled up by the time they know for sure?

(No I'm not asking because I'm 1799 and yes I could just ask Charles next time I see him, but I thought others might be interested.)

Hi Ian,

Good question. Last year we had a player register and pay based on the fact that the next rating list would take them into contention for the Premier tournament (he was listed on the wait list until this happened). This guaranteed him a spot based on him meeting the requirements of the tournament. If he hadnt made the rating jump he needed he would have played in the Major.

I think it is reasonable that if someone meets the rating requirement between opening of registration and the event start, registers and pays based on this, and then falls below the rating critierias prior to the tournament we would still let them play in the tournament they had paid for.

And in Ian's case, his FIDE rating makes him eligible to play in the Premier if he wishes to.

Charles
08-12-2008, 03:20 PM
Hi all,

Shaun has returned from Dresden and, as I committed to previously, he and I have discussed the short draw rule that was implemented by FIDE there. Neither of us feel that what occurred at Dresden will resolve, in the short term, issues raised around attempts at implementing this rule. Therefore we have decided to go with a full carrot approach for 2009. The website will be updated shortly to reflect this new ruling.

As organisers we remain committed to seeking ways to have players play out competative last rounds so we can build a good product for sponsors which will mean more money for prizemoney.

If people need to, please discuss the relative merits of this idea on the short draw thread.

Ian Rout
08-12-2008, 04:51 PM
Hi Ian,

Good question. Last year we had a player register and pay based on the fact that the next rating list would take them into contention for the Premier tournament (he was listed on the wait list until this happened). This guaranteed him a spot based on him meeting the requirements of the tournament. If he hadnt made the rating jump he needed he would have played in the Major.

I think it is reasonable that if someone meets the rating requirement between opening of registration and the event start, registers and pays based on this, and then falls below the rating critierias prior to the tournament we would still let them play in the tournament they had paid for.

And in Ian's case, his FIDE rating makes him eligible to play in the Premier if he wishes to.Thanks Charles. Another reason to enter early, before your rating goes down.

ER
02-01-2009, 03:00 AM
I have already organised everything! Paid entry fee, booked hotel (Quality Hotel, a stone's throw from the venue - first time there any feedback from chessplayers who have stayed there before?) etc.
Ceteris paribus, I shall see you all in Canberra!
CAGLES

Garrett
02-01-2009, 05:34 AM
you playing in Sydney straight after JAK ?

I didn't meet the entry requirements for Doeberl so my chess mate and I are off to the SIO instead.

If not then maybe we can meet up at Ellwood-Bedigo.

Cheers !
Garrett

ER
02-01-2009, 05:38 AM
Hi Garrett
Unfortunately, due to work rostering I have to be back in Melbourne to resume duties right after Doeberl finishes!
Chances are that we meet in November and I really look forward to it!
BTW a very happy and prosperous New Year to you and family!
CAGLES!

William AS
02-01-2009, 07:16 PM
I have already organised everything! Paid entry fee, booked hotel (Quality Hotel, a stone's throw from the venue - first time there any feedback from chessplayers who have stayed there before?) etc.
Ceteris paribus, I shall see you all in Canberra!
CAGLES
You are fast off the mark. :clap: Hotel very good, great rooms, very friendly staff. Hope to see you there, if I can get my act together and book! :D

ER
02-01-2009, 11:40 PM
You are fast off the mark. :clap: Hotel very good, great rooms, very friendly staff. Hope to see you there, if I can get my act together and book! :D

I 'll be there mate for sure! Give us an "oi" once there so we can catch up for a drink or three! :) I am sure Matt will be there and he 'll take care of organising a Forum(s) members gathering so we can get together and share a laugh!
CAGLES

Garrett
06-01-2009, 07:06 AM
I was surprised when I saw on the website that Tony Dowden entered the major, having some sort of title and over 2150 FIDE.

I wondered why, then looked at the prizes. $1500-00 for an U/2000 tournament is quite generous, well done to the organisers :clap:

Good luck Tony !

Cheers
Garrett.

Tony Dowden
07-01-2009, 07:43 AM
It occurred to me there is a bit of a loophole (for want of a better word). Do the rating cutoffs apply as at the time of the event, meaning on the March ACF or April FIDE list, or at the time an entry is registered?

If the first, can somebody in Garrett's position register provisionally in the expectation/hope of meeting the cutoff on the next list, to avoid the field having filled up by the time they know for sure?

(No I'm not asking because I'm 1799 and yes I could just ask Charles next time I see him, but I thought others might be interested.)

Why aren't all the rules for entry in the 'Rules' section of the webpage? :confused:

I was unsure which section I should enter but then I noticed that the Major was the only event in which I could win (U2000) Grand Prix points :hmm:

Tony Dowden
07-01-2009, 07:49 AM
I was surprised when I saw on the website that Tony Dowden entered the major, having some sort of title and over 2150 FIDE.

I wondered why, then looked at the prizes. $1500-00 for an U/2000 tournament is quite generous, well done to the organisers :clap:

Good luck Tony !

Cheers
Garrett.

Thanks Garrett :) I've only registered at this stage though ...

Garrett
07-01-2009, 07:52 AM
Why aren't all the rules for entry in the 'Rules' section of the webpage? :confused:

I was unsure which section I should enter but then I noticed that the Major was the only event in which I could win (U2000) Grand Prix points :hmm:

good point, can a talented junior (or woman) who's rating happens to be below the cut-off for the premier gain grandprix points for this tourney ?

*edit* - why exactly is there a cut-off anyway. I just had a quick look through the thread but couldn't see it.

cheers
Garrett.

Charles
07-01-2009, 08:15 AM
Why aren't all the rules for entry in the 'Rules' section of the webpage? :confused:

I was unsure which section I should enter but then I noticed that the Major was the only event in which I could win (U2000) Grand Prix points :hmm:

Tony,

Thanks for the post. Our response to the point Ian Rout raised will be updated as a rule when our web designer returns from leave in late January. It was an circumstance that didnt occur last year so we werent aware of it.

Thanks,

Charles

Tony Dowden
07-01-2009, 01:34 PM
Tony,

Thanks for the post. Our response to the point Ian Rout raised will be updated as a rule when our web designer returns from leave in late January. It was an circumstance that didnt occur last year so we werent aware of it.

Thanks,

Charles

Thanks Charles. I've since spotted the relevant rules.

Charles
12-01-2009, 02:54 PM
good point, can a talented junior (or woman) who's rating happens to be below the cut-off for the premier gain grandprix points for this tourney ?

*edit* - why exactly is there a cut-off anyway. I just had a quick look through the thread but couldn't see it.

cheers
Garrett.


Hi,

For the Premier, the cut-off is designed to increase the opportunities for up and coming Australia players to achieve norms - either GM or IM. We achieved this last year with an IM norm (to an overseas player). Beyond National opens (which receive some exemptions), we have precious few tournaments in Australia that are setup for the conditions that are needed to allow our players to achieve title norms. This is something we want to rectify as organisers so our players can get some norms at home!

For the major the cutoff is because players indicated they wanted a tournament where they could play competative games virtually from the first round.

The rules of the Grand Prix do not allow distribution of points over multiple tournaments so we have chosen the tournaments that are most appropriate to the Grand Prix rating groups.

ER
12-01-2009, 08:42 PM
I see there is already a substantial number of overseas participants? What's the tournament's record in terms of international participation? the respective any other Aus tournament record?
CAGLES!

Charles
13-01-2009, 10:32 AM
I see there is already a substantial number of overseas participants? What's the tournament's record in terms of international participation? the respective any other Aus tournament record?
CAGLES!

Hi,

Couldnt really say with regards to numbers of overseas players historically. I know that we had 24 overseas registered players in the Premier last year but some of them are Australian based.

Our focus on the Premier is to attract 20 overseas FIDE rated players of which 10 are titled to meet norming requirements. I believe the 8 GM's we had last year was a record for the Doeberl equalling the number in 2007. We hope to go one or two up on that this year. More titled players are really just a matter of attracting more sponsorship as we have had more interest from overseas GM's than we can satisfy this year. We have a comprehensive sponsors package now based on the results of last year and so we just need to keep getting the positive messages out there.

Denis_Jessop
13-01-2009, 02:30 PM
I see there is already a substantial number of overseas participants? What's the tournament's record in terms of international participation? the respective any other Aus tournament record?
CAGLES!

The Tournament (Premier) didn't really worry too much about getting overseas participation until last year because until then it was run over 7 rounds and there was no question of anyone getting a FIDE norm. Shortly before that it had seen a marked increase in overseas participation on the back of the SIO which persists.

However, there have been three overseas winners:

Larry Christianson 1988
Ketevan Arakhamia 1991 (also the only woman winner)
Tony Miles 1992

DJ

MichaelBaron
13-01-2009, 03:39 PM
The Tournament (Premier) didn't really worry too much about getting overseas participation until last year because until then it was run over 7 rounds and there was no question of anyone getting a FIDE norm. Shortly before that it had seen a marked increase in overseas participation on the back of the SIO which persists.

However, there have been three overseas winners:

Larry Christianson 1988
Ketevan Arakhamia 1991 (also the only woman winner)
Tony Miles 1992

DJ

Actually, I think Tony Miles was living in Oz in the early 1990's so he was "as overseas" as Dejan Antic is now

Metro
13-01-2009, 03:45 PM
Actually, I think Tony Miles was living in Oz in the early 1990's so he was "as overseas" as Dejan Antic is now
I can remember, in the 1991-92 Aus.Championship,someone asking him if he was going to live in Australia.He said,"Perhaps".

ER
13-01-2009, 07:49 PM
... The Tournament (Premier) didn't really worry too much about getting overseas participation until last year because until then it was run over 7 rounds and there was no question of anyone getting a FIDE norm. Shortly before that it had seen a marked increase in overseas participation on the back of the SIO which persists ...
DJ

thanks Denis

Charles
13-01-2009, 08:17 PM
Hi,

On the subject of attracting overseas players we are doing alot more with direct marketing as time goes by. Our newsletters are making it all over the world (we just had our first overseas entrant for the T Shirt competition from a professional artist).

The videos we produced last year were on the chess vibes site and continue to get good numbers on the you tube subscription services. We have also sent a large number of business cards to tournaments in india and europe to bring people direct to the website. We are getting lots of contact through the three tournaments concept of a chess holiday (I even had someone ask if we provided a booking service for full airfares, accommodation etc for Bangkok, Doeberl, and SIO) - maybe a business idea there for someone. :D

Google analytics is confirming the international audience we are attracting and gives us numerical data to speak to sponsors with. We are convinced that if people can have a consistent service they will be more likely to come and play as part of an overseas holiday. Our approach is to address this over a 5 to 10 year period rather than a year by year basis. Anyone who is interested in our sponsors report from last year just let me know and I can get you a copy.

Denis_Jessop
13-01-2009, 10:23 PM
Actually, I think Tony Miles was living in Oz in the early 1990's so he was "as overseas" as Dejan Antic is now

I don't think that is quite right except to the extent that Dejan Antic is now back in Serbia as far as I know and won't be returning here unless he can obtain the visa he is seeking.

DJ

MichaelBaron
14-01-2009, 10:48 AM
I don't think that is quite right except to the extent that Dejan Antic is now back in Serbia as far as I know and won't be returning here unless he can obtain the visa he is seeking.

DJ

Orh i see, But Dejan is listed as an entrant for SIO 2009 :hmm: . Lets hope he will be back.

Denis_Jessop
14-01-2009, 01:58 PM
Orh i see, But Dejan is listed as an entrant for SIO 2009 :hmm: . Lets hope he will be back.

I hope so too. We are trying to convince the Immigration Minister to grant him a visa but we have to wait and see how that turns out.

DJ

ER
14-01-2009, 08:34 PM
Denis
There are a few quite infuencial people in the Hellenic Club who should be approached!
In private discussions that I had I have found that they are absolutely enthused with their Doeberl involvement!
After all attraction of GMs from overseas to the Tournament will result to another jewel in the crown for them.
I would suggest to make a move toward that direction!

PS I will PM you some more concrete suggestions soon!

CAGLES

Charles
16-01-2009, 02:48 PM
It looks like we have our first 2600 indian GM coming. We have received confirmation that 15 year old GM Parimarjan Negi is likely to be attending this years tournament. Our focus on India and China as likely sources for high ranking players appears to be working.

that Caesar guy
17-01-2009, 09:45 AM
It looks like we have our first 2600 indian GM coming. We have received confirmation that 15 year old GM Parimarjan Negi is likely to be attending this years tournament. Our focus on India and China as likely sources for high ranking players appears to be working.
That's great news. Another reason for me to play. This kid's a genius!
And yeah, it seems to be working like a charm.
Well done to the organizers.

JM

Charles
22-01-2009, 09:11 AM
Hi all,

The latest newsletter was released Wednesday. Anyone who would like a copy can sign up on the front page of the doeberl website www.doeberlcup.com.au.

ER
22-01-2009, 09:18 AM
thanks Charles!
How are you all guys going in the capital? Looking forward to see you all again! :)

Charles
27-01-2009, 03:55 PM
thanks Charles!
How are you all guys going in the capital? Looking forward to see you all again! :)

Hi all,

Things are rolling along nicely here in preperation. We had our first overseas T Shirt competition chess entry from a female chess artist! I will post her website here later - she has some interesting pictures.

We lost two GM's today (the Azerbijan pair) as they couldnt get their airfare subsidised but on a flip side in response to a letter mailout we did last year the norwegian embassy rang up on Friday to say they might be interested in supporting a GM. We also are still confirming the Dutch GM (it will be one of two) and we will know which one after 7th of February when Dutch club matches are complete. We have also made an accommodation offer to another Indian GM so we will see how that goes.

I am arranging a new introductory video for this year to complement our last years sheeeeeep paddock look and we think a bit more water might be in line this year.

Still not alot of interest in the 50+ but I have fingers crossed and we are going to do a marketing campaign to places where older players who maybe stopped playing a little while ago but could be tempted back might be - we will see how we go.

We might also have a junior sponsorship opportunity but that is still firming up. More information will be released in our newsletter should this come to be.

Still not able to crack the big sponsors but this year might not be the year to do it - still we will see. Anyone who wants a copy of our sponsors report from last year (10000 unique visitors, 17 newspaper articles, 7000 hits on the youtube videos etc) let me know as it is too large to upload here. We are using Google analytics this year to track this information in more detail.

Lastly to all you Premier players we will be cutting off at 80 players so get in early if you want to play. There will be some discretionary places left available but their focus will be on strengthening the tournament.

I will continue to keep you posted on updates.

Miranda
27-01-2009, 06:16 PM
We had our first overseas T Shirt competition chess entry from a female chess artist! I will post her website here later - she has some interesting pictures.
Her name is Carina Jorgensen, and her website is http://www.carinajorgensen.com/ She has pretty good pictures!

Fenguin
28-01-2009, 02:33 AM
I will definitely play!!! Just wondering, how many people usually play the Major? Also, this year looks like an extremely strong premier division!

Charles
28-01-2009, 07:22 AM
I will definitely play!!! Just wondering, how many people usually play the Major? Also, this year looks like an extremely strong premier division!


Hi,

We had 49 last year. They are listed at http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/DBL2008_results/2008major/.

In 2007 there were 44 in 2007. Details are on Ian Routs website http://www.ianandjan.com/ian/results/weekenders/2007doeberl-cup.htm.

In 2006 there were 53 players so it is pretty consistent. Older records are on Ians website. http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/results/.

We are happy with the Premier so far but would hope to see some more Australian IM's to strengthen the field - our long term goal is to put together a field one day which will allow a GM norm to be earnt!

Davidflude
28-01-2009, 08:43 AM
I have not attended the Doeberl Cup for some years but may do so this year.

If there is a seniors that would be great especially if it is a round robin. If there is no seniors I would play the major. But why does the major only have seven rounds? Why not make it the same number of rounds as the premier?

Afitz
28-01-2009, 06:45 PM
The 7 rounds allows for games to be played solely on the weekend whilst also allowing people to travel to and from Canberra. The Premier was extended this or last year (i can't remember - been out too long) to 9 rounds in order to create norm chances. I think that's right anyway - let one of the know it all's correct me if i'm wrong ;)

ER
28-01-2009, 07:34 PM
I have not attended the Doeberl Cup for some years but may do so this year.

If there is a seniors that would be great especially if it is a round robin. If there is no seniors I would play the major. But why does the major only have seven rounds? Why not make it the same number of rounds as the premier?

David
I am surprised that you of all people have not attended this wonderful tournament for a number of years.
It is a great tournament! I hope I will see you there this year!

Denis_Jessop
28-01-2009, 09:29 PM
The 7 rounds allows for games to be played solely on the weekend whilst also allowing people to travel to and from Canberra. The Premier was extended this or last year (i can't remember - been out too long) to 9 rounds in order to create norm chances. I think that's right anyway - let one of the know it all's correct me if i'm wrong ;)

That's right Andrew. It was extended to 9 rounds last year to allow for possible gaining of norms. The same reasoning doesn't apply to the Major. Also the tournament schedule allows players in the Premier to elect to take half-point byes for the two rounds on the Thursday in case they want to play only on the Easter weekend.

DJ

Charles
02-02-2009, 09:34 PM
Hi all,

With regards to previous discussions on the impact of rating changes on registered players, the rules on this have now been loaded to the rules webpage. Also note a typo has been corrected that conditions to enter the Premier are either a minimum rating or one of the titles listed. We have also included a zoomable map on the venue and the how to get here page. We have also updated some of the photos on the venue page to reflect action from 2009.

arosar
03-02-2009, 08:08 PM
Is that rego page secure? There is no indication that it is (i.e. https). I am reluctant to submit my details there unless it's secure.

AR

Charles
03-02-2009, 08:47 PM
Is that rego page secure? There is no indication that it is (i.e. https). I am reluctant to submit my details there unless it's secure.

AR

Hi and thanks for your enquiry. The registraton page is not on a secure server but any players who chose to pay by Credit card are transferred through to St George Banks internet gateway so all details of payments are secure. There is also the option of downloading the entry form (top of the registration page) and mailing it in with the entry fees.

Mischa
03-02-2009, 09:50 PM
James is hoping to play here and in the Sydney International (depending on finances and accommodation et.)
Will there be car pools organised for those travelling from Canberra to Sydney?
and if so can I be an early bird and request a spot for the kid?

Charles
04-02-2009, 05:20 AM
James is hoping to play here and in the Sydney International (depending on finances and accommodation et.)
Will there be car pools organised for those travelling from Canberra to Sydney?
and if so can I be an early bird and request a spot for the kid?


Thanks for the enquiry. If when you register for the tournament you can fill in the carpooling part at the bottom of the registration page we can make this information available in the newsletter and on the website to find a lift. We cant guarantee anything but were able to arrange alot of lifts last year.

Charles
06-02-2009, 11:59 AM
Hi all,

The winner of the T Shirt Competition is David Smerdon with Jason Chan receiving an honourable mention for his "I beat Roger Federer.... at chess". They will both receive a free shirt and David will be presented the prize at the Opening Ceremony. As we offered free entry to the winner and David already has free entry to the tournament we are providing him with a gourmet hamper as an alternate prize.

Davids winning slogan is "Chess Ninjas: We own the knight". We are currently finalising the graphics and shirts will be available for order from early next week.

Tony Dowden
06-02-2009, 09:48 PM
Hi all,

The winner of the T Shirt Competition is David Smerdon with Jason Chan receiving an honourable mention for his "I beat Roger Federer.... at chess". They will both receive a free shirt and David will be presented the prize at the Opening Ceremony. As we offered free entry to the winner and David already has free entry to the tournament we are providing him with a gourmet hamper as an alternate prize.

Davids winning slogan is "Chess Ninjas: We own the knight". We are currently finalising the graphics and shirts will be available for order from early next week.

Without wishing any disrespect to Australia's latest GM-elect: how about also doing a totally boring (read 'more conservative') slogan as well? Like "Doeberl Cup 2009"?

As an indubitably boring and an eminently conservative baby boomer - not into getting one's "rooks off" :eek: or being a "ninja" :rolleyes: - I would happily buy a Doeberl t-shirt with something totally boring on it :cool:

(Actually after last year's slightly dodgy slogan I'm a tad surprised this isn't already an option).

Charles
07-02-2009, 07:32 AM
Without wishing any disrespect to Australia's latest GM-elect: how about also doing a totally boring (read 'more conservative') slogan as well? Like "Doeberl Cup 2009"?

As an indubitably boring and an eminently conservative baby boomer - not into getting one's "rooks off" :eek: or being a "ninja" :rolleyes: - I would happily buy a Doeberl t-shirt with something totally boring on it :cool:

(Actually after last year's slightly dodgy slogan I'm a tad surprised this isn't already an option).


Tony,

Thanks for your post. As we did last year, shirts will also be available for purchase without the slogan. The purchase form includes an option to have no slogan which means we will just print the 2009 Doeberl cup logo in the top left chest position for these shirts or polo tops. We understand that the annual slogan will not be to everyones taste/desire. :D

Tony Dowden
07-02-2009, 10:42 AM
Tony,

we will just print the 2009 Doeberl cup logo in

But can't we have the really boring slogan option too? (By itself the logo doesn't mean all that much)

And, as the baby-boomer cohort also (roughly) equals the Bobby Fischer boom cohort [Rogers, West, Johansen, Solomon, etc] you might even sell more than one unit ;)

Charles
07-02-2009, 11:56 AM
But can't we have the really boring slogan option too? (By itself the logo doesn't mean all that much)

And, as the baby-boomer cohort also (roughly) equals the Bobby Fischer boom cohort [Rogers, West, Johansen, Solomon, etc] you might even sell more than one unit ;)


Tony,

Leave it with me. I will find out design and print costs and we will see what we come up with. If we do this it will probably mirror the tournament slogan - Doeberl Cup 2009 Get on Board. With a graphic maybe similar to last year with a half chess board and some pieces. We are always willing to listen to new ideas and see how they go.

ER
08-02-2009, 12:06 AM
I am a trendy baby - boomer, I like the "rocks off" "ninja" (have i spelled it ok the blessed thing?) stuff! :P :owned: Hey guys, this is only a joke! :) Let's start a count down, how many days left?

Tony Dowden
08-02-2009, 09:04 AM
Tony, We are always willing to listen to new ideas and see how they go.

Even really boring ideas?! Most impressive! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Tony Dowden
08-02-2009, 09:05 AM
I am a trendy baby - boomer, I like the "rocks off" "ninja" (have i spelled it ok the blessed thing?) stuff! :P :owned: Hey guys, this is only a joke! :) Let's start a count down, how many days left?

But you are way too un-boring ;)

ER
08-02-2009, 03:24 PM
But you are way too un-boring ;)

LOL trying hard!!!! Hey Tony, guess what!!!! I am coming down for the Tasmanian Open, and maybe for the Hobart weekender and Blayney [EDIT, EDIT, EDIT I MEANT BURNIE] Open. Now, if all things go well, I might be there for all of them!!!! If not, I ll be down in Tassie at least once this year!!! :) Now back to Doeberl, and as a quizzzzzzzzzz, hey organisers don't answer this:hand: :owned:
What's the name of the room GM Ian Rogers analysed games last year at the Hellenic Club.
The person who answers first will have a free drink (of their choice) on me!
The organisers will decide the winner! :owned:

Sorry Tony I hope you see this correction!

Ivanchuk_Fan
08-02-2009, 04:30 PM
The Aegean Room?

ER
08-02-2009, 05:12 PM
lol wait for the organisers's announcement IF:) Are you coming to Canberra?

Tony Dowden
08-02-2009, 05:28 PM
The Aegean Room?

Yes, its the Aegean Room :clap: :clap:

Tony Dowden
08-02-2009, 05:30 PM
Hey Tony, guess what!!!! I am coming down for the Tasmanian Open

Great, we're looking forward to hosting you ;)

Don't forget to introduce yourself to me at the Doeberl Cup will you?

ER
08-02-2009, 05:40 PM
I certainly will Tony! I think this time we 'll be able to organise a Chess Chat Forum's members get together!

Charles
08-02-2009, 06:13 PM
Yes, its the Aegean Room :clap: :clap:

And this year he will have his own room - the Orpheus room so noise from the analysis shouldnt flow over into his room.

ER
08-02-2009, 06:36 PM
I certainly will Tony! I think this time we 'll be able to organise a Chess Chat Forum's members get together!

Thanks Charles, IF if you come down we 'll have a drink (or 4-5 ;) ) together!!! Tony I meant Burnie and not Blaney in the related post! :doh: :)

Ivanchuk_Fan
08-02-2009, 07:49 PM
Thanks Charles, IF if you come down we 'll have a drink (or 4-5 ;) ) together!!! Tony I meant Burnie and not Blaney in the related post! :doh: :)

Thanks for the offer, but I'm not playing in the Doeberl Cup this year.

Tony Dowden
08-02-2009, 07:58 PM
And this year he will have his own room - the Orpheus room so noise from the analysis shouldnt flow over into his room.

That's an excellent innovation Charles :clap: :clap: Great for spectators and much less stressful for Ian who can concentrate on the job at hand and not have to worry about the environment.

Actually, one of the key reasons I've decided to come back to the Doeberl Cup this year is that I enjoyed Ian's commentaries so much last year :D

Garrett (see his 'Wow' post in this thread on Jan 6th) - and any other closet fans I don't know about :lol: - will be pleased to hear that I might even be able to play in the Premier rather than the Major if can get annual leave confirmed on the Thursday for Rds 1 & 2 of the Premier (for Garrett's further benefit: it looked like I'd used up all my leave allowance between now and Easter but now it looks I'll be able to swing something and get up to Canberra earlier).

ER
08-02-2009, 08:09 PM
Thanks for the offer, but I'm not playing in the Doeberl Cup this year.

There will be opportunies mate! I owe you one anyway! :)

Tony Dowden
08-02-2009, 10:05 PM
There will be opportunies mate! I owe you one anyway! :)

:hmm: Since Ivanchuk_Fan isn't coming to Canberra, don't you owe me the drink?! :lol:

ER
08-02-2009, 11:16 PM
Nop, :owned: I owe you two! :whistle: how about that? :)

Charles
09-02-2009, 03:27 PM
Even really boring ideas?! Most impressive! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Tony,

The fashion police we are not..... We have discussed it with the printers and there is only a small additional fee to setup another design. We will be having three options for the back of the shirt. Chess Ninjas, Get on Board, and no slogan. The designs for these will be released later this week to the website and in the newsletter.

Tony Dowden
09-02-2009, 06:18 PM
Tony,

The fashion police we are not..... We have discussed it with the printers and there is only a small additional fee to setup another design. We will be having three options for the back of the shirt. Chess Ninjas, Get on Board, and no slogan. The designs for these will be released later this week to the website and in the newsletter.

No worries Charles: the market for conservative, boring, non-psychadelic, never dabbled in 'this or that' babyboomers is probably limited anyway ;)

Many thanks for your patient and courteous response.

Tony Dowden
09-02-2009, 06:19 PM
Nop, :owned: I owe you two! :whistle: how about that? :)

OK, I'll catch up with you in Canberra :)

Charles
09-02-2009, 09:30 PM
No worries Charles: the market for conservative, boring, non-psychadelic, never dabbled in 'this or that' babyboomers is probably limited anyway ;)

Many thanks for your patient and courteous response.


Tony,

Well we shall see what response we get - the Get on Board option has been introduced at your suggestion as our attempt to appeal to a conservative, boring, psychadelic, never dabbled in 'this or that' class of chess player so all you conservatives out there can vote with your feet! :D

So I guess it is a flat out to the line race - ninjas against conservatives - I'll let you know the count when you get to Canberra.:D

Tony Dowden
10-02-2009, 09:19 PM
Tony I meant Burnie and not Blaney in the related post! :doh: :)

Got it already. Actually, I'd assumed you had had a touch of the Blarneys and got ahead of yourself ;)

ER
10-02-2009, 11:49 PM
lol good one! :)

Charles
11-02-2009, 06:07 PM
We are very excited to announce that we have secured a four year deal with a local Canberra resident who will privately sponsor a significant prize for the best Australian Junior in the Premier until 2012 (in line with O2Cís commitment to the event).

Mr Baldev Bedi has a passion and commitment for supporting junior development in sport. He has currently committed to providing a perpetual trophy and $1000 to the highest placed Australian Junior in the Premier for the next four years. We are also negotiating with him regarding other categories of prizes and will keep you updated.

The website will be updated shortly with the rules for this prize.

ER
11-02-2009, 06:14 PM
Congratulations to Mr Baldev Bedi for his highly commendable gesture! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Charles
13-02-2009, 03:48 PM
Hi all,

The T Shirt orders are now open with the order form released with the latest newsletter. The website order form will be up either today or early next week. T Shirt orders must be paid for and received by the 15th of march 2009. We will not be taking orders for the shirts at the event this year.

Tony Dowden
13-02-2009, 10:04 PM
Hi all,

The T Shirt orders are now open with the order form released with the latest newsletter. The website order form will be up either today or early next week. T Shirt orders must be paid for and received by the 15th of march 2009. We will not be taking orders for the shirts at the event this year.

Thanks for the reminder Charles :)

Look out for a Conservatives 1 :cool: - Ninjas 0 :doh: score-line in a week's time ...

that Caesar guy
16-02-2009, 04:04 PM
It looks like we have our first 2600 indian GM coming. We have received confirmation that 15 year old GM Parimarjan Negi is likely to be attending this years tournament. Our focus on India and China as likely sources for high ranking players appears to be working.
Where did he go? He was on the list last time I looked, has he withdrawn?

JM

Charles
16-02-2009, 06:04 PM
Hi all,

Four things to report.

Firstly the sad news, GM Negi has withdrawn from both tournaments over the weekend as he received an invitation to a closed GM tournament in France which clashed with the SIO dates.

On the good news front the T Shirt order form is now available from the front of the website for those that are looking to order a shirt. We are only taking pre-orders this year and they will close at 15 March so we have time to print for delivery at the tournament.

Thirdly, we will be adding extra hotel details for the Statesman (about 1km from the venue) who we reached an accommodation agreement with.

Finally the Hellenic club has replaced its upstairs Tratoria restaurant with an award winning Chinese restaurant so players have three choices - AlaCarte Bistro, Greek restarant or Chinese restaurant within the venue. We have agreement from them that the restaurants will open half an hour earlier (1730 hrs) to fit in better with round times.

Charles
18-02-2009, 12:25 PM
Hi all,

We have negotiated a rate for the statesman hotel which is about 1km from the venue. Details are on the accommodation link on the website.

Charles
22-02-2009, 08:06 AM
Hi all,

T Shirt on line order form is now in place - note that we need payment when we receive an order form and all orders are needed by the 15th of March to complete printing.. Also we went up a GM this week - GM Das from India and down an IM/WGM Sachdev.

Charles
25-02-2009, 03:17 PM
Hi all,

Just a couple of updates - we have just reached 100 entrants for the tournament. We also have the Premier over half full. It is now Chess Ninjas 4 - Over the board 1 but it is a while until the 15 March cutoff for shirts so we shall see. :D

Tony Dowden
25-02-2009, 08:08 PM
It is now Chess Ninjas 4 - Over the board 1 but it is a while until the 15 March cutoff for shirts so we shall see. :D

It looks like Doeberl 2009 'Over the Board' shirts are certain to become rare collectors' items.

Early offers anyone? :lol:

Charles
28-02-2009, 09:24 AM
Hi all,

Really exciting news that we have just received is that the indian chess federation is planning to send a mens and womens team to the tournament. Now that ups the competition for the Australian players and should help with norming opportunities. They are:

Akshayraj Kore IM
Deepan Chakkravarthy GM
Ratnakaran K IM
Neelotpal Das GM
Sriram Jha IM
S.Satyapragyan IM
Bharat Singh Coach

Krutika Nadig WGM
Nisha Mohota WGM
Swati Ghate WGM
Eesha Karavade WGM
Amrutha Mokhal
Bakthi Kulkarni
Pon.N.Krithika

R M Dongre Coach

black
01-03-2009, 11:34 PM
I have decided to play if I can find someone to share accommodation costs with me. I'd like to organise accommodation over the next day or two.

If you are interested, or know anyone else who is in the same situation, please let me know.

Also: I snore. (:

Charles
02-03-2009, 05:28 PM
There are 19 slots left for entry to the Premier.

Watto
03-03-2009, 09:45 PM
Hi all,

T Shirt on line order form is now in place - note that we need payment when we receive an order form and all orders are needed by the 15th of March to complete printing...
I might have to order another one. Doesn't exactly make me look glamorous but the one I got last year has turned out to be a great gardening T Shirt... slogan or no slogan. ;)

Garvinator
03-03-2009, 09:50 PM
I might have to order another one. Doesn't exactly make me look glamorous but the one I got last year has turned out to be a great gardening T Shirt... slogan or no slogan. ;)
Not sure if this is quite what they had in mind when the concept of chess tshirt design was thought up ;)

kjenhager
03-03-2009, 09:51 PM
For a chess tournament set on a cruise ship, "Man over board" would make an eye catching t-shirt slogan !

Miranda
03-03-2009, 09:53 PM
I might have to order another one. Doesn't exactly make me look glamorous but the one I got last year has turned out to be a great gardening T Shirt... slogan or no slogan. ;)
I have one chess T-shirt.. the only time I wore it was when I was washing my horse....

Watto
03-03-2009, 10:09 PM
I have one chess T-shirt.. the only time I wore it was when I was washing my horse....
Exactly the sort of thing it's made for I'd suggest... whatever works for you. ;)

Igor_Goldenberg
04-03-2009, 09:02 AM
I have one chess T-shirt.. the only time I wore it was when I was washing my horse....
Black? White? Or all four of them?

Desmond
04-03-2009, 11:04 AM
Black? White? Or all four of them?
:lol:

Miranda
04-03-2009, 11:17 AM
Black? White? Or all four of them?
:lol: I was actually washing a black and white horse....

Charles
06-03-2009, 05:33 PM
Hi all,

Good to see chess shirts being out and about on all kinds of activities and not stuck in other chess tournaments! :D . The details for the statesman hotel about 1km from the venue are now up on the web.

We have breached the 150 mark with 158 players entered more than a month out from the event. Trophies are ordered (nice shiny metal ones:cool: ) and we had four indonesian players enter last night. With 40 players who are registered with overseas federations it is a good interantional field.

Charles
10-03-2009, 08:49 PM
Hi all,

We have filled the Premier a little earlier than last year. Due to the number of titled and overseas players we have attracted this year we are going to allow an additional 10 entries into the Premier. The remaining twenty discretionary places will remain open. When the final 10 are filled we will close it for this year.

A reminder that horse washing and gardening :D shirt orders close on Monday next week to allow us time to get them printed.

Charles
13-03-2009, 11:59 AM
Hi all,

We have finalised the junior prizes that have been sponsored by Mr Baldev Bedi. The Bedi Cup for the Best Australian Junior is named after the sponsor of the Australian Junior Prizes, Mr Baldev Bedi a local resident of Canberra. The Pooja Cup for the Best Australian Female Junior in the Minor earns its name from the Hindi word Pooja which is related to dedication and belief and focuses on disciplining the mind to prevent it wandering about on different things. Pooja is also a very popular name for women in Indian, especially in the Northern areas of India.

Players must be under 18 years old on the day that their tournament begins to be eligible for Australian Junior Prizes. Prizes will be awarded in addition to any other prize money that is won. Should two juniors be eligible for a prize by achieving the same score they will share the Junior prize money on offer. All Juniors that are awarded prizes will have their names engraved on their respective perpetual trophies. These are the Bedi Cup for the Best Australian Junior and the Pooja Cup for the Best Australian Female Junior in the Minor.

Tony Dowden
13-03-2009, 05:52 PM
... Players must be under 18 years old on the day that their tournament begins to be eligible for Australian Junior Prizes ...
What is the rationale for deviating from the standard definition, that is, U18 on January 1?

eclectic
13-03-2009, 06:15 PM
What is the rationale for deviating from the standard definition, that is, U18 on January 1?

yes rule 5.3 of the grandprix rules ought to apply given that this is registered as a grand prix event

Bill Gletsos
13-03-2009, 06:53 PM
What is the rationale for deviating from the standard definition, that is, U18 on January 1?Correct.
That is the FIDE and ACF definition and the one used for the junior prize for the ACF Grand Prix.

Charles
15-03-2009, 07:24 PM
Hi all,

The latest newsletter is on the streets this evening. We have opened a further 10 slots in the Premier due to the large number of overseas and titled players that signed up this year. We will close the Premier Tournament at 90 players (discretionary slots will remain open to strengthen the tournament beyond this). Shirt orders also need to be all received and paid for by Tuesday evening so that we can begin printing.

I want to take this opportunity to thank my team of Emma, Lara, Nyssa, and Steve who are working to make this a success this year. :clap: So far we have managed to raise $8,300 from six sponsors to offset costs or supplement the event. While this is still substantially less than we need to cover the costs of the tournament it provides a substantial base to build from. Not bad in these economic times.

We are also paying a person to enter all of the games for the tournament this year. This was an area we did not do so well at last year so this should fix this up. While this provides little short term tangible benefit to players at the event we believe that it provides a significant investment to the Australian chess database and our goal with the Doeberl is to build Australian chess hence this investment.

We are also purchasing professional lightling equipment to improve the quality of the YouTube videos that we are producing. This year we hope to do more player profiles so that all of australia chess can get to know their players in more detail. We had to do alot of experimenation and threw away alot of video last year until we worked out formats that were easy to record and produce.

Lastly thanks to all the players who are coming. We had 183 entries four weeks out from the start of the Premier event - that excites me.

Charles
20-03-2009, 12:27 PM
What is the rationale for deviating from the standard definition, that is, U18 on January 1?

Tony,

Thanks for your query. The Doeberl Cup has always based its Junior entry fee on the first day of the tournament. The prizes are aligned with this. Additionally our approach to allocation of the prizes is aligned with the Grand Prix approach. The Grand Prix runs for a full calendar year and requires Juniors to be under 18 on the first day they can start accruing points towards the Grand Prix prize which is the 1/1 of each year. In the case of the Doeberl cup this is the first day of the respective tournaments that prizes are allocated within.

Look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks.

Bill Gletsos
20-03-2009, 01:55 PM
Additionally our approach to allocation of the prizes is aligned with the Grand Prix approach.No it isnt.

The Grand Prix runs for a full calendar year and requires Juniors to be under 18 on the first day they can start accruing points towards the Grand Prix prize which is the 1/1 of each year. In the case of the Doeberl cup this is the first day of the respective tournaments that prizes are allocated within.Sorry but you do not know what you are talking about as this is not the ACF Grand Prix ACF or FIDE approach.

The ACF Grand Prix and the ACF follows the FIDE approach that is based on the juniors age as at the 1st Jan and can entry and win any event within that calendar year in which the competition is held

Thus if a junior is under 18 as of 1st Jan 2009 then they are eligle to enter and win any U18 FIDE event that is held in between 1st January 2009 and 31st December 2009.

Tony Dowden
20-03-2009, 09:01 PM
Tony,

Thanks for your query. The Doeberl Cup has always based its Junior entry fee on the first day of the tournament. The prizes are aligned with this. Additionally our approach to allocation of the prizes is aligned with the Grand Prix approach. The Grand Prix runs for a full calendar year and requires Juniors to be under 18 on the first day they can start accruing points towards the Grand Prix prize which is the 1/1 of each year. In the case of the Doeberl cup this is the first day of the respective tournaments that prizes are allocated within.

Sorry Charles ... I don't understand :confused: I don't see any logical reason to deviate from Jan 1st - but its been a long week and maybe it will be clear to me in the morning.

Are you redefining the notion of a calendar year as starting on the first day of the Doeberl Cup? ;)

Yes, see you soon. I should know which event I'm playing in soon.

Kevin Bonham
20-03-2009, 09:49 PM
Seems pretty unusual to me too. Virtually all youth sporting events I have ever heard of take the junior's age from 1st of Jan in the calendar year when the event starts as a basis for putting them in age groups. I think this is the first event I have ever heard of that differs from this.


The Grand Prix runs for a full calendar year and requires Juniors to be under 18 on the first day they can start accruing points towards the Grand Prix prize which is the 1/1 of each year.

It has nothing to do with the first day they can start accruing points. If it did it could be taken from the date of the first actual GP event of the year - which is typically a few weeks into January.

Charles
21-03-2009, 09:56 AM
This site makes me laugh. As usual, people are throwing all kinds of smoke screens up etc and lecturing me on my ignorance.

It is really simple. As I previously stated, payment for Junior Entry to the Doeberl has always been whether you are under 18 on the day your tournament starts. The sponsor that is offereing $1500 in prizes wanted his prizes in line with that. I would like to thank that sponsor.

Tony, your original question was reasonable and the answer is above.

From now on I will only post information on the tournament, as the constant stream of "constructive feedback" cannot be good for the tournament.

People that would like questions answered about the tournament please email info@doeberlcup.com.au. I will answer them as quickly and as fairly as possible.

Bill Gletsos
21-03-2009, 10:32 AM
This site makes me laugh.That is good because you make us laugh. :lol:

As usual, people are throwing all kinds of smoke screens up etc and lecturing me on my ignorance.If you dont want to be called ignorant then dont display it.
As was pointed out your definition of junior eligibility is not the same as FIDE's or the ACF's.

It is really simple. As I previously stated, payment for Junior Entry to the Doeberl has always been whether you are under 18 on the day your tournament starts.That is fine and dandy.
It was your claim that your approach followed the approach of the ACF Grand Prix that was rubbish.

From now on I will only post information on the tournament, as the constant stream of "constructive feedback" cannot be good for the tournament.That all depends on you, because if it helps improve the tournament that is actually a benefit.

Capablanca-Fan
21-03-2009, 11:06 AM
This site makes me laugh. As usual, people are throwing all kinds of smoke screens up etc and lecturing me on my ignorance.
Usually people with far more practical experience and knowledge of the ACF and FIDE rules.


From now on I will only post information on the tournament, as the constant stream of "constructive feedback" cannot be good for the tournament.
More likely, "I've made up my mind; don't confuse me with the facts". The same sort of attitude surfaced with the newly invented draconian drawophobic rules, which included telling a GM that he was verboten to play a legal move, that caused much resentment.

William AS
21-03-2009, 12:04 PM
This site makes me laugh. As usual, people are throwing all kinds of smoke screens up etc and lecturing me on my ignorance.

It is really simple. As I previously stated, payment for Junior Entry to the Doeberl has always been whether you are under 18 on the day your tournament starts. The sponsor that is offering $1500 in prizes wanted his prizes in line with that. I would like to thank that sponsor.
Ignore the knockers Charles, your policy is right for your tournament and the ACF Grand Prix policy is right for that competition. The people who count, that is the players, are voting with their feet in your favour. The Doeberl Cup is a great event, brilliantly run, with a great atmosphere of friendly competition and held in an outstanding venue. I am surprised it has taken the knockers this long to notice your policy on prizes....how many years has the Doeberl Cup been running? By the way, the South Australian Checkmate Tournament has the same policy on junior prizes [Will be 10 years on July 4 & 5 this year] See you at Easter.:owned: :owned:

eclectic
21-03-2009, 12:15 PM
let's see if i get this right:

a junior who is 18 on the 1st of march can win junior prize money at the doeberl but will not necessarily win the junior grand prix at the end of the year because they will not get points as a junior from that same tournament under grand prix rules

Bill Gletsos
21-03-2009, 12:33 PM
let's see if i get this right:

a junior who is 18 on the 1st of march can win junior prize money at the doeberl but will not necessarily win the junior grand prix at the end of the year because they will not get points as a junior from that same tournament under grand prix rulesIf they are 18 on 1st March they cannot win the junior prize at Doeberl but they can win the ACF Grand prix junior prize.

What is worse is that a junior who is 17 on 9th April can win the $1000 Best Junior prize at Doeberl but a junior who turns 18 on the 10th April cannot win the $1000 Best Junior prize at Doeberl.
However both those juniors but can win ACF Grand Prix Junior prize and more importantly can win the World U18 title in Turkey in November 2009.

Bill Gletsos
21-03-2009, 01:18 PM
I am surprised it has taken the knockers this long to notice your policy on prizes....how many years has the Doeberl Cup been running?Before making such an uniformed statement, you need to check your facts first.

The Doeberl Cup brochures that were mailed out to people in 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007 make no mention that the best Junior prize went to those who were juniors only on the day the event started.

As such if this was the policy of the organisers it was not announced on the entry forms/brouchures.

William AS
21-03-2009, 02:11 PM
Usually people with far more practical experience and knowledge of the ACF and FIDE rules.
Irrelevant prats. :eek: :wall: :wall:

Ian Rout
21-03-2009, 02:45 PM
It's been a while since it mattered to me, but I was a little surprised to hear that juniors work on the horses' birthday model. I was under the impression that a junior was a player under 18, whatever they were at 1 January. Exceptions were for particular reasons such as world and Australian age championships (for administrative simplicity and so eligibility did not change with the date of the event) and the Grand Prix (so that status remained constant during the season, the same as for rating groups)

Possibly it really was that way whem I was a junior. I don't see any real benefit to allowing a player to retain junior status for the rest of the year after turning 18. Considering that a player probably starts gettin serious around the age of eight to ten this gives those fortunate enough to be born in early January an extra ten per cent or so of junior time relative to those born a few days earlier, which is a bit of a sinecure. Incidentally I believe the brochure for the Vikings Weekender, held late in the year when being 18 years and 11 months would otherwise be a real benefit, specifies a junior is under 18 years at the time.

Certainly in the broader community age-specific entitlements and obligations cut in at the time of achieving the age (voting, driving, age pension etc). I also doubt that anyone would advocate rejecting a 50-year-old for the Doeberl Seniors if they had been 49 at 1 January.


let's see if i get this right:

a junior who is 18 on the 1st of march can win junior prize money at the doeberl but will not necessarily win the junior grand prix at the end of the year because they will not get points as a junior from that same tournament under grand prix rulesThe other way round, I think. But equally the player can score junior GP events in the Doeberl but be legally allowed to drink in the bar at the Hellenic Club - it isn't especially interesting.

Denis_Jessop
21-03-2009, 04:53 PM
This site makes me laugh. As usual, people are throwing all kinds of smoke screens up etc and lecturing me on my ignorance.

It is really simple. As I previously stated, payment for Junior Entry to the Doeberl has always been whether you are under 18 on the day your tournament starts. The sponsor that is offereing $1500 in prizes wanted his prizes in line with that. I would like to thank that sponsor.

Tony, your original question was reasonable and the answer is above.

From now on I will only post information on the tournament, as the constant stream of "constructive feedback" cannot be good for the tournament.

People that would like questions answered about the tournament please email info@doeberlcup.com.au. I will answer them as quickly and as fairly as possible.

I find Charles' attitude here to be very odd. Apparently he just can't cope with criticism of any kind.

He also makes the completely unsubstantiated statement that something has "always" been the practice at the Doeberl Cup. I doubt that there is anyone in Canberra now bar perhaps Tony Wiedenhofer and Helmut Ackermann who can say what the practice was when the DC first began or for the following few years. I hope that Charles is not relying on the confidently put but often wrong assertions of his mentor Shaun Press as Shaun's involvement with the Doeberl Cup is comparatively very recent and thus equally limited. Charles' personal knowledge of the DC history is unquestionably limited and thus he is profoundly ignorant of its history whatever he may think and however reluctant he is to face the fact that neither he nor his associates are omniscient.

It's time for him to grow up and face that reality. Instead he prefers to regard anything with which he goes not agree as "destructive". That is no way to engender support from potential sympathisers.

DJ

Bill Gletsos
21-03-2009, 05:00 PM
Certainly in the broader community age-specific entitlements and obligations cut in at the time of achieving the age (voting, driving, age pension etc).They do not however in other sports.
Swimming and athletics dont base eligibility on the date on when the event is held.

Phil Bourke
21-03-2009, 05:58 PM
But in Charle's defence, I asked the same questions around our tournament time last year, and was told that FIDE and ACF had the Jan 1st cutoff, that NSWCA didn't have any policy regarding junior eligibility unless the NSWJCL had one, and that in the end each event organiser/s could make up their own mind as to what they regarded as good for them without contravening any of the above bodies rules. The only stipend that was offered was that if it were a FIDE event, then the FIDE rules would have to be applied.

If it helps, the same person I discussed this with, then asked why I hadn't collected the NSWCA membership from one of those juniors who had turned 18 between the 1st Jan and the tournament in September. I had, I think correctly, followed the theorem that this person was accepted as a member of the NSWJCL and was considered a member of that organisation until the end of the year, and this concurs with FIDE and ACF, so even though he was 18 and a half at the time of our tournament, he was still considered to be Under 18 :)

Though it is a distant memory, junior league ran under the rules of if you turned xx at some point, again from memory I think it was some date in Sept, you were ineligible to be in the Under xx competition. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong here, but this suggests that perhaps the age cutoff should be in the form of ensuring that all contestants are under the limit at the time of the event. It does defy basic logic to have an 18 year old winning an Under 18 event :)

So, it is easy to be confused by it all. :)

As I said at the end of all the above discussions, perhaps it is time for the ACF to make some ruling so that all events are run with the same guidelines, as now it is possible for a Junior to find that once he turns 18 in Feb, there are some events where he is classed as Under 18 and some that he is not! All the way through to Jan 1st the following year.

FWIW, I support a universal cutoff date for all tournaments, be that Jan 1st or Dec 31st or July 17th :) , though Jan 1st would be the most logical as it is the already accepted practice at FIDE and ACF level.

Denis_Jessop
21-03-2009, 06:57 PM
<snip>

As I said at the end of all the above discussions, perhaps it is time for the ACF to make some ruling so that all events are run with the same guidelines, as now it is possible for a Junior to find that once he turns 18 in Feb, there are some events where he is classed as Under 18 and some that he is not! All the way through to Jan 1st the following year.

<snip>

Phil

A lot of commentators on Australian chess and critics of the ACF don't seem to realise that the ACF has no power to make a "common rule" for the whole of Australia. It is restricted to making rules etc for ACF events which include the Grand Prix.

Thus we cannot make a rule fixing the date for junior status for all Australian chess tournaments. The power to regulate the vast majority of chess events in Australia rests with the State and Territory Associations. That is the factual situation though I am not asserting that it is the ideal or even the preferable one.

Any change in that situation would require amendment of the ACF Constitution which in practice is very difficult as was shown by our experience at the last National Conference in relation to a relatively non-controversial proposed amendment that was defeated.

DJ

Kevin Bonham
21-03-2009, 08:56 PM
This site makes me laugh.

Seems more like it makes you overreact.


As usual, people are throwing all kinds of smoke screens up etc

You provide no evidence of a smoke screen let alone an etc.


The sponsor that is offereing $1500 in prizes wanted his prizes in line with that. I would like to thank that sponsor.

Ditto. If a sponsor wants it that way then it is not such a big deal as would make one want to prefer a uniform approach at the risk of not receiving such sponsorship. But firstly we have the defence that it has always been done a certain way and now we hear that the sponsor wanted it that way. Given that you can know the second but may not reliably know the first, it might have been more sensible to lead with the sponsor's wishes as the reason for the condition.


From now on I will only post information on the tournament, as the constant stream of "constructive feedback" cannot be good for the tournament.

Well, the "constructive feedback" has already saved you from implementing an illegal (under FIDE laws) tournament condition on short draws. So perhaps you should be less defensive in response to it and realise that at least some of it is right.

That said, it is clear from some responses that the practice of taking junior prizes for events from the date of the event is a little more widespread than I was aware of.

eclectic
21-03-2009, 09:48 PM
may i make this point:

at the end of the year there are 2 prizes consisting of return airfares to malaysia (to compete in tournaments i would assume) which get awarded to the top 2 grand prix juniors in addition to the regular cash prizes

(i think there are 4 airfare prizes in all)

now what if due to discrepancies in the interpretation of the eligibility criteria for what constitutes a junior we ended up having heated arguments about who should have won such prizes?

Kevin Bonham
21-03-2009, 09:52 PM
Oh, there's no problem there. The ACF is perfectly clear about what the Grand Prix criteria are and the Grand Prix director, Brian Jones, is perfectly clear about it too. Just because one Grand Prix event uses different criteria for its prizes won't cause a problem with that.

Tony Dowden
21-03-2009, 10:38 PM
This site makes me laugh. As usual, people are throwing all kinds of smoke screens up etc and lecturing me on my ignorance.

It is really simple. As I previously stated, payment for Junior Entry to the Doeberl has always been whether you are under 18 on the day your tournament starts. The sponsor that is offereing $1500 in prizes wanted his prizes in line with that. I would like to thank that sponsor.

Tony, your original question was reasonable and the answer is above ...
Thanks Charles,

Sorry, I missed any earlier allusions to sponsorship. It all makes sense now.

I hope you didn't feel I was 'lecturing' you. And actually, 'this site makes me laugh' too. But isn't that the point once one opts to start blogging? I don't see any harm in being suitably pedantic, have a bit of fun and not taking ourselves too seriously. ;)

Mind, I have to admit I'm still getting used to the level of Aussie boisterousness here. (Despite my Australian heritage I think 40 odd years was too long to spend in the comparatively genteel environment across the Tasman). :lol:

For the record, you might like to know that the Doeberl Cup is easily the best organised and best run tournament I've ever participated in. And I have played in a fair few events - well over 100, maybe even 200? (A good question actually, it could take a fair while to work it out!). I've only played in the one Doeberl edition (2008), and I like plenty of variety so I would rarely travel a long distance to play in the same event again (especially not the very next year). But I'll definitely be at the 2009 Doeberl. :P

Cheers, Tony

Libby2
22-03-2009, 06:39 AM
They do not however in other sports.
Swimming and athletics dont base eligibility on the date on when the event is held.

Swimming certainly did when my eldest daughter competed. This was notable in an event that she swam in the day after her birthday. And to register for Little Athletics your age group was based on age on the first day of competition. As that first date is around September (and her birthday was July) she had many girls in her age group who were a year ahead in age and in school year.

The fuss is over what exactly? Does the way the prize is awarded make a material difference to the awarding of Grand Prix points? Wouldn't they be based on Grand Prix rules and have no bearing on the specific event prize categories? The same as the Grand Prix has it's own rating groups but events do not necessarily award prizes in those same groups.

Maybe it would be neater from a consistency issue to have a 1 January effective date but that is all it would be. It's not fairer or more accurate in any way. Just ask children born in December who compete all year against children with a January birthday.

Much ado about nothing. Oh and a chance to sledge people who don't toe the party line ... Isn't this actually the important bit:


the Doeberl Cup is easily the best organised and best run tournament I've ever participated in.

Or maybe nobody cares about that stuff. Or in hanging on to people who are trying to make that the case.

Bill Gletsos
22-03-2009, 12:41 PM
Swimming certainly did when my eldest daughter competed. This was notable in an event that she swam in the day after her birthday.When I referred to swimming I was referring to the world body FINA.
When it comes to actual swimming FINA regulations allow member federations to set their own rules. However eligibility into the Swimming events at the 2010 Summer Youth Olympic Games is not based on when the events are held but on year of birth (not date of birth).
Similarly for other sports regulated by FINA (Diving, Water Polo, Syncronised Swimming) it is not based on when the events are held but on year of birth.

And to register for Little Athletics your age group was based on age on the first day of competition. As that first date is around September (and her birthday was July) she had many girls in her age group who were a year ahead in age and in school year.I was referring to the world body, the International Association of Athletics Federations. Eligibility is not based on the date of competition but on the age at 31st December in the year in which the event is held.

The fuss is over what exactly?The fuss if anything was caused by Charles and his response in post #148.

Does the way the prize is awarded make a material difference to the awarding of Grand Prix points? Wouldn't they be based on Grand Prix rules and have no bearing on the specific event prize categories? The same as the Grand Prix has it's own rating groups but events do not necessarily award prizes in those same groups.

Maybe it would be neater from a consistency issue to have a 1 January effective date but that is all it would be. It's not fairer or more accurate in any way. Just ask children born in December who compete all year against children with a January birthday.

Much ado about nothing. Oh and a chance to sledge people who don't toe the party lineIf any sledging started it was Charles in his post #151.

Charles announed the prize in post #143.
TonyD questioned what was the reason it differred from the 1st jan definition in post #144
Eclectic pointed to the grand Prix rules in post #145
I noted that the 1st Jan defintion was used by the ACF, FIDE and the ACF Grand Prix.
Charles came back with a response to TonyD in post #148 that made a number of false statements in regards the ACF Grand Prix.
I pointed out his errors regarding the ACF Grand Prix in post #149
TonyD in post #149 said he could not see any logical reason for not using the 1st Jan definition.
Charles responds in post #151 with an overreaction dummy spit. In his second paragraph he gives the answer he should have given in post #148 of
"It is really simple. As I previously stated, payment for Junior Entry to the Doeberl has always been whether you are under 18 on the day your tournament starts. The sponsor that is offereing $1500 in prizes wanted his prizes in line with that." instead of his goobledegook concerning the ACF Grand Prix.

Miranda
22-03-2009, 12:56 PM
Does it really matter?

I notice that there are only adults bickering over the rules... I assume that most of us juniors really don't mind! After all, it is a junior prize, so it's not relevant to those who are debating it. It really doesn't matter... it's just what the sponsor wants, so let's just leave it at that instead of turning this tournament's thread into a battlefield.

Tony Dowden
22-03-2009, 01:35 PM
Does it really matter?

I notice that there are only adults bickering over the rules... I assume that most of us juniors really don't mind! After all, it is a junior prize, so it's not relevant to those who are debating it. It really doesn't matter... it's just what the sponsor wants, so let's just leave it at that instead of turning this tournament's thread into a battlefield.

Miranda, its just us oldies having a bit of harmless fun :lol: ... although for you, our idea of fun is probably like watching paint dry on a wall :eek:

Your point that it's what the sponsor wants is hard for anyone to argue against (but this point wasn't very clear until recently). Hope to see you in Canberra :D

Bill Gletsos
22-03-2009, 01:38 PM
It really doesn't matter... it's just what the sponsor wantsDid the sponsor approach the organiser and say I want to sponsor a junior prize and the junior must be under 18 at the start of he tournament to be eligible, or did the sponsor approach the organiser and say he wanted to sponsor a junior prize and the organiser informed the sponsor that to be eligible the junior must be under 18 at the start of he tournament as it is always been done that way and the sponsor went along with it.

William AS
22-03-2009, 03:31 PM
Did the sponsor approach the organiser and say I want to sponsor a junior prize and the junior must be under 18 at the start of he tournament to be eligible, or did the sponsor approach the organiser and say he wanted to sponsor a junior prize and the organiser informed the sponsor that to be eligible the junior must be under 18 at the start of he tournament as it is always been done that way and the sponsor went along with it.:hand::cool: Please stop making yourself look like a fool [I am sure you are not really]. Give this thread back to Charles:clap: and news of the Doeberl Cup.:wall:

Bill Gletsos
22-03-2009, 03:47 PM
:hand::cool: Please stop making yourself look like a fool [I am sure you are not really]. Give this thread back to Charles:clap: and news of the Doeberl Cup.:wall:The only one looking like a fool around here is you as it is your post that directly continues to take this thread away from the Doeberl Cup.

On the other hand my question is legitimate as it relates directly to a claim by the organiser.

Miranda
22-03-2009, 03:47 PM
Miranda, its just us oldies having a bit of harmless fun :lol: ... although for you, our idea of fun is probably like watching paint dry on a wall :eek:
If this is your idea of fun, I wonder what your idea of boring is.. :eek: :wall: :lol:



Your point that it's what the sponsor wants is hard for anyone to argue against (but this point wasn't very clear until recently). Hope to see you in Canberra :D
You will see me in Canberra! :D



Did the sponsor approach the organiser and say I want to sponsor a junior prize and the junior must be under 18 at the start of he tournament to be eligible, or did the sponsor approach the organiser and say he wanted to sponsor a junior prize and the organiser informed the sponsor that to be eligible the junior must be under 18 at the start of he tournament as it is always been done that way and the sponsor went along with it.
Back to my point... does it even matter?! :doh:

Bill Gletsos
22-03-2009, 03:50 PM
Back to my point... does it even matter?! :doh:Well the organiser makes one claim in post #148 as to why the prize is the way it is and when it is highlighted it is rubbish, switches to "the sponsor wants it that way" in post #151.

Oepty
22-03-2009, 04:15 PM
I
Back to my point... does it even matter?! :doh:

It does not matter. It is just a stupid debate, some people seem to have to pick up on even the most insignificant of mistakes.
The difference in dates has no real effect on anyone who has entered and possibly qualify for the prizes so far because none of them, unless my quick look missed someone, were born between the 1st of January and the 10th of April 1991.
Scott

Tony Dowden
22-03-2009, 04:43 PM
If this is your idea of fun, I wonder what your idea of boring is.. :eek: :wall: :lol:
:lol: You got me there!

Rincewind
22-03-2009, 04:47 PM
If this is your idea of fun, I wonder what your idea of boring is.. :eek: :wall: :lol::lol: You got me there!

twitter...?

eclectic
22-03-2009, 04:59 PM
twitter...?

twitter at least has signs of life in it unlike some other place we know :rolleyes:

Miranda
22-03-2009, 05:13 PM
Well the organiser makes one claim in post #148 as to why the prize is the way it is and when it is highlighted it is rubbish, switches to "the sponsor wants it that way" in post #151.
Yes, but does this even matter?! Just let it go - it's irrelevant anyway as Scott pointed out.

eclectic
22-03-2009, 05:18 PM
Yes, but does this even matter?! Just let it go - it's irrelevant anyway as Scott pointed out.

Don't take any notice of what Scott says concerning "useless debates"; why he has posted 46 times in the Does God Exist? thread! ;)

Oepty
22-03-2009, 06:54 PM
Don't take any notice of what Scott says concerning "useless debates"; why he has posted 46 times in the Does God Exist? thread! ;)

An excellent point

Watto
23-03-2009, 08:45 AM
199 entries are now on the website... :clap:
http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/registry/registrations/dynoutput

Capablanca-Fan
23-03-2009, 08:51 AM
Yes, but does this even matter?! Just let it go - it's irrelevant anyway as Scott pointed out.
Then why couldn't Charles have just let it go by telling the truth in the first place? I.e. the sponsor wanted it that way (if this is true), rather than all that guff that was proven false. Mind you, that explanation is a catch all for all sorts of things, like the appalling way they told a GM that he wasn't allowed to play a perfectly legal and sound move.

peter_parr
23-03-2009, 10:52 AM
Seems pretty unusual to me too. Virtually all youth sporting events I have ever heard of take the junior's age from 1st of Jan in the calendar year when the event starts as a basis for putting them in age groups. I think this is the first event I have ever heard of that differs from this.

When I first played in the London Junior Chess Championships in 1956 the cut off date for all age divisions was 1 September - the same date for each of the last 53 years and many years before 1956. The British Junior Chess Championships (now ECF) have the same September 1 cut off date for all age divisions in 2008 the same each and every year back to Stephen Kerr's (AUS) U18 1st Place in 1979, and Frank Parr's 1st place in 1935.


The Doeberl Cup brochures that were mailed out to people in 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007 make no mention that the best Junior prize went to those who were juniors only on the day the event started. As such if this was the policy of the organisers it was not announced on the entry forms/brouchures.

The entry forms for each year state "best junior". This has caused no problems over the last 46 years, so why complain when the current sponsor/organizer is simply following the tradition of the last 46 years. I played 5 times and was joint winner at my last attempt and was chief arbiter of the Doeberl Cup 20 times with no problems. Surely if nothing else appears on the entry form it simply means a player aged 18 years and two weeks is not eligible for the junior prize.

If the ACF wants all ACF grand prix events to standardize junior entries to 1 Jan and prizes in line with FIDE - and there is a case for doing so - the ACF could commence the steps required for future years. The ACF could also consider why the ECF are happy with no changes and maintaining 1 September for age of juniors.

It is more important at this stage to check the entry of IM Amon Simutowe (Zambia 2485).
He is listed as an entry to the Doeberl Cup 9-13 April 2009
He is listed as an entry to the Neckar-Open in Germany 9-13 April 2009
He is listed as an entry to the SIO 15-19 April 2009
He is listed as an entry to the Luanda, Angola International 16-26 April 2009 - first prize is excellent - 400,000 Kwanza.
It is well known that Mr Simutowe has done this before many times unfortunately.

Peter Parr IA

Charles
23-03-2009, 04:31 PM
Hi all,

Welcome to our 200th player - Stephanie (SiTing) Gu from Victoria. Peter your point is noted on IM Simutowe, I shall direct an enquiry to him to ascertain his intentions.

Kevin Bonham
23-03-2009, 04:37 PM
It is more important at this stage to check the entry of IM Amon Simutowe (Zambia 2485).
He is listed as an entry to the Doeberl Cup 9-13 April 2009
He is listed as an entry to the Neckar-Open in Germany 9-13 April 2009
He is listed as an entry to the SIO 15-19 April 2009
He is listed as an entry to the Luanda, Angola International 16-26 April 2009 - first prize is excellent - 400,000 Kwanza.
It is well known that Mr Simutowe has done this before many times unfortunately.

Peter Parr IA

:lol: Oh dear. I think this gives new meaning to the concept "simul"!

Ian Rout
25-03-2009, 10:20 AM
Re the question of the definition of "junior", I was amused to see a comment by an understandably anonymous poster on AR's blog who decries the range of "wacky" definitions and then goes on to propose
The simple and best answer is the age limit for juniors set by FIDE - "under 20 on 1 jan of the given year" !which is wacky on two counts - it would lead to "juniors" nearly 21 years old, and expands the range of definitions further since it currently isn't used for any club, weekend or ACF title event in Australia.

But wait, there's more. The benefit of this definition are that it would
allow Juniors to progress from local to national to international events in a normal fashionwhich also is wacky on two counts - there is no evidence that juniors (on any definition) experience any difficulty making such progression, and if they did then shoehorning them into a junior stream for an extra two or three years would only make it worse.

Charles
25-03-2009, 01:51 PM
Hi all,

Just a quick note that we will be making a decision on the Senior event by COB on the 1st of April. If we dont have 14 entrants by this time we will cancel the tournament and all participants will be offered a chance to move to a tournmant of their choice for which they are eligible. Players who have paid will also be offered the choice of a refund. The reason for a decision a week out is to allow players sufficient time to get accommodation refunds should they wish not to attend if there is no seniors event.

Thanks,

Charles

eclectic
25-03-2009, 05:23 PM
will you be making any announcements before midday? :whistle:

ER
25-03-2009, 06:36 PM
Hi all, Just a quick note that we will be making a decision on the Senior event by COB on the 1st of April. If we dont have 14 entrants by this time we will cancel the tournament and all participants will be offered a chance to move to a tournmant of their choice for which they are eligible. Players who have paid will also be offered the choice of a refund. The reason for a decision a week out is to allow players sufficient time to get accommodation refunds should they wish not to attend if there is no seniors event.

Be an oldie (50+)
Enter Doeberl (50+) for $80.00
You 'll end up with a nice $40.00 discount for entering either the Minor or the Major Tournament (paying $80.00 instead of $120.00).

To avoid the above possiblity, please adjust their entry fees to that the rest of us paid to enter the tournament!

William AS
25-03-2009, 07:02 PM
Be an oldie (50+)
Enter Doeberl (50+) for $80.00
You 'll end up with a nice $40.00 discount for entering either the Minor or the Major Tournament (paying $80.00 instead of $120.00).

To avoid the above possiblity, please adjust their entry fees to that the rest of us paid to enter the tournament!
Why did I not think of that? :doh: You must have a more devious mind than me. :uhoh: Maybe next year ;) .....but then again, rather risky. :) Good luck to them and it might help to get the numbers up to 14. :D

ER
26-03-2009, 06:29 AM
... You must have a more devious mind than me. :uhoh:
lol you need one of those to survive these days! :lol:

Charles
01-04-2009, 07:27 PM
Hi all,

Well we are one week out from close of entries. Good news is that the Indian teams have confirmed their arrival and we have 14 Indian players arriving in Canberra on Wednesday lunchtime where we will pick them up and transport them to their accommodation.

Unfortunately we only had six entries for the Senior tournament by the 1 April decision date and we will have to cancel this for this year. All players will be either refunded or transferred to an eligible tournament of their choosing. Given that we have alot of 50+ players playing in their strength eligible tournaments the market appears to be sending us a message that eligible players want to play in the tournament relative to their strength rather than a 50+ tournament. We will think on this for next year.

We have 223 entries at this stage which is close to the 229 entries we received last year with a week to go. Remember that all entries (except Under 1200's) close at midday on Wednesday the 8th and payment is required for all of these. This is to allow us to publish first round draws as soon as possible for all players to prepare for their games.

We will also publish in the last newsletter (out tomorrow) a mobile number for players to register on if they are running late (suggested by players last year). This mobile will be turned on after midday. A big thank you to Bill Egan who provided history of Doeberl information for us for this years series of newsletters.

Other improvements we will be implementing include:

Access to the stage area
Relocation of the wireless internet point
A blogging/games recording area
We have purchased professional video lighting equipment to improve the analysis video quality
We have dedicated location for video shooting and improved compression software/hardware.


See all players next week! Lets hope we have as much fun as it was this year.

ER
01-04-2009, 08:26 PM
Hi all,....
Unfortunately we only had six entries for the Senior tournament by the 1 April decision date and we will have to cancel this for this year. All players will be either refunded or transferred to an eligible tournament of their choosing. Given that we have alot of 50+ players playing in their strength eligible tournaments the market appears to be sending us a message that eligible players want to play in the tournament relative to their strength rather than a 50+ tournament. We will think on this for next year.

Hi Charles
Just in case you haven't noticed...

Be an oldie (50+)
Enter Doeberl (50+) for $80.00
You 'll end up with a nice $40.00 discount for entering either the Minor or the Major Tournament (paying $80.00 instead of $120.00).
To avoid the above possiblity, please adjust their entry fees to that the rest of us paid to enter the tournament!
Have you done anything about that? It is still 1st of April!

Lakshman
02-04-2009, 07:07 PM
hi charles,
By when will the first draw be finalised and where will it be posted, will it be posted on the Doeberl Cup official website?thanks

eclectic
02-04-2009, 07:22 PM
read here:

http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/schedule.shtml

i would guess not until after player sign in

that way players don't have their time wasted being paired against a player who hasn't turned up

Charles
02-04-2009, 08:10 PM
hi charles,
By when will the first draw be finalised and where will it be posted, will it be posted on the Doeberl Cup official website?thanks

Hi,

Thanks for the question. We will adopt the same approach which worked successfully last year. Entries close on Wednesday the 8th at Midday for all tournaments except the Under 1200's and payment must be received by this time for the Premier, Major, and Minor. This is to allow us to develop the draw and post it on the website. The draw will appear under the results page. We hope to have the provisional draw up on Wednesday evening for the Premier and by Thursday for the Major and Minor.

ER
02-04-2009, 09:18 PM
Any particular reason for members of this forum not being informed about developments on the 5/0 chess 960 tournament?

eclectic
02-04-2009, 09:26 PM
Any particular reason for members of this forum not being informed about developments on the 5/0 chess 960 tournament?

the organisers are waiting for sponsorship from the closet grandmaster ;) :whistle:

Lakshman
03-04-2009, 05:43 AM
Hi,

Thanks for the question. We will adopt the same approach which worked successfully last year. Entries close on Wednesday the 8th at Midday for all tournaments except the Under 1200's and payment must be received by this time for the Premier, Major, and Minor. This is to allow us to develop the draw and post it on the website. The draw will appear under the results page. We hope to have the provisional draw up on Wednesday evening for the Premier and by Thursday for the Major and Minor.

:) Thanks Charles!!!!:)

Charles
03-04-2009, 06:55 AM
Any particular reason for members of this forum not being informed about developments on the 5/0 chess 960 tournament?


Hi,

Thanks for the post. There have been no developments that I am aware of, the details remain as advertised on the website. We will be running it on Saturday night from 1930 hours, there is $1000 guaranteed prize money and it will be $20 for adults and $10 for Juniors to enter. Same model as the Lightning last year.

ER
03-04-2009, 08:18 AM
thanks Charles, see you there next Friday!

Trent Parker
03-04-2009, 09:59 AM
Hi Charles.

I will be coming down on the train that gets into canberra at about 11.20 so i should make it for player registration.....but I dont wholly trust countrylink's on time running. So I'll make a note of a phone number and make a call if it looks like i'm going to be late.

Regards

Charles
03-04-2009, 06:36 PM
Hi Charles.

I will be coming down on the train that gets into canberra at about 11.20 so i should make it for player registration.....but I dont wholly trust countrylink's on time running. So I'll make a note of a phone number and make a call if it looks like i'm going to be late.

Regards

Trent,

No problems, all the details are in the newsletter just distributed to all players.

SHump
06-04-2009, 10:38 AM
I have just realised that I am not eligible for prizes 1st thru 5th for the minor tournament as I do not have a rating as yet ("Unrated players are only eligible to receive the unrated prize in the minor division."). There is a prize for highest unrated though. I am returning to OTB chess, after a break of more than 30 years. So I started with the Ballarat Open in March and the Croydon open last weekend. So 12 rateable games so far. But the next ACF rating list is 3 months away... hmm

Any clues as to the reason(s) behind this rule? As I am unrated, I cannot enter the major event. I will be asking the organisers as well.
Ta, Scott

BearDrinkingBeer
06-04-2009, 12:15 PM
Sorry if this has already been mentioned before, but will there be a lightning tournament? I can't find it on the schedule for the tournament.

Trent Parker
06-04-2009, 12:21 PM
I have just realised that I am not eligible for prizes 1st thru 5th for the minor tournament as I do not have a rating as yet ("Unrated players are only eligible to receive the unrated prize in the minor division."). There is a prize for highest unrated though. I am returning to OTB chess, after a break of more than 30 years. So I started with the Ballarat Open in March and the Croydon open last weekend. So 12 rateable games so far. But the next ACF rating list is 3 months away... hmm

Any clues as to the reason(s) behind this rule? As I am unrated, I cannot enter the major event. I will be asking the organisers as well.
Ta, Scott

Most tournaments have this rule because there was an Australian Minor or something where a player came in as unrated but won all games in the minor took the cash home then it was found that this player was infact a very strong player from overseas that should have been in the higher division.

As such Unrated players are not allowed to recieve any ratings prizes or prizes in a minor (or major where it specifies that the open is an open tournament i believe).

Put it this way..... everyone was once unrated..... so everyone has to pay their dues! :D

Trent Parker
06-04-2009, 12:31 PM
Sorry if this has already been mentioned before, but will there be a lightning tournament? I can't find it on the schedule for the tournament.
Apparently there is going to be a chess360 tournament instead of a lightning.

Bill Gletsos
06-04-2009, 12:33 PM
Sorry if this has already been mentioned before, but will there be a lightning tournament? I can't find it on the schedule for the tournament.Sort of yes and sort of no.

There will be a Chess960 (FischerRandom) Blitz tournament on the Saturday evening starting at 7.30pm

Kevin Bonham
06-04-2009, 12:46 PM
Any clues as to the reason(s) behind this rule? As I am unrated, I cannot enter the major event. I will be asking the organisers as well.

It's quite common for players without ratings to be unable to win ratings prizes (which includes outright prizes in minor divisions). The main reason for this practice is that sometimes a player is unrated in the ACF system but might (unknown to the organisers) be 2250 in some other country. This is especially an issue at big events like the Doeberl and SIO where there will sometimes be big delegations of unknown unrated players from the same overseas country.


I am returning to OTB chess, after a break of more than 30 years.

If your old tournaments were ever rated in Australia it might be worth checking the ACF master list (downloadable from http://www.auschess.org.au/ratings/acfrate.htm) if you haven't already done so - just on the off chance that you still have an old rating on file.

Trent Parker
06-04-2009, 01:20 PM
Who from chesschat is going to doeberl?

Jim_Flood
06-04-2009, 02:29 PM
Sorry if this has already been mentioned before, but will there be a lightning tournament? I can't find it on the schedule for the tournament.

As per this link to the Schedule,

http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/schedule.shtml

which, apart from advice that the Seniors Tournament has been canceled, has not changed since Charles Bishop's advice on 1 October 2008:

http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=8740

Garrett
06-04-2009, 02:36 PM
Who from chesschat is going to doeberl?

Not this year but next year if I qualify !!

Cheers
Garrett.

Miranda
06-04-2009, 02:41 PM
Who from chesschat is going to doeberl?
I am! :)

William AS
06-04-2009, 03:47 PM
Who from chesschat is going to doeberl?
Almost everyone. :D

ER
06-04-2009, 03:49 PM
Who from chesschat is going to doeberl?
Hey Trent, check us out here mate!
http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/registry/registrations/dynoutput

arosar
06-04-2009, 03:55 PM
Apparently there is going to be a chess360 tournament instead of a lightning.

Well, it's "Chess360" alright. I'm still getting head spins from that dumba*s decision.

AR

eclectic
06-04-2009, 04:10 PM
Well, it's "Chess360" alright. I'm still getting head spins from that dumba*s decision.

AR

i figured as much (http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=236446&postcount=202) ;)

that Caesar guy
06-04-2009, 04:31 PM
I dont thing there should be a Chess360 tourney. There should just be a lightning tournament; it's always enjoyable.

JM

eclectic
06-04-2009, 04:53 PM
actually i'm surprised players could not choose to play in either given there are so many players turning up for the doeberl even if it meant holding both events at opposite ends of the same playing hall

Miranda
06-04-2009, 05:07 PM
I have to say, I dislike chess960.

For someone who's hopeless at all parts of chess (openings, tactics, middlegames) it just muddles me up even more!

fritz
06-04-2009, 06:19 PM
I have to say, I dislike chess960.

For someone who's hopeless at all parts of chess (openings, tactics, middlegames) it just muddles me up even more!

what is chess960?

eclectic
06-04-2009, 06:22 PM
what is chess960?

fischerandom chess

the back row is shuffled the same for black and white subject to certain restrictions

there are 960 possible starting positions of which the normal chess starting position is one

fritz
06-04-2009, 06:25 PM
fischerandom chess

the back row is shuffled the same for black and white subject to certain restrictions

there are 960 possible starting positions of which the normal chess starting position is one

Oh, right. I have enough trouble learning normal chess than this stuff.

Miranda
06-04-2009, 07:11 PM
Oh, right. I have enough trouble learning normal chess than this stuff.
:lol:
the point is that there's no opening theroy, nothing to memorise or learn. it all depends on your skill rather than being a robot :)

Capablanca-Fan
06-04-2009, 07:38 PM
:lol:
the point is that there's no opening theroy, nothing to memorise or learn. it all depends on your skill rather than being a robot :)
The higher rated player is still more likely to win, because he normally has more strategical, tactical and endgame knowledge; opening knowledge is only a part of skill.

Miranda
06-04-2009, 07:40 PM
The higher rated player is still more likely to win, because he normally has more strategical, tactical and endgame knowledge; opening knowledge is only a part of skill.
Exactly - that's why I prefer lightning over chess960.

BearDrinkingBeer
06-04-2009, 09:03 PM
Exactly - that's why I prefer lightning over chess960.
Yes, I agree. But at least it's better than chess360.

Garvinator
06-04-2009, 11:39 PM
Yes, I agree. But at least it's better than chess360.
what is chess360?? I am familiar with chess960, but what is chess360??

eclectic
06-04-2009, 11:42 PM
what is chess360?? I am familiar with chess960, but what is chess360??

it's the type linda blair plays ;)

Trent Parker
07-04-2009, 12:44 AM
meh!!!! ggray meh!!! 360/960/160/15050505060

:D :D :D

Trent Parker
07-04-2009, 12:46 AM
Charles I have paid for Lance and Rory Chiddy for the U1200.... I cannot remember their DOB but i know its in september and they are twins.

As for the train comment I shall retract that as I now have a lift.

Ian Rout
07-04-2009, 09:12 AM
Weather forecast for those who haven't got around to looking it up - maximum temperatures 23-25, cloudy from Friday with "few showers" on Sunday and Monday. Very few if the Bureau's past record is anything to go by.

Overnight down to about 8 so bring your pyjamas.

There will apparently be some burn-offs this week so don't be alarmed at the smoke, if it's still around.

ER
07-04-2009, 10:08 AM
ok Thanks Ian for the weather report!
Checked list. Luggage prepared he he :clap: :owned: suffer those of you who doubted my organising talents :P call from airlines change of flight time :eek: won't affect rego times etc :clap: :owned: no pyjamas thanks, they get in the way (between me and the sheets that is) :whistle: Trent relax everything is going to be ok :D look forward to see you all there, have a nice, safe trip!

Miranda
07-04-2009, 11:56 AM
Luggage prepared he he :clap: :owned:
JaK, you're packed already?!
:doh: It's only Tuesday, you know.

fritz
07-04-2009, 12:02 PM
I have one chess T-shirt.. the only time I wore it was when I was washing my horse....

Did your horse get one too ?

ER
07-04-2009, 01:20 PM
JaK, you're packed already?!
:doh: It's only Tuesday, you know.
Miranda, I want to avoid other embarrassing moments, such as my last campaign to Ballarat, when I was still packing while already at the venue (late as usual) looking for my table, opponent, writing pens etc :) Oh by the way I found my packing list (the Ballarat one). I am preparing the one for Adelaide now! :whistle:

eclectic
07-04-2009, 01:23 PM
Miranda, I want to avoid other embarrassing moments, such as my last campaign to Ballarat, when I was still packing while already at the venue (late as usual) looking for my table, opponent, writing pens etc :) Oh by the way I found my packing list (the Ballarat one). I am preparing the one for Adelaide now! :whistle:

you require the services of justabutler and justavalet ;)

ER
07-04-2009, 01:24 PM
lol yep, justaminute!

Miranda
07-04-2009, 02:00 PM
Miranda, I want to avoid other embarrassing moments, such as my last campaign to Ballarat, when I was still packing while already at the venue (late as usual) looking for my table, opponent, writing pens etc :) Oh by the way I found my packing list (the Ballarat one). I am preparing the one for Adelaide now! :whistle:
How can you pack when you're already at the venue?

About 20 minutes before I have to leave I just grab a suitcase and put everything in it, and hope I haven't forgotten anything!

ER
07-04-2009, 02:24 PM
How can you pack when you're already at the venue?
You can when you discover that the thingy you are trying to record your moves on the scoresheet with is actually a toothbrush! :eek:

About 20 minutes before I have to leave I just grab a suitcase and put everything in it, and hope I haven't forgotten anything!
I tried that, my hopes (and prayers) did not work! :(

Phil Bourke
07-04-2009, 09:11 PM
What chances that Doeberl field will exceed 250? They already have 240!

Any one with figures from the golden heyday, what is the record number of competitors?

ER
07-04-2009, 09:34 PM
Hold on a sec boss, let me check the figures and I 'll tell you!

eclectic
07-04-2009, 09:35 PM
easily if you include the u1200

Bill Gletsos
07-04-2009, 09:38 PM
easily if you include the u1200The current 240 includes the u1200.

ER
07-04-2009, 09:39 PM
hmmm if the discounted entry oldies make the grade, maybe! As is, no way! Not by far though!
By the way Phil I can't get access to the Blayney website. If you have changed site could you add the new link please?

eclectic
07-04-2009, 09:45 PM
The current 240 includes the u1200.

i guess they might have to shuffle the numbers by including the fischerandom :doh: